Liam Neeson calls for more integrated schools

steddyeddy

In Ireland and Northern Ireland particularly there's a focus on education in religion. The role of education has been minimised lately but it still stands that most of our schools are run by religious orders. I don't believe in segregating any children beyond how hard they work but I do accept that orders like the Jesuits have played a huge role in education. I had a Catholic education and it did me no harm. My grandmother was educated by French nuns and she got great benefit out of it. In Northern Ireland the segregation in schools might be prolonging sectarian divisions and a better case might be made there. What do you think? From the BBC.

Liam Neeson has called for more schools in
Northern Ireland to become integrated.
In a video released by the Integrated Education Fund (IEF), the actor asks
why children are not taught together.

Most children in Northern Ireland - 93% - are educated at schools mainly
attended by either Protestant or Catholic pupils.
Many schools do, though, have pupils from diverse religious and cultural
backgrounds.
However, only about 22,000 pupils, or seven per cent of the school
population, are taught in integrated schools.
In the video message, Neeson asks: "As Northern Ireland moves forward from
division, who do we look to for a future we can share?"

"Our children - so why do we continue to educate them apart? Different
religions, different backgrounds, different schools.

"There is another way," he adds.

"Protestants and Catholics, other beliefs and none, learning and working
together every day."

"Most people agree that educating children together is a better way forward
for our society - it's time to turn our aspiration into reality."
Transforming schools



The Hollywood star subsequently calls on parents to "transform" their child's
school into an integrated one.


Any new integrated school must aim to attract 30% of its pupils from the
minority community in the area.


The first, Lagan College in Belfast, opened in 1981 but the growth of the
sector has stalled in recent years.


Instead, many controlled or Catholic-maintained schools participate in
"shared education" programmes.


As part of that, pupils in separate schools can engage in joint classes or
projects.


In these, teachers and school governors from different schools can work
together to share best practice techniques.


There are also plans for a number of shared campuses like the one at
Lisanelly in Omagh, where a number of separate schools share one site.


Schools can change to become formally integrated as part of a process that
includes a ballot of parents to find out if a majority favours integration

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Totally agree with him.

I went to a Cahtolic school and, while it did me no harm, it did me no good whatsoever either. And considering the amount of lay parents in the country, I can't see what good it does anyone.

All kids growing up and learning together is a logical step to inclusiveness. Familiarity with, and exposure to other ways and diverse people is what kills bigotry.

iDave

Candie wrote: »

All kids growing up and learning together is a logical step to inclusiveness. Familiarity with, and exposure to other ways and diverse people is what kills bigotry.

Which is why the DUP will never let it happen.

darkpagandeath

Religion and schools should be separated. Co ed should be across the board also. Magic water should not be a reason to attend a school.

iDave

iDave wrote: »

Which is why the DUP will never let it happen.

It'll happen sometime, but not for a long time.

steddyeddy

Candie wrote: »

All kids growing up and learning together is a logical step to inclusiveness. Familiarity with, and exposure to other ways and diverse people is what kills bigotry.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in most of the UK religious education is the exception rather than the norm?

judeboy101

Another sjw peddling multiculturalism and social engineering. By all means give people choice, but don't try to sell them a pup.

Junkyard Tom

Can you imagine schools if the DUP decided the curriculum? Classes would include: sash making, flute blowing, lambeg drum beating, orange lily flower arranging, bonfire making, manhole angle-grinding etc.

darkpagandeath

steddyeddy wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but in most of the UK religious education is the exception rather than the norm?

COE is the posh schools.

steddyeddy

steddyeddy wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but in most of the UK religious education is the exception rather than the norm?

Yes, though much like Irish schools even the ones with a religious ethos will have a large intake of kids outside that. Irish schools are inclusive even though they're exclusive because they have to be.

It's an odd situation in Ireland where all kids are entitled to a State education, but most of the State sponsored schools are still entitled to exclude kids outside of the ethos - although I believe most of them don't.

I believe Muslim families are having trouble sourcing a State education for their kids in some parts though, which isn't a great situation for a few different reasons.

Junkyard Tom

I believe there's strong demand for places in Catholic schools in England whose students out-perform those going to regular schools?

NIMAN

iDave wrote: »

Which is why the DUP will never let it happen.

Or the Catholic Church.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I believe there's strong demand for places in Catholic schools in England whose students out-perform those going to regular schools?

Not really sure what youre saying here (if it's even true) as correaltaion is not causation.

NIMAN

Candie wrote: »

It'll happen sometime, but not for a long time.

Need more parents to send their kids to the closest integrated school, and if one isn't available, to put pressure on the elected representatives to get one built.

steddyeddy

Candie wrote: »

Yes, though much like Irish schools even the ones with a religious ethos will have a large intake of kids outside that. Irish schools are inclusive even though they're exclusive because they have to be.

It's an odd situation in Ireland where all kids are entitled to a State education, but most of the State sponsored schools are still entitled to exclude kids outside of the ethos - although I believe most of them don't.

I believe Muslim families are having trouble sourcing a State education for their kids in some parts though, which isn't a great situation for a few different reasons.

Thanks Candie. I was a curious about it.

Junkyard Tom

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I believe there's strong demand for places Catholic schools in England whose students out-perform regular schools?

There's a strong demand for all faith schools, I believe. I think they account for about 35% of all schools.

NIMAN

As someone who grew up in NI, I didn't really meet and integrate with members of the 'opposite faith' until I went to university.

steddyeddy

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Not really sure what youre saying here (if it's even true) as correaltaion is not causation.

I think Catholic schools are certainly perceived to be better. Demand follows this perception.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

sabat

Technically, Protestants (well the main denominations in the north anyway) are also Catholics. As anyone who's witnessed a tipsy Irish Prod let their guard down and let the prejudice come out will tell you, it's Roman Catholics they have a problem with.

darkpagandeath

NIMAN wrote: »

As someone who grew up in NI, I didn't really meet and integrate with members of the 'opposite faith' until I went to university.

Can I ask, Would it be evident that someone was RC or Protestant ? Would people socialize differently ?

Junkyard Tom

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Not really sure what youre saying here (if it's even true) as correaltaion is not causation.

I heard it on a radio show and I'm not aware of the details - I'm not trying to argue in favour of religious schools. I believe schools should be secular.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I heard it on a radio show and I'm not aware of the details - I'm not trying to argue in favour of religious schools. I believe schools should be secular.

Not doubting it to be fair - it;s more the causation/correlation poitn I was making.

I'd be more inclined to go by curriculum than by results when judging a school, though - whcih is why the educate together schools are always more interesting ideas.

red ears

The 30% protestants going to a catholic school would have an easier time than the 30% catholics going to a protestant school and that in a nutshell is the problem in Northern Ireland.

tina1040

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Not really sure what youre saying here (if it's even true) as correaltaion is not causation.

I have a family member in england who will have her 2 babies christened in time for enrolment at the nearest catholic school as it is well known that the catholicschools have a good reputation for education.

One eyed Jack

"Most people agree that educating children together is a better way forward for our society - it's time to turn our aspiration into reality."

That's not really saying a whole lot though that people don't know already. Most people do indeed agree that educating children together is a better way forward for society. They just disagree on what form of education and what direction that education should take. Every parent will have different standards for how they wish their children to be educated, which would be inclusive of, but not limited to - academically, socially, culturally and dare I say it spiritually or philosophically. As long as everyone else agrees with what they want for their children, everything's hunky dory. It's only human nature that every parent would want what they feel is best for their own child, which may well come at the expense of other parent's children's education.

The Hollywood star subsequently calls on parents to "transform" their child's school into an integrated one.

Any new integrated school must aim to attract 30% of its pupils from the minority community in the area.

I couldn't see how that aspiration could possibly be turned into a reality, not unless you wanted to get into "education quotas" and identity politics and remove parental choice completely from the equation, and even then "the minority community in the area", there may not be enough Hindu children or black children to fill the quotas, I mean, how would you even quantify who is and isn't a minority in a community and upon what factors would this be decided?  

O'Neill

judeboy101 wrote: »

Another sjw peddling multiculturalism and social engineering. By all means give people choice, but don't try to sell them a pup.

Jesus christ, my bull**** detector goes through the roof when anyone uses terms like 'sjw' It's like an internet term, no one will use it outside the internet.

O'Neill

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Face slap

darkpagandeath

O'Neill wrote: »

Jesus christ, my bull**** detector goes through the roof when anyone uses terms like 'sjw' It's like an internet term, no one will use it outside the internet.

it was coined by the SJW's it's not made up. Would white supremacist be made up and not usable ?

osarusan

They could do this:

Any new integrated school must aim to attract 30% of its pupils from the minority community in the area.

and still be one of these:

Most children in Northern Ireland - 93% - are educated at schools mainly attended by either Protestant or Catholic pupils.

I don't know much about the situation - are schools generally close to 100% one or the other? And if so, how much is that an outcome of towns and villages themselves being 'segregated'?

Gatling

Liam with all due respect someone who's been repeatedly in crap movies should learn how to read a script before talking about education

O'Neill

...

The_Valeyard

Gatling wrote: »

Liam with all due respect someone who's been repeatedly in crap movies should learn how to read a script before taking about education

Careful, I hear he has a particular set of skills.

JupiterKid

Primary and secondary education should be forcibly integrated in Northern Ireland. Different denominations going to different schools has prolonged the tribalism, hatred and bigotry.

The Catholic Church is actually the biggest culprit in this in refusing to secularise their schools.

NIMAN

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Can I ask, Would it be evident that someone was RC or Protestant ? Would people socialize differently ?

Shock, horror, but no.

When people are out socialising and having a bit of fun, they are actually the same.

However, its not the perception a lot of people in NI have growing up.

newacc2015

'State run schools' here are generally on church owned land. The schools are owned by the Church and the state merely uses them.

If we want to have non-Catholic schools, we are going to have to spend a fortune on building new schools. The fact is less than 100 students per year get turned away from Catholic Schools for not being Catholic. You can go to 'Catholic Schools' all over Ireland and see they are full of different religions.

The fact is religion plays little role in secondary schools anymore. Most dont teach religion and the ones that do have to do the BS one that you can't study Catholicism for ie in the JC religion paper, you have to write about major religions but Christianity. Religion at a primary school level could be diluted a bit more. But a lot of it is BS morality and loving others rather than the old testament God hates everyone religion classes like in the 1960s.

IMO the biggest issue facing schools which no wants to talk about is class. You have public schools in Dublin, where everyone is rich upper middle class students while others are just schools filled with children living in poverty. People are sending their children to Gaelscoils so their children don't mix with foreigners (these schools generally are multi-denominational).

Graces7

Many parents want a Catholic school for their children. They have the right of choice...

pickarooney

It's utterly bizarre that this should even be a question in 21st century Europe.

Is it right that little children are segregated and given different educational opportunities based on their religion and sex?

Of course not!

One eyed Jack

pickarooney wrote: »

It's utterly bizarre that this should even be a question in 21st century Europe.

Is it right that little children are segregated and given different educational opportunities based on their religion and sex?

Of course not!

How is it utterly bizarre? It's been this way in Europe for centuries, and will be likely centuries into the future. The question itself will keep coming up again and again, but at the end of the day parents will still make what choices they feel are in their children's best interests. Whether someone else thinks they're right or not I'm pretty sure isn't actually going to weigh that heavily on most parents minds when it comes to their own children's welfare.

beggars_bush

Graces7 wrote: »

Many parents want a Catholic school for their children. They have the right of choice...

there's shouldn't be a choice

every school should non denominational

why should muslim children go to a special muslim school, it reinforces their isolation

One eyed Jack

beggars_bush wrote: »

there's shouldn't be a choice

every school should non denominational

why should muslim children go to a special muslim school, it reinforces their isolation

Their isolation from whom exactly? Other Muslim children in a Muslim school where they are also quite likely living in a predominantly Muslim community?

I thought 2017 was all about people having choice?

"Choices for some, my choice for others"...

Something very 'off' about that.

tomwaterford

beggars_bush wrote: »

there's shouldn't be a choice

every school should non denominational

why should muslim children go to a special muslim school, it reinforces their isolation

Any state run/funded school should be anyways

Are Muslim brains different or something they need a special school

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Gatling wrote: »

Liam with all due respect someone who's been repeatedly in crap movies should learn how to read a script before talking about education

Showehorning in a classic ad homenium here - what's the quality of the movie scripts got to do with his viewpoint on milti-dominational schools...?

pickarooney

One eyed Jack wrote: »

How is it utterly bizarre? It's been this way in Europe for centuries, and will be likely centuries into the future. The question itself will keep coming up again and again, but at the end of the day parents will still make what choices they feel are in their children's best interests. Whether someone else thinks they're right or not I'm pretty sure isn't actually going to weigh that heavily on most parents minds when it comes to their own children's welfare.

Parents should not get to dictate that their local school refuses access to boys or Jews or whatever, nor that it allows them under the proviso that they be subjected to religious propaganda. It's mediaeval stuff.

lawred2

Candie wrote: »

All kids growing up and learning together is a logical step to inclusiveness. Familiarity with, and exposure to other ways and diverse people is what kills bigotry.

bigots don't tend to favour killing bigotry

A Little Pony

This doesn't matter anymore as most young people don't believe in God anyway or religion. So it is irrelevant.

steddyeddy

A Little Pony wrote: »

This doesn't matter anymore as most young people don't believe in God anyway or religion. So it is irrelevant.

Not really irrelevant is it. Northern Ireland is still deeply divided along sectarian lines. The belief in a higher being was never the problem. You complained about Catholic schools in Ireland previously, yet you could say the same of them regarding their belief in god. Dividing kids by belief and/or cultural identity Catholic/Protestant is a bit silly at this stage.

nozzferrahhtoo

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I went to a Cahtolic school and, while it did me no harm, it did me no good whatsoever either.

Indeed. The phrase "It did me no harm" is one I see in this discussion often, and other discussions such as "spanking children" and the like. It just seems incoherent to me. I fell off the side of a mountain once and amazingly "it did me no harm". I do not go around recommending people try it based on my escaping it unscathed

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Religion and schools should be separated. Co ed should be across the board also. Magic water should not be a reason to attend a school.

It it magic water or magic crackers that separates them?

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Can you imagine schools if the DUP decided the curriculum?

I liked a line recently, I think it was Have I got News for you, where they were talking about some KKK magazine and the presenter said "But it was not all murder and racism, there was some great articles on wood work and sewing in there too"

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Not really sure what youre saying here (if it's even true) as correaltaion is not causation.

Absolutely. Even if it were true we can not simply grab that "fact" and tout it as showing faith schools are better, or that catholic schools particularly are better. The actual REASONS for it being better would need to be researched.

As another user pointed out, perception is one big factor. If one type of school gets the PERCEPTION of being better then demand will go up for that school. And the school itself can then start deciding to accept more promising pupils, or some other criteria, that will over all push the results of the school up.

I certainly would not assume, or accept any bias driven outright assertions, that the specific faith formation the school employs was automatically the causal factor in the better performance.

sabat wrote: »

Technically, Protestants (well the main denominations in the north anyway) are also Catholics.

Micheal Nugent had a funny line on Radio once, which brought a lot of ire and complaints to the radio at the time I heard. Basically he was commenting on how Catholics do not really take the Eucharist that seriously any more, while a lot of the English do not take their Church that seriously any more either. And the line went something like "So basically most Catholics are functionally protestants and most protestants are functionally atheist".

Christopher Hitchens had a similar riff in a Q+A session where an audience member said he had a friend who styles himself as an "allegorical pagan" and was seeking a religion he could subscribe to and then proceed to not take that seriously. He asked if Hitchens could recommend one and Hitchens said "Well thats essentially what we are doing with Church of England".

If memory serves, and it does less and less these days, it was in the Q+A of the "Authors at Google" sessions.

Graces7 wrote: »

Many parents want a Catholic school for their children. They have the right of choice...

What is interesting for me though is that when I sit down and talk to people who want religion taken out of schools, the way they imagine it working, or the ideals they hold for how it would work in an "ideal society"..... tend to be structures that would INCREASE parental choice, not decrease it.

It usually takes the basic form of having a CORE education system and curriculum.... and a system of schools implementing them...... the entirety of, and the admission to, which is completely blind to the race, religion, and gender of the applicants.

The "choice" then comes in a modular extra curriculur fashion that is not financed in any way by the money allocated to that core.

That is a simplification and amalgamation of the VERY diverse set of ideas I have heard, but basically nothing about it is against "choice" and the modular fashion of it would actually facilitate or even increase it, depending on how it was done.

A Little Pony wrote: »

This doesn't matter anymore as most young people don't believe in God anyway or religion. So it is irrelevant.

Of course the question then becomes whether any of it has anything to do with religion at all, or is the segregation more about "Us and the other" rather than wanting to maintain any religious traditions.

It certainly is questionable how seriously anyone takes their religion or god belief any more. And the numerical disparities between those who identify as religious for census purposes and those in other studies or surveys...... is not so readily ignored.

It certainly is a "more and better research" needed kind of thing.

A Little Pony

steddyeddy wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

This doesn't matter anymore as most young people don't believe in God anyway or religion. So it is irrelevant.

Not really irrelevant is it. Northern Ireland is still deeply divided along sectarian lines. The belief in a higher being was never the problem. You complained about Catholic schools in Ireland previously, yet you could say the same of them regarding their belief in god. Dividing kids by belief and/or cultural identity Catholic/Protestant is a bit silly at this stage.

 I have no issue with Catholics who want Catholic only schools. If they want to believe in nonsense, let them. Most young people either don't believe in god or attend church and yet Northern Ireland  still has its social and cultural issues. 

You could throw every child together in NI and they would still take a side.

A Little Pony

Of course the question then becomes whether any of it has anything to do with religion at all, or is the segregation more about "Us and the other" rather than wanting to maintain any religious traditions. 

I was in a Catholic Church last year during a wedding and the one side all went up to eat something and cross themselves. It is funny seeing people believe in such nonsense still but there you go.