When Authoritarians wave rainbow flags: The right to gay cake

Pete29

bubblypop wrote: »

So a Baker, who in their own personal life happens to be Of The Christian religion?
Absolutely nothing to do with his work. No such job as a Christian Baker.

I would consider a Christian baker a baker who is simply a Christian, but that's just semantics, I suppose. I doubt there's many people advertising bakery jobs as "Christian baker wanted"

Of course there's a lot of variety and people who consider themselves Christian and many of them may not even believe the same things or agree on the same theology.

[Deleted User]

Point is his religion has no bearing on his job. It should not have any influence over his job and should not affect the way he performs his job.

Pete29

bubblypop wrote: »

Point is his religion has no bearing on his job. It should not have any influence over his job and should not affect the way he performs his job.

Of course it has a bearing on his job. They're his beliefs and beliefs have an impact on how we behave and interact with others. You can argue that it shouldn't and he should just make the cake supporting gay marriage, but he doesn't support it. He feels strongly about it and doesn't want to support something he doesn't believe in.

Would you do something to support a cause that your beliefs stand in opposition to?

[Deleted User]

Pete29 wrote: »

Of course it has a bearing on his job. They're his beliefs and beliefs have an impact on how we behave and interact with others. You can argue that it shouldn't and he should just make the cake supporting gay marriage, but he doesn't support it. He feels strongly about it and doesn't want to support something he doesn't believe in.

Would you do something to support a cause that your beliefs stand in opposition to?

If it was my job then yes I would. I do.

His beliefs don't have any impact on his job. He should do his job without his religion interfering.
And because of that he should've done his job without his own prejudices discriminating against others.

Victor

When Authoritarians wave rainbow flags: The right to gay cake

You seem to be confused as to what an authoritarian is - "favouring or enforcing strict obedience to authority at the expense of personal freedom". Where various Christian groups have all the power and discriminate against people, including gay people, it is the Christians that are the authoritarians. The bakery is free to not add and religious or political messages, but it can't pick and choose.

There is a perfect out for the bakery in the following:

"On Ashers’ stance regarding the cake, Morgan said: “The supplier may provide the particular service to all or to none but not to a selection of customers based on prohibited grounds. In the present case the appellants might elect not to provide a service that involves any religious or political message. What they may not do is provide a service that only reflects their own political or religious message in relation to sexual orientation.”

They can say they (a) don't do any messages on cakes (b) the only messages they do are the ones they have already put on the cake, e.g. "Happy Birthday" or (c) only do messages based on standard patterns / stencils that they sell, e.g. the football, Batman, Frozen, etc. ones that are popular.

As regards other messages, there will be a variation:
* "Happy birthday" - generally commendable, unless you are trying to avoid cake. To not add the message would be considered odd for a bakery.
* "Support gay marriage"- generally considered inoffensive by the vast majority of the population. To not add the message (while allowing other messages) discriminates against a protected group.
* "White Power" - generally considered offensive by the vast majority of the population. To not add the message is to be commended. It does not discriminate against a protected group.
* "Kill the Papists" - prohibited as it is an incitement to violence. To not add the message is required.

Pete29

If it was my job then yes I would. I do.

Such as?

From time to time people do have to do or support things they disagree with, whether it's because of work, family, friends, etc - but can we honestly say, given we're in a position in which we can stay true to our beliefs, that we would choose to toss our sincerely held beliefs aside?

Pete29

Victor wrote: »

There is a perfect out for the bakery in the following:[QUOTE;102560343]"On Ashers’ stance regarding the cake, Morgan said: “The supplier may provide the particular service to all or to none but not to a selection of customers based on prohibited grounds. In the present case the appellants might elect not to provide a service that involves any religious or political message. What they may not do is provide a service that only reflects their own political or religious message in relation to sexual orientation.”

They can say they (a) don't do any messages on cakes (b) the only messages they do are the ones they have already put on the cake, e.g. "Happy Birthday" or (c) only do messages based on standard patterns / stencils that they sell, e.g. the football, Batman, Frozen, etc. ones that are popular.

I disagree with that, but if that's the law, that's the law. I think it's government overreach when the state can barge in and tell you what cakes you can and can't sell to whoever you want.

Edit:

favouring or enforcing strict obedience to authority at the expense of personal freedom

That's what happened in this case. The man who sued them favored the bakery be obedient to his wishes that they produce a cake they disagreed with at the cost of their own liberty.

Victor

Pete29 wrote: »

I disagree with that, but if that's the law, that's the law. I think it's government overreach when the state can barge in and tell you what cakes you can and can't sell to whoever you want.

The state controls many things for the public good.

howiya

Pete29 wrote: »

Of course it has a bearing on his job. They're his beliefs and beliefs have an impact on how we behave and interact with others. You can argue that it shouldn't and he should just make the cake supporting gay marriage, but he doesn't support it. He feels strongly about it and doesn't want to support something he doesn't believe in.

Would you do something to support a cause that your beliefs stand in opposition to?

They didn't feel strongly enough about it when they took the order and payment for the cake though. Did their beliefs change?

I think the fact they took the order proves that somebody in the bakery didn't have an issue with it and could have supplied the cake without making it into the story it has become

Pete29

The state controls many things for the public good

Agreed, but how is forcing someone to bake a cake against their will a public good?

Hotblack Desiato

Pete29 wrote: »

Christian bakery

Are there Christian dry cleaners? Christian plumbers? Or is it just in the field of baked goods where people feel the need to impose their private beliefs on would-be customers?

Pete29

howiya wrote: »

They didn't feel strongly enough about it when they took the order and payment for the cake though. Did their beliefs change?

I think the fact they took the order proves that somebody in the bakery didn't have an issue with it and could have supplied the cake without making it into the story it has become

Probably someone working on the till. The people who own the place ultimately get to decide, as it's their bakery. They offered him a refund I believe.

Pete29

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Are there Christian dry cleaners? Christian plumbers? Or is it just in the field of baked goods where people feel the need to impose their private beliefs on would-be customers?

There probably are. It's not imposing your beliefs on someone if you decide not to sell your labor or services to them.

Hotblack Desiato

Pete29 wrote: »

There probably are. It's not imposing your beliefs on someone if you decide not to sell your labor or services to them.

Problem for you is that's not what the law says.

Stasi 2.0

Pete29 wrote: »

I'The customer was politely told that it was Christian bakery and that producing such a cake, one endorsing gay marriage, was against his beliefs and declined to provide it."

They accepted his order only to decide a couple of days later they had a problem with it.

They should also have been sued for breach of contract.

Back in the day a lot of people were "politely" told "no dogs no blacks no Irish"

Pete29

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Problem for you is that's not what the law says.

The law, unfortunately, is sometimes unjust. It's amazing that someone people will support forcing others to work against their will in the name of equality.

Pete29

Stasi 2.0 wrote: »

They accepted his order only to decide a couple of days later they had a problem with it.

They should also have been sued for breach of contract.

Back in the day a lot of people were "politely" told "no blacks no dogs no Irish"

...and yet the Blacks and the Irish survived some how.

howiya

Pete29 wrote: »

Probably someone working on the till. The people who own the place ultimately get to decide, as it's their bakery. They offered him a refund I believe.

This is getting silly. They've 8 shops. Do you think there is that level of micromanagement? The people that own the business decide what cakes are made and what ones aren't?

They shouldn't take any orders/payments if they're going have to sit down and think about it after.

Pete29

howiya wrote: »

This is getting silly. They've 8 shops. Do you think there is that level of micromanagement? The people that own the business decide what cakes are made and what ones aren't?

They shouldn't take any orders/payments if they're going have to sit down and think about it after.

It's their bakery, they found out about it some how and stopped the order. I agree, they should just refuse up front from now on if they have a problem with it.

A Primal Nut

Akrasia wrote: »

Are you seriously comparing gay marriage to being a Nazi?

There are specified groups of people who are protected under the equality legislation. If the Bakery isn't prepared to follow the law, then they shouldn't trade.

Religious people are entitled to hold their personal religious beliefs, but not entitled to impose them on others.

Surely the gay couple are the ones imposing their beliefs in this case? They are the ones who went to court to force the baker to comply.

hju6

Would a Muslim bakery be forced to bake a cake with a homosexual reference ?

A Primal Nut

Victor wrote: »

* "Support gay marriage"- generally considered inoffensive by the vast majority of the population. To not add the message (while allowing other messages) discriminates against a protected group.

Legally, how does that make sense in a country where gay marriage is illegal? Something is illegal, but if you agree with the law then according to the law you are discriminating which is illegal. So it's illegal to carry out actions which suggest you agree with the law as it is.

howiya

Pete29 wrote: »

It's their bakery, they found out about it some how and stopped the order. I agree, they should just refuse up front from now on if they have a problem with it.

Just been reading a little more about this. The person who took the order is a director of the company. Not just somebody on the till...

Sureiknow

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

There is no law in Northern Ireland (as far as I'm aware of) outlawing discrimination against anti-Semites or Nazis.

The laws in northern Ireland cover discrimination against Nationally.

A Primal Nut

hju6 wrote: »

Would a Muslim bakery be forced to bake a cake with a homosexual reference ?

Zero chance of anyone trying this with them. The gay couple would be accused of Islamophobia.

Hotblack Desiato

Pete29 wrote: »

The law, unfortunately, is sometimes unjust. It's amazing that someone people will support forcing others to work against their will in the name of equality.

If they don't want to offer their services to all they can always not offer them to any.

Hotblack Desiato

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Zero chance of anyone trying this with them. The gay couple would be accused of Islamophobia.

What you are overlooking is that the law applies to everyone whatever their religion or non-belief.

Mancomb Seepgood

Pete29 wrote: »

...and yet the Blacks and the Irish survived some how.

Whatever about the Irish,African-Americans used to find it nearly impossible to travel due to the difficulty in finding hotels or restaurants to serve them. There was even a guide book: "The Negro Motorist Green Book" to help black people travelling for business or pleasure.In some towns it listed private homes as there were no hotels for black people.So much for the ability of the free market to address discrimination.

Nody

Pete29 wrote: »

I agree, baking the cake doesn't infringe on your right to have certain beliefs, but that's not the point. The point is, given that a person has certain beliefs, is it fair, right, or just, to force them to provide a service which contradicts those beliefs. Is it just to force a baker who doesn't agree with gay marriage to bake a cake supporting gay marriage if they don't want to?

Would you support a Muslim doctor who refuses to operate on specific gender due to religious beliefs? Or a Jewish veterinary who would refuse to treat pigs because they are not halal? How about a customer facing supervisor who refused to shake hands with females and only males? A swim instructor who insisted only having women in full burkas? A shop that only let females in, never any male? Or only let female in if they are there with a man? A care hire company insisting only male drivers are allowed? Female circumcision to be done by Irish Catholic doctors on children?

All of the above can be claimed on religious grounds as well so I hope you're all for supporting that as well.

Victor

Nody wrote: »

Would you support a Muslim doctor who refuses to operate on specific gender due to religious beliefs?

This is a misconception - touching the opposite gender to render medical assistance or save life is not forbidden by Islam.

Or a Jewish veterinary who would refuse to treat pigs because they are not halal?

I'm not sure your comment is kosher.