Been passed over for promotion.

Hi.
Can anybody advise me on the following. I have been filling in for a supervisor fot the last couple of years and when the permanent position came up I applied and was passed over.

I took no financial gain for my time at it, just asked that a letter of appointment be put in my file in HR, when i accepted the temporary position. Now it seems that isn't there either

Being passed over was bad enough but now it seems I'm being royally screwed.

Is there anything in Irish employment law that can prevent the company from giving the position to someone else over me? A kind of squatters rights if you will?

Or has anyone else been in this situation?

Just a note, there was a change on manager a couple months before the permanent positon was advertised.

drunkmonkey

Were you appointed to the job, you mention a letter of appointment, why would you take the job but not a rise, after a few months of "filling in" you should have went and staked your claim.
Were you ever offered the job or had a chance to interview for it?

I was asked to take the position in a temporary capacity, but as they were not advertising it and it was a temporary position, they could not offer me a raise or a bonus for taking it on.

I said that was fine as long as there was a letter of appointment put into my file, figuring that it could only increase my chances of getting the permanent position if and when it came up.

When the permanent position did come up, there had been a change in manager and he knocked me out of the selection process in the first round.

drunkmonkey

Doing the job for over 2yrs could hardly be classed as temporary, who agreed to give you a letter of appointment when nobody could be appointed to the role? Have you had this out with HR?

Peregrinus

The short answer is that having acting in post for a time does not give you "squatters rights".

What it does indicate is that you weren't dreadful; if your performance had been unacceptable they would either have removed you and replaced you with someone else to act in post, or accelerated the process of holding a competition to make a new permanent appointment.

So, you weren't dreadful; your performance in the post was at least acceptable, and maybe more than acceptable. But, when they do get around to making a permanent appointment, that doesn't give you a right to the appointment. There can be a candidate who is better qualified, or ticks more boxes, than you do, and they are free to appoint that candidate.

My original manager is who I came to the arrangement with, and I have a copy of an email stating what we agreed to that he sent to the HR person that deals with our area.

I'm trying to figure where I stand legally before I head to HR to discuss it with them. But I have asked was the letter of appointment put into my file and I'm getting very off handed answers which are leading me to believe it was never put there, and I don't think the new manager will be very forthcoming in getting it put there for me.

So I am basically screwed.

In my opinion, I think had it been the original manager, it would never have been an issue. I would have gotten through to the second round and whether or not I got the permanent position it wouldn't bother me as much.

What I'm worried about now is that now I'll be percieved as the guy who did the job for 2 years and was not even put through to the second round of the selection process by his own manager.

I dont consider myself less qualified or experienced than the other 2 canidates that went for it. In fact the guy that did get the position was a guy I trained and has been of the line in an office job for last 5 years

Peregrinus

I agree; it's a pisser, alright.

Everybody understands and accepts, presumably, that you were acting in post for two years or so. Given that, they will expect you to be disappointed at being unsuccessful in the competition for the permanent appointment. They'll be conscious that it's the kind of think that might lead to to re-evaluate your future in the company.

From your point of view, this is not a good thing. They passed you over for this position, knowing that the result might be that you would think about leaving. That's obviously a risk they're prepared to run. And if they haven't already approached to to say "look, you didn't get the the post because [plausible reason referring to outstanding qualities of successful candidate] and we're sorry but that's the luck of the draw, always need to be fair to other candidates, etc, etc. But please be assured that we really value your contribution etc etc", then that's also not a good sign.

In other words, tread carefully. It's not unreasonable of you to open up a conversation about this ("Where did I fall short? Should I have done something differently? Is there anything I should do differently in the future?"). But this could be the start of a journey which leads to a parting of the ways between you and your current employer, and if that is going to happen you want it to be at a time, and on terms, of your choosing, so far as possible.

Still though, I can't believe that there is not some sort of protection for people in this position.

I was good enough to keep the seat warm for 2 yrs but not good enough to permanently hold it.

I'm sure that I'm not the first to encounter this and i know that having experienced it once, that I wont be the last.

Sorry for sounding bitter about it but looks like I've pissed away the last two years after passing up opportunities in other companies because where I am now, I've been 25 years.

It seems that is where loyalty gets you

JustAThought

You've been there 25 years and are not yet at paid supervisor level? Is your original manager who promised the letter still there?

You may not be permanent but at leaat if they close or make you redundant you will get more than everyone else - but that's pretty grim.

This is where being in a union and having things like demarcation would have come in.

Although if there were a strong union you might not have been able to move into the acting role without something formal like an acting up allowance.

davo10

theValheru853 wrote: »

Still though, I can't believe that there is not some sort of protection for people in this position.

I was good enough to keep the seat warm for 2 yrs but not good enough to permanently hold it.

I'm sure that I'm not the first to encounter this and i know that having experienced it once, that I wont be the last.

Sorry for sounding bitter about it but looks like I've pissed away the last two years after passing up opportunities in other companies because where I am now, I've been 25 years.

It seems that is where loyalty gets you

I vaguely recollect there being a legal requirement to advertise certain positions when they come up, and that applicants must be given consideration. I am open to correction on that.

If the position is automatically given to you, others may complain that they were unfairly treated by not having their application considered.

dudara

You are entitled to ask HR for feedback on your application, so I would take that opportunity. It will at least make them aware that you are disappointed at not progressing. At best, it will give you feedback points that you can work on.

JustAThought

JustAThought wrote:

You've been there 25 years and are not yet at paid supervisor level? Is your original manager who promised the letter still there?

No. He left about 4 months ago. When the new guy took over he started getting all this sorted out.
I should have pushed to get it sorted before he left.

What was explained to me was that as long as there was nothing extra financial to be gained, there was no need to advertise the temporary position.

At the time, when I was told I was getting the letter of appointment, I was happy with the situation.

Truth be told, I was probably very naive about the situation and never considered what would happen if the manager left.

bucketybuck

You spent two years working up without any extra wages or benefits and without ascertaining how long that situation was going to last!

You may be a little bitter and the company did take advantage of you, but the person you should be most critical of here is yourself.

The company has every right to appoint the candidate they want to appoint, of course they do, regardless of who has been filling the role for the past two years. Your best choice now is to take a step back and with a clear head evaluate exactly where you stand in this company and what you want to do next, but shouting about squatters rights and other such guff is only going to make things worse for you.

davo10

theValheru853 wrote: »

What was explained to me was that as long as there was nothing extra financial to be gained, there was no need to advertise the temporary position.

At the time, when I was told I was getting the letter of appointment, I was happy with the situation.

Sorry, no, I mean the permanent position which you were passed over for. I just googled it, it's a bit vague, public jobs must be advertised, jobs in private companies need not be advertised externally but should be advertised internally. From the couple of legal sites I read, just making someone who has doing the job temporarily, permanent, can cause trouble for the employer if they don't at least consider other applicants.

If you look at my previous posts you will see that i have said that I should have followed up on it and that I was naive about the situation.

But I hope you realise that I'm asking the question to find out where I stand. I presume you've heard of a thing called grandfather rights, which is a major thing on the technical side of my industry. I wanted to know was there a legal equivalent. I wasn't shouting about sqautters right or anything of the sort. I was asking if anyone could tell me where I stood. I used the term as an example.

Peregrinus

The short answer is that having occupied the position on an acting-up basis for two years does not give you a right to be appointed to it on a permament basis.

It does look as if the company has taken advantage of you. You should not have been left acting up for so long, and certainly not when you weren't being paid the rate for the job. It looks to me as though your previous manager let this slide, and the new manager has taken steps to bring an unfortunate situation to an end, but without paying too much regard to how you would feel about it.

This could be because they really don't care whether you stay or go, or it could be just another oversight - they have simply failed to think about how you will feel.

As dudara says, you are entitled to seek HR feedback on your performance in the competition.

Separately, you could open up a dialogue about feeling badly done by - that your loyalty and commitment has been taken for granted, and not adequately recognised. This might lead to, e.g., you being offered a bonus in belated recognition of your long period acting up, or some other recognition. Getting that would be a sign that the company values you, even if they have failed to make that clear in the past. Conversely, not getting anything like that would be a bad sign.

Wheety

Ask for feedback and if you don't think you can get over this and continue working for this company, start looking for a new job and use your experience in the higher position to help with any future interviews.

Dial Hard

theValheru853 wrote:

At the time, when I was told I was getting the letter of appointment, I was happy with the situation.

No offence, OP, but what difference do you think this would have made/would make now if you had it? You seem quite fixated on it but I can't see how it would have changed anything at all.

Mrs OBumble

theValheru853 wrote: »

I was asked to take the position in a temporary capacity, but as they were not advertising it and it was a temporary position, they could not offer me a raise or a bonus for taking it on.

They could have found a way if they needed to.

Re the letter: how could there possibly have been a letter of appointment if there was no appointment? That's just crazy-talk.

Trying not to sound mean here, but by areeing to the arrangement you proved to them that you are a fool. Or at least you were at that time, hopefully you've wised up now.

Best of luck with the job hunting.

vector

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

They could have found a way if they needed to.

Re the letter: how could there possibly have been a letter of appointment if there was no appointment? That's just crazy-talk.

Trying not to sound mean here, but by areeing to the arrangement you proved to them that you are a fool. Or at least you were at that time, hopefully you've wised up now.

Best of luck with the job hunting.

I agree with the above.

In retrospect, if you ever agree to "act up" again you should get the pay for that level... however I've been in this boat and one doesn't, instead one is happy to be given the extra duties...

My advice is start looking for another job.... your company (for whatever reason) don't think you are great, maybe they are right (maybe you didnt do a super job in the role) or maybe they are wrong... but either way a certain "respect" has been tarnished, you should quietly start looking elsewhere, but do NOT let them know you are looking...

Button_y

What happens with the person who has been newly appointed to the role starts. Do you effectively get a demotion back to your old job? If so who is currently doing that role, are they in a similar position?

What was the reason they never advertised the position originally?

If you don't know already find out why you didn't make the 1st round cut.

It really sounds like new manager wasn't happy with you and had an easy out because you never officially got the role. I suspect its a nudge to you to leave.

Lux23

The exact same thing happened to me. And I am still doing the job despite a person being in the role since October. It was a like it or lump it situation so I am just interviewing elsewhere.

Free-2-Flow

I found myself in a similar situation, I basically ran my area for 3 years, I've won an International award with my company.
Last year they advertised for a permanent supervisor, all the supervisors told me I had it in the bag.
A couple applied but none of my caliber and I thought it was going to be an easy win.

I didn't get the job.

They guy that got the job was the laziest guy to apply and had done absolutely nothing to justify him getting it.

After a couple of weeks passed I found out that he worked in the same company for 20 years as our Shift manager (Who also done the interviews) and still played golf with him on Sundays.

Everyone knows the truth and I feel like I was robbed, even when I work on his shift I still run it as he is clueless.

But that's Cronyism and they is nothing you can do other than bite your tounge incase your mouth ruins future opportunities.

drunkmonkey

Everyone saying leave isn't helping I think, they are 25yrs with the business. That's not something you just walk away from over one instance. I'd be upskilling before even dreaming of leaving. It's not that easy walk into a job when you've been in the one place so long unless you've had many varied jobs within the job.
I'd be going down the education/upskilling route to become more valuable internally even in a completely different role, see where people are making the money and maybe try and nudge into that field.
Go for any internal interviews if they look like a step up.

Professor Moriarty

theValheru853 wrote: »

If you look at my previous posts you will see that i have said that I should have followed up on it and that I was naive about the situation.

But I hope you realise that I'm asking the question to find out where I stand. I presume you've heard of a thing called grandfather rights, which is a major thing on the technical side of my industry. I wanted to know was there a legal equivalent. I wasn't shouting about sqautters right or anything of the sort. I was asking if anyone could tell me where I stood. I used the term as an example.

With respect, from an earlier post of yours: "Is there anything in Irish employment law that can prevent the company from giving the position to someone else over me? A kind of squatters rights if you will"

It might be worth your while consulting a solicitor if you can't accept what has happened but getting legal with them probably wouldn't be in your best interest. For what it's worth, fair or unfair, I don't think you have a leg to stand on.

Take emotion out of the equation and cast a cold eye on your situation. Assess your position using the principle of what is in your best interests. Choose between challenging the appointment, staying and getting on with your career or moving to a new employer. Then move on with your life.

Button_y

Button_y wrote:

What happens with the person who has been newly appointed to the role starts. Do you effectively get a demotion back to your old job? If so who is currently doing that role, are they in a similar position?

Pretty much I'm afraid

superflyninja

Crappy situation particularly when someone you trained was given the job. But I've seen time and time again that companies do not care a jot about this kind of situation. The company doesn't care how long you worked there or what you did above and beyond and usually it will go worse for you if you create waves. ITs a bit of a no win situation IMO. Sorry to say but the best option is probably to request feedback from HR about the interview and hit the job sites. It could be as simple as the new manager not liking you or the new manager simply liking the other candidates better or any of 1000 reasons.
Best of luck job hunting!

Just one to scratch down to experience I suppose.
Lesson learned, and apparently not just by me.
I will admit, I was fairly naive going into the situation.
Thanks all for the feedback

Professor Moriarty

theValheru853 wrote: »

Just one to scratch down to experience I suppose.
Lesson learned, and apparently not just by me.
I will admit, I was fairly naive going into the situation.
Thanks all for the feedback

There's a difference between being naïve and trying to do the right thing. I don't think you were naïve.

bucketybuck

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

There's a difference between being naïve and trying to do the right thing. I don't think you were naïve.

Two years acting up for free is nothing but naive.

campo

theValheru853 wrote: »

Just one to scratch down to experience I suppose.
Lesson learned, and apparently not just by me.
I will admit, I was fairly naive going into the situation.
Thanks all for the feedback

Try to take some silver linings from all this, you got 2 years experience that you can add to your C.V if you ever felt like moving on and now you are in a role that should be less stressful

pauliebdub

campo wrote: »

Try to take some silver linings from all this, you got 2 years experience that you can add to your C.V if you ever felt like moving on and now you are in a role that should be less stressful

I'd agree with this, unfortunately you were shafted so it's probably best to move on to something new. Use the experience to your advantage when applying for jobs. Try not to be bitter about it and put it down to experience. It does happen quite a lot.

evolving_doors

Free-2-Flow wrote: »

I found myself in a similar situation, I basically ran my area for 3 years, I've won an International award with my company.
Last year they advertised for a permanent supervisor, all the supervisors told me I had it in the bag.
A couple applied but none of my caliber and I thought it was going to be an easy win.

I didn't get the job.

They guy that got the job was the laziest guy to apply and had done absolutely nothing to justify him getting it.

After a couple of weeks passed I found out that he worked in the same company for 20 years as our Shift manager (Who also done the interviews) and still played golf with him on Sundays.

Everyone knows the truth and I feel like I was robbed, even when I work on his shift I still run it as he is clueless.

But that's Cronyism and they is nothing you can do other than bite your tounge incase your mouth ruins future opportunities.

Probably an aside but maybe a lesson for the OP too when the newcomer is trying to figure things out... Pull back and just do your own job. If stuff is about to hit the fan and it's on the 'usurper's' head then try and tactfully make yourself scarce or don't be so forthcoming with a decision the other person is getting paid to make.

evolving_doors

bucketybuck wrote: »

Two years acting up for free is nothing but naive.

In fairness there was the suggestion that the OP might get the permanency if they did the time, also the OP was taken advantage of by someone stating they would earmark him when in fact they didn't. Sometimes you take things in good faith from those you trust. I've seen a fair few shafted the same way.

bucketybuck

Gebgbegb wrote: »

In fairness there was the suggestion that the OP might get the permanency if they did the time, also the OP was taken advantage of by someone stating they would earmark him when in fact they didn't. Sometimes you take things in good faith from those you trust. I've seen a fair few shafted the same way.

Its not that, giving people the benefit of the doubt is not necessarily a problem. Its the timescale, you do it for a few weeks to keep the ship steady and give management time to get a few things sorted, not for two years free of charge.

evolving_doors

bucketybuck wrote: »

Its not that, giving people the benefit of the doubt is not necessarily a problem. Its the timescale, you do it for a few weeks to keep the ship steady and give management time to get a few things sorted, not for two years free of charge.

Aye, that's all easy to see now with hindsight and I don't think the OP would do it again so quick without T&C's .I assume it started out with the assumption that it'd be for a few weeks... then it became months... then the promises came. By then the OP thought they were still training themselves in for their job when it came up. Maybe when they were at that level they couldn't countenance the possibility of moving 'down' to their previous role again so wouldn't want to rock the boat in case they get sent back.

red ears

Gebgbegb wrote: »

In fairness there was the suggestion that the OP might get the permanency if they did the time, also the OP was taken advantage of by someone stating they would earmark him when in fact they didn't. Sometimes you take things in good faith from those you trust. I've seen a fair few shafted the same way.

How did the OP get that role in the first place, was there informal interviews? was he shoehorned into it? If so what did his co workers think of not getting the chance. Or was it made clear from the start this was only ever temporary acting up with no financial gain.