Sucklers, how many head to farm full time?

Dylan collins

how many cattle do you men farm

blue5000

Dylan collins wrote: »

how many cattle do you men farm

That thread is 6 years old, a lot of the posters are no longer here, I have started a new thread.

blue5000

To answer your Question, 50 cows with bulls finished and as I'm still building up after TB all heifers are calved down. V low costs here, weanlings on kale, red clover for some of the silage, own barley for feed. OH has some part time work.

jfh

blue5000 wrote: »

To answer your Question, 50 cows with bulls finished and as I'm still building up after TB all heifers are calved down. V low costs here, weanlings on kale, red clover for some of the silage, own barley for feed. OH has some part time work.

How do you find the weanlings do on the kale?
I take it they're out all winter?

Grueller

Calving 70ish here. Father knocking around full time and me about 30-35 hours a week. I have what would be considered high paid off farm employment and the father has the pension. Other half works full time.
With the other half working I reckon we could live off that number very comfortably, if we had our borrowings gone.
We sell all weanlings.

50HX

at a talk 2 years ago and a guy asked the question how many sucklers to leave the avg industrial wage as an income and the answer he was given was 110

Who2

50HX wrote: »

at a talk 2 years ago and a guy asked the question how many sucklers to leave the avg industrial wage as an income and the answer he was given was 110

That would be right if no sfp but a big sfp and two or three cows would work either.

jfh

Who2 wrote: »

That would be right if no sfp but a big sfp and two or three cows would work either.

Just out of interest what is the average industrial wage, 30-32k? Am I way off.

Farming & getting the average industrial wage would be far better than going out to work for it

Grueller

jfh wrote: »

Just out of interest what is the average industrial wage, 30-32k? Am I way off.

Farming & getting the average industrial wage would be far better than going out to work for it

Agreed as you would have none of the costs associated with going to work. Also would have tax reliefs that are claimable, along with other perks down as far as a few sticks for the fire.

Username John

jfh wrote: »

Farming & getting the average industrial wage would be far better than going out to work for it

That's debatable...

There are costs with commuting, and being PAYE doesn't allow the same tax flexibility...
But having off farm income has its potential merits too - pension, possible healthcare, possible chance of promotion, maybe greater job security compared with farming... all depends on the sector you compare farming with of course...

For me part time farming plus full time PAYE is the best scenario... best of both worlds... but everyone is different...

Also - I thought the average industrial wage was closer 35k now, but it's all what stats you look at too... I think I heard on the radio that average wage is Ireland is aroubd 45k, but the median is closer to 28k...

50HX

jfh wrote: »

Just out of interest what is the average industrial wage, 30-32k? Am I way off.

Farming & getting the average industrial wage would be far better than going out to work for it

On the night of the talk it was put down at 36k

_Brian

Dylan collins wrote: »

how many cattle do you men farm

Its not just numbers either..
If your planning on finishing stock you'll hold less cows.. if you plan on selling all weanlings them more cows can be held.. Seriously different skills needed for sucklers or finishing, lots of lads have lost their shirt presuming that finishing is just feeding them on a bit more..

Cow/weanling performance is an issue to consider, no point in 70cows and 15 empty every year or continuously turning out calves with no growth potential.

If your selling stock as weanlings then they need to be the type to grow on early of you'll be slaughtered round the ring... I think I saw details that the average weanling price in the ring last autumn was less than €700, selling in this price range and no matter what numbers you're carrying you'll never make a full time living..

I think diversification is key in farming to protect yourself and your farm from disaster drops in prices and bad weather.. Diversification can come in many forms from having sheep with beef to having an off farm job.. I was dealing with a farmer last week and he was talking about succession, he told me his son was training to be a driving instructor with plans to open his own single car school in their rural area.. Something you rarely see farmers operating along with their farm but it should actually work well when he takes over the farm. Hedgecutting/slurry/baling may be an option but I think they may already be saturated in most areas.. I suppose a good laying hen is a form of diversification of income streams

All eggs in one beef basket might be very risky.

J.O. Farmer

50HX wrote: »

On the night of the talk it was put down at 36k

The average industrial wage can be a misleading figure. For example I live and work in the west of the country. If I were to take the same job in Dublin I would probably get paid considerably more at least 25-30% more.
That said the cost of living in Dublin would wipe out any difference and financially I'd be worse off.
Given that there's about 20% of the population living in Dublin and say a similar percentage of the workers are there and allow that some other cities like cork are big areas with similar wages then it skews the average industrial wage upwards.
I'd say johns median figure might be closer to the figure to be considered. Even so it'll be hard gotten at sucklers or beef. The numbers might get so high would it be a one man operation and then you need more to pay the labour.

Bass Reeves

It is interesting when Teagasc talk about average industrial wages and drystock. It was all about viability. They never speak about level of BPS or GLAS. Sucklers or drystock are unlikely to be viable my unless you have a large land bank. The other question you then ask is will it be viable in 10.......20....or 30 years time. If we have learned anything over last 10 years is that efficiency and drystock do not lead to extra profitability.

So from the thread title what amount of sucklers for the average industrial wage. I would rather phrase the question in another way. What amount of owned land do you need to make a living off sucklers or drystock. At a guess you would need about 150+ acres. To future proof the operation for 10+ years you would more than likely be needing over 200 acres.

The question you then ask if you have a landbank of 100 acres in one section would milk not be a better option. If the land is split in parcels of 30-50 acres them maybe sucklers drystock are a better option but even a 50 acre section with another parcel with a mile may be more viable as a dairy operation. The other option is if you have that amount of land would it make more sense to sell the parcels and but a single bank of land 150 acres+ and go dairying.

blue5000

jfh wrote: »

How do you find the weanlings do on the kale?
I take it they're out all winter?

Approx 0.7 kg/day lwg. This winter was a lot better than last year though.

_Brian

blue5000 wrote: »

Approx 0.7 kg/day lwg. This winter was a lot better than last year though.

Nice numbers there!

kk.man

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It is interesting when Teagasc talk about average industrial wages and drystock. It was all about viability. They never speak about level of BPS or GLAS. Sucklers or drystock are unlikely to be viable my unless you have a large land bank. The other question you then ask is will it be viable in 10.......20....or 30 years time. If we have learned anything over last 10 years is that efficiency and drystock do not lead to extra profitability.

So from the thread title what amount of sucklers for the average industrial wage. I would rather phrase the question in another way. What amount of owned land do you need to make a living off sucklers or drystock. At a guess you would need about 150+ acres. To future proof the operation for 10+ years you would more than likely be needing over 200 acres.

The question you then ask if you have a landbank of 100 acres in one section would milk not be a better option. If the land is split in parcels of 30-50 acres them maybe sucklers drystock are a better option but even a 50 acre section with another parcel with a mile may be more viable as a dairy operation. The other option is if you have that amount of land would it make more sense to sell the parcels and but a single bank of land 150 acres+ and go dairying.

I know a guy who was in the 'better farm' programme and he did everything Teagasc requested to drive his margin. He has good land, stock and a worker. In the end for all the effort it made very little difference ...he now has a Dairy set up

larthehar

Has anyone quantified the Cost of Produce per kg ( dead weight for finishing systems, live weight for the rest)?
I think this should be a KPI driven by Teagasc rather than gross margin per ha.

Bass Reeves

kk.man wrote: »

I know a guy who was in the 'better farm' programme and he did everything Teagasc requested to drive his margin. He has good land, stock and a worker. In the end for all the effort it made very little difference ...he now has a Dairy set up

This is it on a nutshell you could be working a lot harder and with a lot more production with associated costs and be no better off and the headache of a large overdraft or loan to fund it. Margins are just too tight. When you look at beef prices it looks like they are back to 3.75/kg. That means an R+ bullock at 360kgs ( about 660 kg LW) will net about 1400 euro. What are the costs associated with his production and has much more efficiently is left. IMO at this stage reseeding is no longer a justifiable cost associated with beef production unless pasture are 30 + years old and even at that spraying for weeds may be a more viable option.

_Brian

Bass Reeves wrote: »

This is it on a nutshell you could be working a lot harder and with a lot more production with associated costs and be no better off and the headache of a large overdraft or loan to fund it. Margins are just too tight. When you look at beef prices it looks like they are back to 3.75/kg. That means an R+ bullock at 360kgs ( about 660 kg LW) will net about 1400 euro. What are the costs associated with his production and has much more efficiently is left. IMO at this stage reseeding is no longer a justifiable cost associated with beef production unless pasture are 30 + years old and even at that spraying for weeds may be a more viable option.

This is the stuff people need to see, the problem with profitability in beef isnt that farmers suddenly forgot how to do it in an efficient manner, its that the system have been constructed and controlled in a manner that the final price has been driven down and down but costs have steadily risen - its been the farmers margin that's been eroded from both sides to the current position where the production of the animals is essentially reaching a "break even" proposition and a fella might have direct farm payments left from himself if he's lucky.
Increasing numbers in a break even system is hard to justify !

Dickie10

I began to farm under my own herd number and name about 3 years ago. i have tried most of the beef systems in one shape or form.

i have about 16 suckler cows, i sell the bulls as weanlings at around 10 months. these cows calve from march 1st to around may 1st, good muscled limousioun bull used. the cows are simmental, limosouin, angus x friesan and whitehead. i find this a great way of finding out a good cow and bull mix. so far i find the simmental cow the best. leave very big growthy calves and seem to get the very best out of the limo bull. if i could source simmental x friesans for cows these would be my choice. the hiefers are kept to finish between 25-30 months all off grass, with some barley fed at grass.

i have also tried calf to beef with angus and whitehead calves, one problem is that they are very hard to grade in factory. angus slightly better. i have a plan this year to put my whitehead heifers in calf to angus/saler and sell as springers next january, would this be a decent market for these animals? would i get 1200 for these heifers in calf?

i buy in around 10 good quality weanling heifers each year mostly charrolais and limo to match my own. this is actuallly a decent low labour system, but also takes careful management like all the above systems they all have something new to be learned with regard to livestock and grass management.

one of my 20 acre fields was reseeded 5 years ago. i split this with 3 reels and stakes into 4 paddocks of 5 acres each. one of these is used for silage. i then use the other 3 and 4 come july to finish around 30-35 heifers at grass from july onwards. i find this rally effiecent compared to set stocking with the sheep. the heifers pile on weight if you can get them out around april 1st-7th.

the other cattle that are around 15-18 months in summer are grazed along with ewes and lambs. my suckler cows graze 3 paddocks of around 5 acres each.

at the minute its hard to say which sytem is most proftable, the good cows that have good heifer calves that i finsh are defintly the most profitable. maybe the calf to beef isnt bad either. but for an easy life weanling to beef isnt bad. my neighbour does store to beef. buying cattle at 900 to 1100 and hoping to kill them for 1400-1600. very low labour system

Dickie10

id love some advice on where to go with these sytems? at the minute im making money alrite but not sure where i can step it up. by right i should be milking cows as all the land is on the one block, but i never milked in my life and should i not be more effiecent wwith what im doing than get into debt at something i have no knowledge or much intrest in?

_Brian

Dickie10 wrote: »

id love some advice on where to go with these sytems? at the minute im making money alrite but not sure where i can step it up. by right i should be milking cows as all the land is on the one block, but i never milked in my life and should i not be more effiecent wwith what im doing than get into debt at something i have no knowledge or much intrest in?

Well that there just rules out dairying.. you need a gra for it or you'll hate every minute your milking..

As for stepping up beef, I'd be waiting to see some signs of where brexit is going or at least a timetable.. Loosing Brittan as a customer for beef will be bad, but if the timetable pushes that ten years down the road its a different matter..
Guy in the office was saying he thinks it will be pushed way down the road and then reasons found to extend the deadline so we could see no real change for 15-20 years.. its an interesting angle but I wouldn't borrow on the strength of it either.

Dickie10

luckily i have no farm debt, and i want to keep it that way. hopefully things will improve, surely if britain has a tarriff on non eu foodstuffs,than whats bad for beef could be good for lamb. maybe the days of lambs coming from northern ireland and mainland uk would be numbered. plus maybe we can get a bigger share of the french market, when uk is out. should we not be targetting countries in europe with a growing muslim population such as germany? do we send much lamb to holland and germany?