The great Irish land grab

Mr. FoggPatches

Just been listening to two of, what I can only describe as, the biggest f*ckwits on the radio discussing how Waterford county will be annexing part of south Kilkenny to accommodate Waterford city.
The Kilkenny TD/councillor/farmer spoke of identity, pride, land grabs, war and so forth while the other guy lorded it over him while still retaining the audio presence of someone that lives on expenses and has egg on his tie

In order to get a better quality of debate going, I ask you, the good patrons of ah, what you think of this debacle

I think the only way to smooth things out is for the Waterford folk to hold a feast, with turkeys, and invite all the Kilkenny folk.

Fairly typical "power" bull**** for Ireland. Irrelevant county boundaries stymieing any effort to progress.

Mr. Incognito

discussing how Waterford county will be annexing part of south Kilkenny to accommodate Waterford city.

Wont happen.

Go back to your rant however.

Galway_Old_Man

Treat it like the trouble in Crimea, sanctions immediately to be placed against Waterford.

Gaillimh1976

Was started by Alan Kelly when he was in government

He also had a plan for Athlone to move the Athlone Co Roscommon parts into Westmeath

99% of submissions were against the idea so it was cancelled, suspect the same will happen here

Would suggest you get as many people as possible to submit a letter objecting to it

Worked very well in Athlone - have a look at the 'Save Roscommon' Facebook page if it's still there

Hande hoche!

Lebensraum.

osarusan

I might be wrong, but I think something similar is an issue between Limerick and Clare.

The bridge over the Shannon in the suburb of Corbally marks the boundary between the two counties, but there is an issue over where the Limerick city boundary ends/should end, and which county council should be responsible for the area immediately on the Clare side of the brigde.

Can/should a city boundary overlap with the boundary of a different county?

The Backwards Man

Should be all renamed 'Down The Country Somewhere' and be done with it.

biko

Kilkenny can't stand in the way of progress.

CalamariFritti

I don't think it's about land grabbing. More about simple administrative issues.

Just to give a harmless example. Some of Waterford city is technically located in Kilkenny. So if someone living there would want to tax their car in the motor tax office they'd have drive up to Kilkenny instead of doing it across the road (Which they do anyway I believe). Stuff like that.

So you could argue it's about making life easier for the people. But of course there is also rates and taxes involved which is probably the real reason for any 'dispute'.

Minefield. And of course there's the hurling. I'm waiting to be called to arms any moment. :pac:

Mr. FoggPatches

CalamariFritti wrote: »

. But of course there is also rates and taxes involved which is probably the real reason for any 'dispute'.

You may be certain that that's the only reason politicians and councillors care.
And maybe the hurling.

Skylinehead

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Should be all renamed 'Down The Country Somewhere' and be done with it.

Everywheres down the country somewhere to you

pilly

Skylinehead wrote: »

Everywheres down the country somewhere to you

I think that was the joke. :rolleyes:

pawrick

Familiar with Athlone issue, for me it would make sense to have a single administrative area as currently the town and suburbs are divided between different council authorities.
The result at the very basic level is you have council trucks salting roads during icy weather up to an imaginary boundary while the trucks from the other county council drive miles to continue on their side. Even getting potholes fixed is a quagmire of trying to get the right council workers to fix their patch. This would be fine if it didn't happen in what is in reality the one town.
Local GAA and county councilors went ape over it though, cant see why it should affect the GAA if it was just an administrative decree and it has happened in the past in Athlone to include part of the west side of the town already but I can see how it would affect rates with Roscommon losing out significantly. If locals had any cop on they would realise that having a greater town population officially would increase it's importance on a county level.

gramar

biko wrote: »

Kilkenny can't stand in the way of progress.

Would it really be progress if Waterford got bigger?

riffmongous

As a proud, yet fair Kilkenny man I'd like to offer a compromise.. we will annex Waterford which will be renamed the parish of Lesser Ferrybank and each year one Waterford hurler will be allowed onto the subs bench for the All-Ireland, that way everybody wins (which is a feeling I guess waterford people aren't used to, but in time, as part of our glorious KillKennyKingdom they will)

tigger123

Isn't this how the second world war started? The "self determination" of Germanic people living in Eastern Poland?

Careful now.

DanielODonnell

Has anyone ever visited those places? I don't think I could point Kilkenny out on a map

pilly

DanielODonnell wrote: »

Has anyone ever visited those places? I don't think I could point Kilkenny out on a map

Really? :rolleyes:

deadybai

Theres been some serious trouble here the last few months and its only getting worse. I dont think people relise the extent of it

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2016/12/16/waterford-armed-forces-bombard-kilkenny-rebels-in-battle-for-ferrybank/

lawred2

why exactly can't a city straddle two country boundaries?

topper75

osarusan wrote: »

I might be wrong, but I think something similar is an issue between Limerick and Clare.

The bridge over the Shannon in the suburb of Corbally marks the boundary between the two counties, but there is an issue over where the Limerick city boundary ends/should end, and which county council should be responsible for the area immediately on the Clare side of the brigde.

Can/should a city boundary overlap with the boundary of a different county?

They eventually got off the fence after years of wrangling and deliberated to retain the status quo there. Clare Co. Co. could then 'fix the roads' etc. with some degree of confidence.

I don't know enough about the WD/KK situation to comment, but I would say don't let it drag on.

Skylinehead

pilly wrote: »

I think that was the joke. :rolleyes:

pilly wrote: »

Really? :rolleyes:

We can't repel sarcasm of this magnitude!

RobertKK

Waterford want some of South Kilkenny so they can get Belview port which brings in a lot of revenue for Kilkenny.

Basically it is aby Waterford so they instead of Kilkenny make the money from Belview Port.

Five miles down river from Waterford, Belview is the nearest major Irish port to mainland Europe, and is also within two hours of most of Ireland's cities. Originally based on the quays in Waterford, the port re-located to Kilkenny in 1992 to have more room for expansion.

Kilkenny County Council has invested financially in the port and the general industrial zone there. The local authority has carried out, facilitated and supported significant upgrades to infrastructure in the region, including to the road network, and the provision of facilities like the wastewater treatment plant and water supply scheme.

There are around 100 rate-paying properties operating in the so-called 'area of interest'. Among those that Kilkenny has facilitated in setting up is the Glanbia plant, representing the largest infrastructural investment in Ireland by an indigenous company since 1929.

Kilkenny has a partnership with the Port of Waterford company and the IDA. It says that Waterford City and County Council was repeatedly invited to join the partnership, but chose not to. Kilkenny says Waterford now wants to 'unjustly enrich itself' through the boundary review process.

The loss of the port and industrial area to this county would be a devastating blow. Belview accounts for about 70% of the Commercial Rates income of the €2 million generated in the 'area of interest'. That €2 million represents 13% of the total rates income for Kilkenny.

Income has increased significantly in recent years, and - in its submission to the boundary committee - Kilkenny County Council says it expects economic activity there to double in the next 20 years.

http://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/home/204543/Port-at-Belview-is-the-real.html
It is Waterford being greedy and jealous of what is not theirs to have. They didn't want to spend anything on the setting up of the port via a partnership, but they want it all for nothing now.

alchemist33

DanielODonnell wrote: »

Has anyone ever visited those places? I don't think I could point Kilkenny out on a map

Shur it's the one with the black and amber stripes.

riffmongous

DanielODonnell wrote: »

Has anyone ever visited those places? I don't think I could point Kilkenny out on a map

Do you even hurl, bro?

RobertKK

It also seems Kilkenny County Council are in a decent financial position, but Waterford is not, but the transfer of land would cost Kilkenny an estimated €110 million a year, between all forms of revenue it collects from the area from rates, local property tax, development levies and so on.
This would leave Kilkenny in a financial hole as Waterford could not compensate Kilkenny for the loss as Waterford have borrowings in the tens of millions and government would be very unlikely to as well.

I think Waterford see South Kilkenny as their means to solve their financial problems.
Waterford have plenty of land for expansion of their city to their west, but that is not the real reason for this dispute.

A Little Pony

Got worried for a second, thought someone was on to us up here!

Claw Hammer

RobertKK wrote: »

It also seems Kilkenny County Council are in a decent financial position, but Waterford is not, but the transfer of land would cost Kilkenny an estimated €110 million a year, between all forms of revenue it collects from the area from rates, local property tax, development levies and so on.
This would leave Kilkenny in a financial hole as Waterford could not compensate Kilkenny for the loss as Waterford have borrowings in the tens of millions and government would be very unlikely to as well.

I think Waterford see South Kilkenny as their means to solve their financial problems.
Waterford have plenty of land for expansion of their city to their west, but that is not the real reason for this dispute.

Who said there is a dispute. In 1898 it was decided that where an urban area straddles two county boundaries the smaller portion should be transferred into the county with the greater portion. This happened in a number of urban areas around the country. Wicklow was given some of County Dublin to keep Bray in one urban district for example. It is sensible and rational. I lived on a road once which was administered by two different authorities. The street lights on one part were maintained by one council and the rest by and other. The bin collections stopped in the middle of the road on one day and a different set of bin lorries came another day for the other houses. There is no reason not to have services administered by one authority in an urban area. In Norther Ireland the Six Counties now have no adminstrative significance at all. The can still play GAA and slag their neighbours.

RobertKK

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Who said there is a dispute. In 1898 it was decided that where an urban area straddles two county boundaries the smaller portion should be transferred into the county with the greater portion. This happened in a number of urban areas around the country. Wicklow was given some of County Dublin to keep Bray in one urban district for example. It is sensible and rational. I lived on a road once which was administered by two different authorities. The street lights on one part were maintained by one council and the rest by and other. The bin collections stopped in the middle of the road on one day and a different set of bin lorries came another day for the other houses. There is no reason not to have services administered by one authority in an urban area. In Norther Ireland the Six Counties now have no adminstrative significance at all. The can still play GAA and slag their neighbours.

The people opposed to it and the people who think Waterford should be given another part of Kilkenny.

Waterford already got Ferrybank from Kilkenny.

Look at New Ross and Rosbercon, one side is Wexford, the other side is Kilkenny, and neither side is looking to annex the other side.
Same with Carlow town which borders Laois, you don't see Carlow looking to annex Killeshin.

Waterford wants a part of Kilkenny several miles away so it can claim the port.
Belview Port is 9KM or over 5 miles away from Waterford City.
It is not about city expansion, that is the excuse used.

lertsnim

What difference does it make to anyone who controls what part. Is it all about hurling?

RobertKK

lertsnim wrote: »

What difference does it make to anyone who controls what part. Is it all about hurling?

It comes down to money at the end of the day.

lertsnim

RobertKK wrote: »

It comes down to money at the end of the day.

So no difference to regular Joe or Mary who go to work every day and pay their taxes?

RobertKK

lertsnim wrote: »

So no difference to regular Joe or Mary who go to work every day and pay their taxes?

It would mean that their would be an income shortage for Kilkenny county council, and it would mean a cutback on services the council provides for the regular Joe or Mary in Kilkenny who go to work every day and pay their taxes.

It would also mean why should a county bother investing in border areas of counties if the neighbour can simply look to annex it.
So for people in border areas of counties they might have the council less willing to invest money from the money it receives from businesses and the people of the county if they risk losing something they invested many millions in.
A transfer will mean businesses or the people of Kilkenny will need to pay more to the council to make up a deficit that would be needlessly created for Kilkenny.

CalamariFritti

RobertKK wrote: »

Waterford want some of South Kilkenny so they can get Belview port which brings in a lot of revenue for Kilkenny.

Basically it is aby Waterford so they instead of Kilkenny make the money from Belview Port.



http://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/home/204543/Port-at-Belview-is-the-real.html
It is Waterford being greedy and jealous of what is not theirs to have. They didn't want to spend anything on the setting up of the port via a partnership, but they want it all for nothing now.

Just out of curiosity I quickly skimmed through the proposal and the rebuttal and the most recent RTE article on the matter and something doesn't seem to add up.

Thee is a map drawn on the 'area of interest' which doesn't seem to come near that port afaik and the RTE article on the proposal states "It is recommended that the port at Belview stay in Co Kilkenny."

Am I wrong, am I misreading? Or are some people getting overly excited and exaggerating the thing?

Teebor15

RobertKK wrote: »

It would mean that their would be an income shortage for Kilkenny county council, and it would mean a cutback on services the council provides for the regular Joe or Mary in Kilkenny who go to work every day and pay their taxes.

So the income deficit for Kilkenny would come from losing the money from the affected area. But if the affected area is no longer part of Kilkenny then they don't need the money to spend on the area, Waterford will have to provide for it.

Or are you saying Kilkenny is using the money from that area to spend in the rest of the county. Is Ferrybank just a cashcow for Kilkenny to spend elsewhere as it certainly doesnt look like they spend it on anything in the area

Tornaxx

I hate when people bring things back to American stuff, but I will (for once). Isn't most of Kansas City in Missouri? Only a fraction of it is over the border in the state of Kansas. Would Waterford city, Co. Kilkenny be objected to (if it weren't for the money going to different city/county councils)?

RobertKK wrote: »

A transfer will mean businesses or the people of Kilkenny will need to pay more to the council to make up a deficit that would be needlessly created for Kilkenny.

I know this isn't the point, but wouldn't it mean that Kilkenny wouldn't have as much expenditure also? (Okay, it mightn't be the same value but it wouldn't be as if they'd be spending the same but getting less. Probably spending less but not receiving even more.)

DanielODonnell wrote: »

Has anyone ever visited those places? I don't think I could point Kilkenny out on a map

I think that says more about you than anything...

maudgonner

DanielODonnell wrote: »

Has anyone ever visited those places? I don't think I could point Kilkenny out on a map

You really should learn to read. 'Cause they write the placenames right there on the maps. Makes it so much easier.