Concerns on boiler installation

DamoKen

Hi, recently got our boiler replaced with a Firebird condensing kerosone boiler and I've a few concerns as to how it was done.

First question regards the placement of the flue. It's directly under an old wooden sash window, approx 50cm from the window sill and around 55 from the window opening. Read through the manual that came with it and the flue is meant to be at the minimum 1 metre from any windows. On another page it states the the flue should not be below a window if it's a condensing boiler which it is.

http://imgur.com/pR2YuOC

Second is the expansion tank. When the boiler was done the light in the shed was very poor. Since then had the house rewired and a new light put in the shed. It was only then I saw how it was mounted on a piece of wavin pipe which rocks if you touch it


http://imgur.com/kcwSwAN

Last is the passport that was in the folder with the manual. Didn't know it was there until I checked the install guide. It says this should be filled in by the engineer doing the installation and posted to Firebird otherwise the warranty could be affected.

I've called the plumber and he told me not to worry about the passport saying the guarantor of the warranty is the supplier he bought it from as well as him so the passport isn't necessary.

Re the wavin pipe, he said that was his mounting bracket but I could use a brick if I preferred. Thought he was messing at first when he said this as I was sure he just forgot to attach it. Checked guides for installing expansion tanks and each time they use a mounting bracket designed for it to fix off the floor to a wall. Surely this is the correct way?

Lastly he didn't seem to concerned avout the placement of the flue but said he can run it up past the window if I like. Pointed out that this would mean it was directly in front of the window and asked why he hadn't just used the hole in the roof from the old flue (beside the old aerial on the roof) which he had taken out but never replaced with the new one. My guess considering the old boiler is still below this opening is it was too heavy to move on his own so he just drilled a hole in the wall under a window. He did say he would get an extension kit and run it at a 45 degree angle to the window but to be honest I would prefer it was as far away from the window as possible. For one we can't open it with the boiler on and secondly I'd be concerned that the constant steam will rot the frame.

Apologies for the length of the post. Just want to confirm if my concerns are valid, and if so is the onus on him to correct the flue and tank as well as fill out the passport?

Cheers

Effects

That doesn't look like a wavin pipe. Looks like he just used whatever was lying around to leave the expansion vessel on. Doesn't inspire confidence really. He might not be registered to fill in the passport maybe? I had a new boiler fitted a few years ago but had a separate engineer commission it and fill in the passport.

Looks like he's just very lazy and untidy. Did he give you an invoice/receipt for the work?

Did you talk to him about getting the old boiler removed? That's what I would have expected, but reflected in his price of course.

agusta

Yes your concerns a valid.Everything you said is correct.The passport is your warranty.If your boiler just so happens to leak after 3 years,i could not see the supplier or the plumber giving you a new boiler including fitting.Does the boiler have a "remote acting fire valve"..., Is the condesate trap piped to a drain or soak pit...

agusta

Effects wrote: »

That doesn't look like a wavin pipe. Looks like he just used whatever was lying around to leave the expansion vessel on. Doesn't inspire confidence really. He might not be registered to fill in the passport maybe? I had a new boiler fitted a few years ago but had a separate engineer commission it and fill in the passport.

Looks like he's just very lazy and untidy. Did he give you an invoice/receipt for the work?

Did you talk to him about getting the old boiler removed? That's what I would have expected, but reflected in his price of course.

There is no need to be registered to fill out the passport.,you do need to be competent with the correct equipment. i.e, flue gas analyser,pressure gauges,vacuum gauge,smoke pump etc etc

jimf

with the exception of a bit of extra pipework any reason why he couldn't have used the back wall ??

Effects

agusta wrote: »

There is no need to be registered to fill out the passport.,you do need to be competent with the correct equipment.

I wasn't sure if you needed to be a registered engineer to do it. I had a plumber fit mine who didn't have the necessary equipment, that's why I went with a separate engineer. Thanks for clarifying.

dathi

DamoKen wrote: »

Hi, recently got our boiler replaced with a Firebird condensing kerosone boiler and I've a few concerns as to how it was done.

First question regards the placement of the flue. It's directly under an old wooden sash window, approx 50cm s

http://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad%2C37240%2Cen.pdf
doesnt comply with building regs have a look at pages 42 and 43 of the above link

TPM

old pump still fitted so I doubt any power flush was done, in some cases no power flush no warranty.

Not what you want to hear but imo you should get someone competent out to commission it and rectify the issues

Dtp1979

Yes I'd second everything mentioned. Get it commisioned. This guy is obviously a complete chancer. I'd honestly be worried about the installation if someone is reckless enough to put a flue directly under a window. If my first year apprentice did that I'd fire him.
Get somebody reputable in to check the job over and don't call the original installer back.

DamoKen

TPM wrote: »

old pump still fitted so I doubt any power flush was done, in some cases no power flush no warranty.

Not what you want to hear but imo you should get someone competent out to commission it and rectify the issues

Hi TPM, what do you mean old pump still fitted? Sorry not an area I'm familiar with. We paid for a new boiler system, the existing one when we bought was ancient and no longer fit for purpose. As part of that I would have expected a new pump to come as part of what we paid for no?

How can you tell it's still the old pump?

Cheers

DamoKen

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Yes I'd second everything mentioned. Get it commisioned. This guy is obviously a complete chancer. I'd honestly be worried about the installation if someone is reckless enough to put a flue directly under a window. If my first year apprentice did that I'd fire him.
Get somebody reputable in to check the job over and don't call the original installer back.

Cheers DTP, I did think when I first saw the positioning it wasn't right. Had so much other work going on at the time though so didn't bring him up on it immediately as I should have done.

Was only when we had a leak recently (unrelated) and needed to get an emergency plumber out as it was the middle of the night that it was pointed out this was against regulations. The call out plumber was fairly scathing when he did an inspection overall hence came on here to get another opinion before getting the original installer back.

To be honest my preference now would be the company we got out for the leak as everything he said has been confirmed here. However spent a lot on the boiler upgrade so apart from not being able to afford to pay someone else I want him to fix what he was paid to do!

Cheers

Dtp1979

DamoKen wrote: »

Hi TPM, what do you mean old pump still fitted? Sorry not an area I'm familiar with. We paid for a new boiler system, the existing one when we bought was ancient and no longer fit for purpose. As part of that I would have expected a new pump to come as part of what we paid for no?

How can you tell it's still the old pump?

Cheers

You can see it in the picture

DamoKen

Dtp1979 wrote: »

You can see it in the picture

Took another look and see it now. Should this have been replaced as part of the upgrade or would it normally be considered as a separate job?

He told us that as part of the job he would be flushing the system injecting a anti rust solution etc. Could he still have done that with the old pump?

DamoKen

dathi wrote: »

http://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad%2C37240%2Cen.pdf
doesnt comply with building regs have a look at pages 42 and 43 of the above link

Cheers Dathi, on table 8 page 43 it lists two burner types, a pressure jet & vapourizing. Would a condensing boiler be considered the latter? Had a look through the Firebird manual and no mention of vapourizer

Thanks

TPM

It would be good practice to replace the circulating pump with a boiler replacement and the pump in the picture is an old pump and Imo should be replaced without doubt.
It is possible to flush yhe system and add inhibitor without changing the pump.
But my concern would be that if someone is prepared to leave an old pump, fit a flue like that, balance the expansion vessel on a flue bend they are unlikely to spend the time required on a proper full power flush.

DamoKen

jimf wrote: »

with the exception of a bit of extra pipework any reason why he couldn't have used the back wall ??

None that I know of. Would have preferred if he had used the hole he left in the roof after removing the original flue. Instead he knocked a hole in the wall and cemented around it.

All the work he did was done while we were out of the house as it was being rewired at the time. Some strange decisions on a couple of things. For instance the new power shower hose was fixed to the wall facing out into the bathroom rather than over the taps into the bath. The reason he gave for that was he thought we'd want to keep the original bog standard hose on the wall over the taps. This was the point of getting the power shower, to replace this. Had to argue with him to get him to remove than and put the new hose on the right wall so no idea why he put the flue where he did.

Dtp1979

I'd really try and avoid this lad again. He's not gonna entertain you telling him he was wrong. An absolute cowboy unfortunately. What area are you based and maybe somebody could reccomend someone decent.

DamoKen

TPM wrote: »

It would be good practice to replace the circulating pump with a boiler replacement and the pump in the picture is an old pump and Imo should be replaced without doubt.
It is possible to flush yhe system and add inhibitor without changing the pump.
But my concern would be that if someone is prepared to leave an old pump, fit a flue like that, balance the expansion vessel on a flue bend they are unlikely to spend the time required on a proper full power flush.

Thanks TPM, would a new pump cost extra or normally come under the overall bolier upgrade quote?

What type of problems could an old pump cause. House is quite big and old. Takes forever for rads at the other end to heat, one has just stopped working since he finished (had worked before the boiler was replaced and for a while afterwards) and I've had to bleed the rads twice.

Realised this hadn't been done before as had to scrape paint off the bleed valves. As part of the work he also replaced all valves on the rads with thermostatic valves. Should he have balanced all the rads at that point including bleeding where required?

Should be out tomorrow so just want to make sure I'm not being unreasonable in expectations of what should have been done, what could be done but would have cost extra etc.

Cheers

DamoKen

Dtp1979 wrote: »

I'd really try and avoid this lad again. He's not gonna entertain you telling him he was wrong. An absolute cowboy unfortunately. What area are you based and maybe somebody could reccomend someone decent.

Unfortunately coming to that conclusion myself. He's calling tomorrow so just want to see what he says. From the conversation on the phone I got the impression he viewed it as additional billable work.

I think though going on this thread alone we need someone decent we can trust not to take the p*ss. We're about 20 min north of the airport off the M1 so any decent recommendations appreciated.

Cheers

Dtp1979

DamoKen wrote: »

Unfortunately coming to that conclusion myself. He's calling tomorrow so just want to see what he says. From the conversation on the phone I got the impression he viewed it as additional billable work.

I think though going on this thread alone we need someone decent we can trust not to take the p*ss. We're about 20 min north of the airport off the M1 so any decent recommendations appreciated.

Cheers

Pm sent

K.Flyer

DamoKen wrote: »

Unfortunately coming to that conclusion myself. He's calling tomorrow so just want to see what he says. From the conversation on the phone I got the impression he viewed it as additional billable work.

I think though going on this thread alone we need someone decent we can trust not to take the p*ss. We're about 20 min north of the airport off the M1 so any decent recommendations appreciated.

Cheers

DO NOT give this absolute chancer another red cent of your money!!
If he cannot do it right first time, then he shouldn't be let near it again.
Based on your pictures, I wouldn't give him Lego to put together.
Any chance of more pictures showing all the boiler etc

TPM

Most boiler replacements would include a new pump in the price. It's not something you absolutely have to change but is good and normal practice , the old pump apart from being more likely to fail due to age and be less efficient than a new one it will also be staring to loose performance and not be able to pump the heat around the system properly.
To be honest you need to cut your losses with the original installer, getting him to fix it is most likely just going to give you more issues.
Why was the boiler changed? And I bet it was installed as bought and not matched to the heat requirement of your house

DamoKen

TPM wrote: »

Most boiler replacements would include a new pump in the price. It's not something you absolutely have to change but is good and normal practice , the old pump apart from being more likely to fail due to age and be less efficient than a new one it will also be staring to loose performance and not be able to pump the heat around the system properly.
To be honest you need to cut your losses with the original installer, getting him to fix it is most likely just going to give you more issues.
Why was the boiler changed? And I bet it was installed as bought and not matched to the heat requirement of your house

Boiler was changed due to age. We bought the house last summer so no idea how old it was but the heating system overall wasn't working properly (rads upstairs were blocked altogether) and the boiler was on it's last legs. Boiler replacement does seem to be good, emergency plumber said it was a decent make.

Update since my last post. Installer called out this morning. To be fair to him accepted everything I said without argument and moved the flue to come through the opening left by the old boiler flue. Also fixed the expansion tank to the wall. No mention of money which is just as well. He did say initially the flue has to be 60cm from an opening but I pointed out the manual said it was a minimum of a metre if under the opening and if the opening was a window you couldn't put it there if it was a condensing boiler. Think he realised then that charging extra wasn't going to wash as no mention after that.

Only thing not done was fill out the passport. Basically he said he has a two year guarantee with his supplier, after that we're on our own. Said it was pretty standard. Not convinced but wasn't going to argue. I'm calling the manufacturer today to see what's their warranty when the passport is returned.

Also going to call someone whose details were kindly provided by Dtp1979 to inspect the installation overall and go with any additional recommendations if necessary.

I'll update again once the inspection has been carried out.

Thanks again guys, input very helpful for getting him to fix it this morning so really appreciate it.

Effects

As mentioned elsewhere, you need specialist equipment to commission the boiler. I doubt he has it himself.

DamoKen

Effects wrote: »

As mentioned elsewhere, you need specialist equipment to commission the boiler. I doubt he has it himself.

Got that impression alright when I mentioned it yesterday. Said he could do it but then didn't. I was working from home and on a call when he finished so couldn't follow up on it before he'd gone.

Anyway think at this stage I'd prefer someone else to inspect and commission it going on the opinions voiced here!