Trade Unions

Parchment

Are you in a union at work? If so, how do you feel about unions?

I feel there is a lot of negativity around unions these days.

Just interested to hear others views.

Shenshen

Nope, not in a union.
My feeling about them recently is that they urgently need to re-invent themselves. There certainly is still a massive need to protect employees, be it around health and safety, employment security or payment. But the way unions are structured right now and the tools they employ to try and achieve their aims are worse than useless at this point.

At best they achieve little more than driving the few large employers that unions can tackle closer to either bankruptcy, at worst they drive jobs offshore. They represent a fairly small portion of the Irish workforce and distort the employment market massively.
If I'm generous I'd assume they were at least well-meaning, but I suspect that they have themselves realised how outdated their methods are at this point but instead of changing have decided to shout louder in an effort to keep seeming relevant.

biko

"I'm not in a union and the simple reason is that I don't give a rat's ass about anyone else here at work.
For all I care they could all be replaced by Indians tomorrow and that would be fine by me.
Also I don't think anyone except me should fight for salary increases, even though I am not really doing a good job about it myself.
In fact I am not doing a particularly good job at all but I hope they won't replace me with an Indian this year."


^^ Seems to be the sentiment of most AH posters when it comes to unions.

gifted

biko wrote: »

"I'm not in a union and the simple reason is that I don't give a rat's ass about anyone else here at work.
For all I care they could all be replaced by Indians tomorrow and that would be fine by me.
Also I don't think anyone except me should fight for salary increases, even though I am not really doing a good job about it myself.
In fact I am not doing a particularly good job at all but I hope they won't replace me with an Indian this year."


^^ Seems to be the sentiment of most AH posters when it comes to unions.

What have Indians got to do with the OP question?

GerryDerpy

I have never met an intelligent, articulate and confident person that is in a union.

Unions have a purpose.

Hilly Bill

gifted wrote: »

What have Indians got to do with the OP question?

He works in Apache pizza.

Arcade_Tryer

I've never met an intelligent, articulate and confident person who is against unions.

Unions have a place in society, same as shareholders and boards.

Wanderer78

Atomisation and increasing worker insecurity, 'good for the economy' they say, ta hell with those pesky unions, ruining our plan of world domination!

sbsquarepants

The place I work is unusual in that roughly half the staff have to be in a union, and the other half don't.
It speaks volumes I believe that of the roughly 50% (maybe 100 people) who don't need to be in one, I don't know of 1 single person who has joined voluntarily.

I have no time for unions, have never been in one and have zero intention of ever joining one unless I absolutely can't avoid it.
They're bad enough in the private sector, but public sector unions are nothing short of shameless.

Parchment

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

I've never met an intelligent, articulate and confident person who is against unions.

Unions have a place in society, same as shareholders and boards.

I agree - unions brought in everything that private industry has slowly absorbed such as work place rights, leave entitlements, wage levels etc.

If the unions didnt do it - it wouldnt happen.

I do agree that they need to modernise themselves though and become more relevant and transparent.

Shenshen

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Atomisation and increasing worker insecurity, 'good for the economy' they say, ta hell with those pesky unions, ruining our plan of world domination!

I would agree, but I can't see how striking is increasing worker security.
They need to find new tools, the old tools are actually working against them at this point.

Wanderer78

Shenshen wrote:

I would agree, but I can't see how striking is increasing worker security. They need to find new tools, the old tools are actually working against them at this point.

Will completely agree with a new approach, they don't seem to be very creative, I'm thinking some young blood required for new thinking. Ah striking is just another tool, sometimes it works and other times not

Parchment

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Will completely agree with a new approach, they don't seem to be very creative, I'm thinking some young blood required for new thinking. Ah striking is just another tool, sometimes it works and other times not

I think striking is a very tangible reminder of the power of the workers but i do agree that more tactics are needed in these "modren" times.

Shenshen

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Will completely agree with a new approach, they don't seem to be very creative, I'm thinking some young blood required for new thinking. Ah striking is just another tool, sometimes it works and other times not

Well, it may work short-term, as the employer will want to keep the business running, obviously.
Long-term, though, I would imagine any employer who had faced a strike would want to safeguard against the next by moving as much of their workforce as they can abroad, even if the quality might suffer a bit. If they hadn't considered it before being striked at, they will afterwards.

osarusan

Depends on the union, what they're supporting, and how they go about it.

Wanderer78

Shenshen wrote:

Well, it may work short-term, as the employer will want to keep the business running, obviously. Long-term, though, I would imagine any employer who had faced a strike would want to safeguard against the next by moving as much of their workforce as they can abroad, even if the quality might suffer a bit. If they hadn't considered it before being striked at, they will afterwards.

Yup globalisation truly isn't working for the worker, won't be easy sorting this one

Parchment

Shenshen wrote: »

Well, it may work short-term, as the employer will want to keep the business running, obviously.
Long-term, though, I would imagine any employer who had faced a strike would want to safeguard against the next by moving as much of their workforce as they can abroad, even if the quality might suffer a bit. If they hadn't considered it before being striked at, they will afterwards.

But if everyone thought like that nothing would get changed. Its fear that keeps people down.

I know thats all very idealistic and people have mortgages to pay and kids to feed but its about the larger picture. Workers have to stand up for themselves.

Think about those amazing Dunnes workers who went on strike in the 80's in opposition of apartheid. Fear didnt stop them and they made a huge change.

I dont look at unions with rose tinted glasses at all but i just try to always look at the bigger picture.

If they were fighting for the rights of the employees at the bottom then I could get onboard with the cause.

But I've never heard them shout about those.

DrPhilG

Personally I have been let down by them. I am part of a very small group of employees and as such, not worth fighting for. When other larger groups of staff have been hard done by in similar situations the Unions fought hard for them and won their claim. For us (2 people only) they didn't give a crap. Not worth the time/money for us.

That said I still pay into the Union. I think it's the fear that something terrible will crop up and I would need them.

So no, not a fan.

sbsquarepants

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Will completely agree with a new approach, they don't seem to be very creative, I'm thinking some young blood required for new thinking. Ah striking is just another tool, sometimes it works and other times not

This is their main problem as far as I can see - they are still stuck in Jim Larken mode. It's no coincidence that the most unionised industries and work places are also the most old fashioned and inefficient.
You can spot unionised workers a mile off - everything is an issue, the simplest of things become stumbling blocks and bones of contention. Not my job becomes a mantra.
It's very hard to tell apart from laziness to be perfectly honest.

I approach my job as simply as this - my job is to get the job done. It's not a set list of tasks which I refuse point blank to deviate from, if shít happens i'll use my head, adapt, improvise and get on with things I will in short do what needs to be done to achieve our pre agreed end result. I will expect to be paid - but you will also get what you pay for. If you aren't willing to pay me, i'll go work for someone who is.
I think if everyone approached working like that things would go a lot more smoothly and there would be no need for unions.

osarusan

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

If they were fighting for the rights of the employees at the bottom then I could get onboard with the cause.

But I've never heard them shout about those.

Mandate made a lot of noise about Dunnes Stores' sh!tty contracts a couple of years ago.

Shenshen

Parchment wrote: »

But if everyone thought like that nothing would get changed. Its fear that keeps people down.

I know thats all very idealistic and people have mortgages to pay and kids to feed but its about the larger picture. Workers have to stand up for themselves.

Think about those amazing Dunnes workers who went on strike in the 80's in opposition of apartheid. Fear didnt stop them and they made a huge change.

I dont look at unions with rose tinted glasses at all but i just try to always look at the bigger picture.

I've no problem with taking a risk if I can see that it might bring benefit in future.
Unions as they currently work will do more damage than good, though, and bring no benefits whatsoever.
As I said, their tools and strategies are woefully outdated.

meeeeh

If you want to find the worst employee in the place you just ask who is the union rep.

Unions are dinosaurs that refuse to change, bully people who don't conform and do more damage than good.

Wanderer78

sbsquarepants wrote:

I approach my job as simply as this - my job is to get the job done. It's not a set list of tasks which I refuse point blank to deviate from, if shít happens i'll use my head, adapt, improvise and get on with things I will in short do what needs to be done to achieve our pre agreed end result. I will expect to be paid - but you will also get what you pay for. If you aren't willing to pay me, i'll go work for someone who is. I think if everyone approached working like that things would go a lot more smoothly and there would be no need for unions.

It's a good approach to have but humans aren't black or white, particularly our behaviour, it's very complex. This productivity approach is madness, humans aren't production machines. Sadly some just don't have the abilities or whatever is required to be able just up and leave if things aren't working out. It's extremely critical to have some sort of security for workers but I do feel things such as neoliberalism/globalisation are seriously increasing worker insecurity, this causes complex problems for most workers. It's a very complex problem, but we're gonna have to knock our heads together or this could go to very bad places.

Thundercats Ho

A company I worked for went bust in 2007.
They were looking for wage cuts. I can't remember the specifics, but it was mostly overtime rates, shift pay etc (maybe a 5/10% cut on flat pay too).

The wages were inflated. The union called the company's bluff, but it backfired and the company closed with around 200 job cuts, which naturally enough was a huge blow to the town.

A similar (engineering) firm opened around the same time, and quite a lot of the workforce got employment there, but at wages that were maybe 30% less than they had just rejected from the old company.

I'm conflicted on unions tbh. They are there to stick up for the little guy and fight for workers rights, but they were responsible for a long standing company to go to the wall by not being realistic.

it's not a case that the old co would have failed anyway, as the main reason the new start up is thriving, is that it picked up all the contracts from the old company, without the larger overheads.

Wanderer78

Thundercats Ho wrote:

A company I worked for went bust in 2007. They were looking for wage cuts. I can't remember the specifics, but it was mostly overtime rates, shift pay etc (maybe a 5/10% cut on flat pay too).

Maybe the union push could well have been just the final nail, in an already sliding business, hard to tell though. That's rough. Employers market at the moment

Divelment

The problem with unions in this country is that they have become largely a public sector only type of organisation. You won't see tradespeople such as electricians, mechanics, carpenters in unions, and this is where the ability to earn a proper wage that is commensurate with your skill and experience, is being most undermined, as EU free borders now mean that anyone can come here and offer their trade for any price, usually substantially lower than the going market rate here.

FTA69

I work as an organiser for a major union in the U.K. and can say that they've never been needed more. In fact, there's a direct correlation between the rise in inequality in society and workplaces and the fall in union membership.

Increasing amounts of workers face mass precarity, low wages and a general powerlessness at work. Some people moan about the term "race to the
bottom" but that's exactly what we are seeing. Real wages are plummeting and workers are also facing outside pressures such as rising rents and decreased social services. Realistically, the only vehicles working people have to redress this are trade unions, flawed as they are.

As for people bemoaning strikes and the like, the reality is that strikes are at their lowest levels ever and many unions are engaged in cozy partnership deals with bosses which are more concerned with preserving the status quo and the position of senior union people than they are for advancing the interests of workers.

If anything unions need to become more combative, more localised, smaller and more adaptive to precarious industries.

Hilly Bill

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

If they were fighting for the rights of the employees at the bottom then I could get onboard with the cause.

But I've never heard them shout about those.

They do, every day in all forms employment.

Hilly Bill

Divelment wrote: »

The problem with unions in this country is that they have become largely a public sector only type of organisation. You won't see tradespeople such as electricians, mechanics, carpenters in unions, and this is where the ability to earn a proper wage that is commensurate with your skill and experience, is being most undermined, as EU free borders now mean that anyone can come here and offer their trade for any price, usually substantially lower than the going market rate here.

You'll have them tradesmen in unions as well apart maybe those that are self employed.

FTA69

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You'll have them tradesmen in unions as well apart maybe those that are self employed.

Construction is notoriously hard to organise for a variety of reasons. 1) we are seeing a mass rise in bogus self-employment where even the labourers are stand alone 'companies' not entitled to any of the benefits of an employee like sick pay or pensions etc. This is often a condition of them being hired.
2) it's transient. You can put huge efforts into organising a job and then a year later it's winding down and the tradesmen are off working in different parts of the city of country or joining different firms.

It's a tough proposition for any union although I hear New York etc have a good bash off it.

Riddle101

Not in a union but I do see the benefits of having one. Protecting workers rights is important I think. I don't particularity agree with them all the time, but I wouldn't want to see them gone either.

AndrewJRenko

GerryDerpy wrote: »

I have never met an intelligent, articulate and confident person that is in a union.

Unions have a purpose.

Hello - nice to meet you Gerry.

Thundercats Ho wrote: »

A company I worked for went bust in 2007.
They were looking for wage cuts. I can't remember the specifics, but it was mostly overtime rates, shift pay etc (maybe a 5/10% cut on flat pay too).

The wages were inflated. The union called the company's bluff, but it backfired and the company closed with around 200 job cuts, which naturally enough was a huge blow to the town.

A similar (engineering) firm opened around the same time, and quite a lot of the workforce got employment there, but at wages that were maybe 30% less than they had just rejected from the old company.

I'm conflicted on unions tbh. They are there to stick up for the little guy and fight for workers rights, but they were responsible for a long standing company to go to the wall by not being realistic.

it's not a case that the old co would have failed anyway, as the main reason the new start up is thriving, is that it picked up all the contracts from the old company, without the larger overheads.

All strike decisions are made democratically. The union is as good or as bad as the members.

Thundercats Ho

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Hello - nice to meet you Gerry.



All strike decisions are made democratically. The union is as good or as bad as the members.

Members by and large (or at least in my experience) vote as they are advised by the union.
The union is as bad or good as the people heading it, and advising the general members and staff.

AndrewJRenko

Thundercats Ho wrote: »

Members by and large (or at least in my experience) vote as they are advised by the union.

Have you a source for this? It certainly doesn't match my understanding of what has happened with the teachers, or the Gardai or nurses over recent years.

Thundercats Ho wrote: »

The union is as bad or good as the people heading it, and advising the general members and staff.

The people heading the union - the Council members or equivalent - are voted in by the members. There's that democracy thing again.

Divelment

FTA69 wrote: »

I work as an organiser for a major union in the U.K. and can say that they've never been needed more. In fact, there's a direct correlation between the rise in inequality in society and workplaces and the fall in union membership.

Increasing amounts of workers face mass precarity, low wages and a general powerlessness at work. Some people moan about the term "race to the
bottom" but that's exactly what we are seeing. Real wages are plummeting and workers are also facing outside pressures such as rising rents and decreased social services. Realistically, the only vehicles working people have to redress this are trade unions, flawed as they are.

As for people bemoaning strikes and the like, the reality is that strikes are at their lowest levels ever and many unions are engaged in cozy partnership deals with bosses which are more concerned with preserving the status quo and the position of senior union people than they are for advancing the interests of workers.

If anything unions need to become more combative, more localised, smaller and more adaptive to precarious industries.

You should take a good look at how public sector unions are destroying this country, as they continually hold the country to random to be given a bigger slice of the national pie in terms of tax take. It's gotten so bad here that there is no money left for capital expenditure, because current expenditure is so high. This would be nearly acceptable if the delivery of public services wasn't so utterly atrocious.

Then you have people in the private sector, who are not organised and who have no national "clout", left absolutely & utterly powerless when they get handed the bill for this year in year out, via a tax system that makes people pay a tax rate of 52% on everything that they earn over 33,800 Euro, or a host of stealth taxes, or having to pay a household tax to run inefficient local authorities who in fact provide no service whatsoever now to most of the general public, apart from managing a local park or library..

If you step back and look at the sheer amount of tax that thus country takes in, and it still can't deliver anything that even resembles an acceptable standard of service to the public, in terms of healthcare provision (most people need private medical insurance), education (most people have to get their kids grinds because the teachers in this country basically can't teach!), housing, don't even get me started on housing, justice (every shop & business in Ireland basically needs a private security resource now just to stay in business), and what do the staff of all these providers of public services have in common?!?

You guessed it, they are all highly unionised.

Wanderer78

Divelment wrote: »

You should take a good look at how public sector unions are destroying this country, as they continually hold the country to random to be given a bigger slice of the national pie in terms of tax take. It's gotten so bad here that there is no money left for capital expenditure, because current expenditure is so high. This would be nearly acceptable if the delivery of public services wasn't so utterly atrocious.

Then you have people in the private sector, who are not organised and who have no national "clout", left absolutely & utterly powerless when they get handed the bill for this year in year out, via a tax system that makes people pay a tax rate of 52% on everything that they earn over 33,800 Euro, or a host of stealth taxes, or having to pay a household tax to run inefficient local authorities who in fact provide no service whatsoever now to most of the general public, apart from managing a local park or library..

If you step back and look at the sheer amount of tax that thus country takes in, and it still can't deliver anything that even resembles an acceptable standard of service to the public, in terms of healthcare provision (most people need private medical insurance), education (most people have to get their kids grinds because the teachers in this country basically can't teach!), housing, don't even get me started on housing, justice (every shop & business in Ireland basically needs a private security resource now just to stay in business), and what do the staff of all these providers of public services have in common?!?

You guessed it, they are all highly unionised.

so is the problem worker related or something more serious and more complex?

AndrewJRenko

Divelment wrote: »

You should take a good look at how public sector unions are destroying this country, as they continually hold the country to random to be given a bigger slice of the national pie in terms of tax take. It's gotten so bad here that there is no money left for capital expenditure, because current expenditure is so high. This would be nearly acceptable if the delivery of public services wasn't so utterly atrocious.

Then you have people in the private sector, who are not organised and who have no national "clout", left absolutely & utterly powerless when they get handed the bill for this year in year out, via a tax system that makes people pay a tax rate of 52% on everything that they earn over 33,800 Euro, or a host of stealth taxes, or having to pay a household tax to run inefficient local authorities who in fact provide no service whatsoever now to most of the general public, apart from managing a local park or library..

If you step back and look at the sheer amount of tax that thus country takes in, and it still can't deliver anything that even resembles an acceptable standard of service to the public, in terms of healthcare provision (most people need private medical insurance), education (most people have to get their kids grinds because the teachers in this country basically can't teach!), housing, don't even get me started on housing, justice (every shop & business in Ireland basically needs a private security resource now just to stay in business), and what do the staff of all these providers of public services have in common?!?

You guessed it, they are all highly unionised.

The obvious solution would be for private sector staff to organise, and get that clout then, presumably?

FTA69

Actually what destroyed the Irish economy to the point it was subjected to austerity measures was a property and banking bubble that was driven by interests that are generally hostile to unions. Yes, via social partnership some elements of the Irish union movement were chasing some of the spoils (fair enough) but to categorise them as being the fault of Ireland's economic demise is revisionist rubbish. The real culprits behind that are a financial and political elite and their mates in property development - not nurses or teachers working their absolute b*llocks off and again facing a cut in real wages or prolonged pay freezes, pension levies and tax hikes.

Also some of your post is just plain off the wall; since when were the cops 'highly unionised'? They aren't even a proper union and are banned from striking as far as I know. And as for housing? If you want to point a finger at that then point it at successive governments who refuse to build social housing while handing over a fortune to landlords in the form of rent allowance while the rest of us get gourd to death in the private sector rental market in the name of property rights.

There's plenty wrong with Ireland, ordinary working people isn't one of them.

FTA69

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The obvious solution would be for private sector staff to organise, and get that clout then, presumably?

In reality the poster would be complaining about that too; I've heard it a million times - people crying and moaning about static pay freeze etc and getting shat on at work and then simultaneously ripping into other workers who have the temerity to organise themselves.

Divelment

Wanderer78 wrote: »

so is the problem worker related or something more serious and more complex?

There are many problems, it's too easy to blame lazy workers or intransigent unions, the problem is complicated. One of the biggest part of the problem in my opinion is that we have a political system that encourages the least productive people in our economy, to get involved in political office. The average person working in our economy today is completely unrepresented via the political system. You have the public sector well represented via their cronies in Labour, note how the Labour Party are funded through public sector unions and the ICTU.

You have the hard left, many of who do not work and will never work, represented by the Anti Austerity/People Before Profit loo-laa brigade, I see these people regularly on my Facebook timeline, professional protestors who don't work but who have a lot to say on facebook about how the country is run, from the comfort of their armchairs.

But the man out driving the DPD van today doing his deliveries, or the guy in your local garage under a car for 8 hours a day, or the girl working in the florists, who is representing those people?

The truth is that they are unrepresented and we are seeing the manifestation of this now, we are see how we have allowed the minority who are represented at national level, to dictate tax policy and spending policy, and the majority who are unrepresented, get handed the bill for it.

This is why we are seeing Brexit and Trump, because the political system has utterly failed those who are working and it has also failed those who are unemployed. What we are seeing is a political revolution and it is only starting, by the time this is all over and done with, I reckon there will be no EU as we currently have it.

Divelment

FTA69 wrote: »

Actually what destroyed the Irish economy to the point it was subjected to austerity measures was a property and banking bubble that was driven by interests that are generally hostile to unions. Yes, via social partnership some elements of the Irish union movement were chasing some of the spoils (fair enough) but to categorise them as being the fault of Ireland's economic demise is revisionist rubbish. The real culprits behind that are a financial and political elite and their mates in property development - not nurses or teachers working their absolute b*llocks off and again facing a cut in real wages or prolonged pay freezes, pension levies and tax hikes.

Also some of your post is just plain off the wall; since when were the cops 'highly unionised'? They aren't even a proper union and are banned from striking as far as I know. And as for housing? If you want to point a finger at that then point it at successive governments who refuse to build social housing while handing over a fortune to landlords in the form of rent allowance while the rest of us get gourd to death in the private sector rental market in the name of property rights.

There's plenty wrong with Ireland, ordinary working people isn't one of them.

A government can't put money into capital expenditure such as water infrastructure and housing and healthcare assets, when the money taken in via annual taxation is all being spent on current expenditure which is basically the wages and pensions of the public sector. Why do you think the NHS is in trouble financially, Irish Rail, the HSE, Bus Eireann, why do you think there is a housing crisis in the UK and in Ireland???

red ears

We hear plenty about the public service having gold plated pensions, good working conditions, reasonable hours, decent pay etc. Ask yourself how they got that?

Wanderer78

Divelment wrote: »

This is why we are seeing Brexit and Trump, because the political system has utterly failed those who are working and it has also failed those who are unemployed. What we are seeing is a political revolution and it is only starting, by the time this is all over and done with, I reckon there will be no EU as we currently have it.

i will agree with you that we re looking at failing political systems globally all backed by fundamentally flawed economic theories and principles, sadly our political leaders are not listening to these warnings. this has the potential to lead us down very dark roads including a major war. im not convinced anybody really knows what to do but we better think quickly. i fear a total collapse of the eu could be on the cards

FTA69

All excellent questions:

1) The NHS is in the sh*t here because it's systematically underfunded by the government which is simultaneously giving tax breaks to some of the richest organisations on the planet. Organisations such as Vodafone and Starbucks owe the state billions in tax which is avoided via a network of sophisticated schemes. The financiers who the government get to draw up these tax laws (KPMG etc) the subsequently charge companies a fortune in advising them how to avoid them. On top of that the NHS is being privatised hand over foot. I'm sitting in an east london hospital now waiting to meet cleaners who are being stripped of their contracts and handed over to Serco who will be payed £600m of taxpayers money to run the cleaning despite being a horrendous company with a worse record.

2) we are facing a housing crisis here because Thatcher sold off all the council houses, most of which are now owned by private letting conglomerates charging the likes of me £1200 a month to live in a former council block - these people are further subsidised by housing benefit or rent allowance. On top of that councils are unable to build social housing and the government refuses to bring in rent controls. In London entire blocks of flats lie empty as they've been sold off-plan to Chinese or Russian investors in glorified money laundering schemes.

You're notion that governments like the Tories or Fine Gael are yearning to build social housing and provide free health care only they're bogged down paying nurses and teachers is a load of utter sh*te to be honest. You've been hoodwinked utterly and totally. There is an ideological commitment to running down state services and driving down wages and there has been a massive hike in inequality as a result of that.

sbsquarepants

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The obvious solution would be for private sector staff to organise, and get that clout then, presumably?

No private sector company could survive using public sector methods. You can't go on endlessly spending more than you bring in, bankruptcy tends to bring a crashing halt to the party.

It's not the unions fault mind, it's successive weak governments, buying votes without a care in the world for the good of the country as a whole.

Hilly Bill

red ears wrote: »

We hear plenty about the public service having gold plated pensions, good working conditions, reasonable hours, decent pay etc. Ask yourself how they got that?

Average Joe soap in that sector don't have it.

red ears

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Average Joe soap in that sector don't have it.

Listen hilly bill independent news and media says so is has to be true..

Hilly Bill

Hilly Bill wrote: »

They do, every day in all forms employment.

Id love to see some examples.

Not saying it isn't the case as another poster highlighted dunnes stores. I'm just saying I haven't heard of any others.

FTA69

sbsquarepants wrote: »

No private sector company could survive using public sector methods. You can't go on endlessly spending more than you bring in, bankruptcy tends to bring a crashing halt to the party.

It's not the unions fault mind, it's successive weak governments, buying votes without a care in the world for the good of the country as a whole.

In fairness that's not the point he was making; he was saying that workers in the private sector should organise if they want better conditions and a higher wage and he's right. This notion that if a union exists in the private sector then that business is doomed is a load of nonsense and has been perpetuated since the industrial revolution first came about.

FTA69

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

Id love to see some examples.

Not saying it isn't the case as another poster highlighted dunnes stores. I'm just saying I haven't heard of any others.

Unite fair tips campaign, Unite Justice for Cleaners, Unite Domestic Branch, Unite in St Barts Trust (cleaners again), fight for 15 in the USA, Gama workers in Ireland, Unite meat factories, Unite mixed fleet cabin crew. Most of the above are ones I know personally and are to do with my own union.