House share

TheScriptFan

I own my own house and rent out two of the room at a very reasonable rate. I don't have a big mortgage and so feel I would only be feeding into the crazy rental market by looking for way more than I need. I say this, to give context that I am a fair person I think!
We are all late 20's/early 30's and the house has just one bathroom...when moving in I'm very upfront with all tenants about house guests. Welcome on occasion, partners not staying over more than 2 nights a week. Everyone agreed and we were all happy out. One of the girls however is constantly having our boyfriend over, to be fair they are always in her room but it's the bathroom bit that I hate. I don't want to be legging it up from the shower to bump into them.
I've had to pull her up on it 3 times now and now he's been here 4/7 nights. Am I being unreasonable? She's fairly sound apart from that, but I feel like I was very upfront at the start and if it didn't suit her she shouldn't have taken the room.
I want to ask her to leave now, as there's no point in saying it a 4th time..but just aware how hard it is to find accommodation.

the_syco

TheScriptFan wrote: »

I own my own house and rent out two of the room at a very reasonable rate.

TheScriptFan wrote: »

I've had to pull her up on it 3 times now and now he's been here 4/7 nights. Am I being unreasonable?

Give her notice, and tell the next tenant of the max amount of nights the other half can stay over.

You are being very fair its your house and you set the rules.

If she is a good tenant otherwise maybe give her one more chance with the warning that she will get notice to leave the immediately the next time she has her boyfriend say over more than once a week. You could also remind her of how difficukt it is to find somewhere else which might frighten her into copping on.

Also if I was you I wouldn't be renting out the rooms cheaply. You are sacrificing a lot by giving up the privacy of your home to rent out rooms and you should be getting well rewarded financially.

cronos

A renter's not going to pay you more when the market is weak. So I wouldn't reduce rent when market is strong.

otwb1

Sit her down and give her a final warning. it's your house and you told her the rules. Her finding another place because she wants somewhere that will let her have permanent guests is not your problem.

listermint

Yep sit her down and explain that you are not looking for an argument and that when she came on board she signed up to an agreement about visitors. you've been very reasonable with the rules but she has taken advantage of them entirely. And call it a day. She may be too loved up at this point to care for rules but thats not your problem she knew them when she went in perhaps their own place should be their next stop

spaceHopper

Be fair to yourself and the other tennants, you can't expect them to live by the rules when you let her way with not. Give her her notice and ask her to go, give 5 weeks to find somewhere, she can move at the end of any of those weeks

newacc2015

I disagree with the others. She is in her 20s/30s and not a 17 year first time out of home. She knows what she is doing is wrong. If she has been warned 3 times already and is ignoring you, you have no choice but to evict her. Give her 6 weeks to leave if you are worried about her having difficulty finding somewhere else. But I find if you give someone 2 weeks or 6 weeks, the person with 6 weeks notice will start looking at week 4. Plus you are dealing with the bf for another 6 weeks.

I would give her 4 weeks notice. Don't forget she is getting evicted for not listening to you

Arcade_Tryer

Aaden Scary Larvae wrote: »

You are sacrificing a lot by giving up the privacy of your home to rent out rooms and you should be getting well rewarded financially.

Are the Government forcing people to rent out rooms now? There was me thinking they incentivised it with tax free income...

Arcade_Tryer

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

Are the Government forcing people to rent out rooms now? There was me thinking they incentivised it with tax free income...

No but you are still giving up the privacy of your home and providing accommodation that would otherwise not be available, especially now in a time of severe shortage. If I were renting rooms it would be for the maximum achievable rent per room thus maximising my income and getting as much benefit as possible from the tax exemption.

Arcade_Tryer

Aaden Scary Larvae wrote: »

No but you are still giving up the privacy of your home and providing accommodation that would otherwise not be available, especially now in a time of severe shortage. If I were renting rooms it would be for the maximum achievable rent per room thus maximising my income and getting as much benefit as possible from the tax exemption.

Exploit the market sure, which 99.999% of landlords do.

Landlords don't deserve extra simply for "sacrificing" their privacy however. That's included in the market rate. Same as not owning the property and being subject to certain conditions is for the tenant.

worded

You have an opportunity to upgrade your house and en-suite the rooms
If you put the rent to market value or near market value.

So everyone gets more privacy starting with you if you get an ensuite in your room :-)

Ok can you build an Ext or put a loo under stairs or convert the attic with an ensuite ? Remortgage for a home improvement ?

Give her notice to leave

Also she is a licencee not a tenant and isn't untitled to notice but play fair if she plays fair

Samuel T. Cogley

worded wrote: »

Also she is a licencee not a tenant and isn't untitled to notice but play fair if she plays fair

That statement is completely correct but I'm wondering if you intended it to be so? :pac:

Licensees are entitled to 'reasonable' notice.

+1 on the en suites and upgrades to the house advice.

newacc2015

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Licensees are entitled to 'reasonable' notice.

Source? They have pretty much zero rights or laws governing them AFAIK.

Samuel T. Cogley

newacc2015 wrote: »

Source? They have pretty much zero rights or laws governing them AFAIK.

It's the common law position on licensees. What reasonable is or the damages concerned would be for a court to determine in each case.

I thought I had a text book I could cite an example for you here but I don't sorry. Here's the citizen's advice page for you. It doesn't give case law examples but they could be found easily enough although I doubt any apply directly to RAR. You'll find examples on hotels and I'd suggest that's a reasonable starting point plus a bit more as presumably someone in a hotel has a home to go to.

Arcade_Tryer

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

Exploit the market sure, which 99.999% of landlords do.

Landlords don't deserve extra simply for "sacrificing" their privacy however. That's included in the market rate. Same as not owning the property and being subject to certain conditions is for the tenant.

This is not a LL and tenant situation. The op is the owner and the people staying there are licensees (house guests in other words). While I did mean market rate when I said "maximum rent possible" a home owner renting rooms is not bound by market rate, they can ask for what ever they want, they won't get it of course if they ask too much but its not like a LL and tenant who are bound by many rules and regulations.

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

It's the common law position on licensees. What reasonable is or the dmages concerned would be for a court to determine in each case.

There is no definition of "reasonable notice". While the ops lodger isn't the worst by any means and I doubt the op will kick her out immediately but in theory she could be given 24 hours notice to vacate (or told to go on the spot if they were particularly bad). A licensee can't even go to the RTB so even if they want to argue their case they will have hard time in getting their voice heard and even if they do find someone the chances of them getting anywhere up against the home owner when they were a guest is almost non-existent.

Samuel T. Cogley

Aaden Scary Larvae wrote: »

There is no definition of "reasonable notice". While the ops lodger isn't the worst by any means and I doubt the op will kick her out immediately but in theory she could be given 24 hours notice to vacate (or told to go on the spot if they were particularly bad). A licensee can't even go to the RTB so even if they want to argue their case they will have hard time in getting their voice heard and even if they do find someone the chances of them getting anywhere up against the home owner when they were a guest is almost non-existent.

That's not the same though as not entitled to any notice though.

Samuel T. Cogley

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

That's not the same though as not entitled to any notice though.

Well its not that different. It could be 30 mins notice to pack up and get out if the home owner felt strongly enough about getting them out.

Samuel T. Cogley

Aaden Scary Larvae wrote: »

Well its not that different. It could be 30 mins notice to pack up and get out if the home owner felt strongly enough about getting them out.

I have to disagree there.

It could potentially be 30 minutes if there was reason for it but in the vast majority of situations, where the tenant is not an immediate threat to the property reasonable is probably going to be in the order of 24 hours or so.

I think it's dangerous for people to think they can just kick someone to the curb (so to speak) if they are renting a room. I concede it's unlikely to do to court, but it could and result in damages awarded against the home owner.

Edit: Heading over to LD as I'm derailing here, apologies. Thanks for the interesting discussion Nox.

Moonbeam

Sit down and chat with her and explain that you are not happy and if he stays over he can pay rent too or move out.

newacc2015

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

I think it's dangerous for people to think they can just kick someone to the curb (so to speak) if they are renting a room. I concede it's unlikely to do to court, but it could and result in damages awarded against the home owner.

Edit: Heading over to LD as I'm derailing here, apologies. Thanks for the interesting discussion Nox.

What court? The RTB will not take it. The small claims court only appears to take issues with the deposit aspect of it and damages of wear and tear of it.

I could see the smalls court in a circumstance like this will see the license was in breach of their agreement, was warned 3 times about it and failed to listen to the owner. If you were in a hotel and warned three times about your behaviour and were kicked out on the fourth, I can't see too many people agreeing with someone kicking you out. Yes living in someone home is different, but the law still sees you as equal to a hotel guest.

I dont know the ins and outs of the smalls claims court, but if I was the register and read what the license was doing, I would find it very hard to be empathetic to the situation she found herself in.

Samuel T. Cogley

Although I've seen some sites suggesting that this sort of thing could be done through the Small Claims Procedure, I doubt it could be. They deal specifically with deposits AFAIK. They could also deal with property damage through say chucking someones belongings out.

The court would be the court that had jurisdiction in terms of damages claimed, I imagine the District Court in the vast majority of cases. While a registrar will try and sort things out informally a DCJ will not. He would hear legal submissions, they wouldn't need to be complicated - here's the common law position in case X and Y and Z and make a determination. The costs for doing so are not prohibitive by any means and a 'tenant' in a licensee type arrangement would generally have very little to lose given that enforcement would be nigh on impossible.

TheScriptFan

Thanks everyone for feedback and advice.
I'm aware I could get more - but I think rents are ridiculous and I don't want to feed into that.
I'm going to ask her to leave, will give her 6 weeks notice.

cronos

TheScriptFan wrote: »

Thanks everyone for feedback and advice.
I'm aware I could get more - but I think rents are ridiculous and I don't want to feed into that.
I'm going to ask her to leave, will give her 6 weeks notice.

Might be an idea to give her the flexibility to finish up early also if she finds a place. Given the market you should be able to replace her quickly. Also it will get her gone earlier potentially. It's better for her as it gives her much more options.

Thoie

TheScriptFan wrote: »

Thanks everyone for feedback and advice.
I'm aware I could get more - but I think rents are ridiculous and I don't want to feed into that.
I'm going to ask her to leave, will give her 6 weeks notice.

Point out to her that if the boyfriend stays more than 2 nights a week during that time, you'll have to ask her to leave immediately. Whether you do or not is up to you, but I could see her taking the p for the next 6 weeks if she knows she's out anyway.

Maybe the way to phrase it is I'm giving you 2 weeks notice, but am willing to extend that to 6 as long as boyfriend isn't around more than twice a week for the remainder of your stay. Any breach of that after the 2 weeks are up and she'll have to leave straight away.

the_syco

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Here's the citizen's advice page for you.

From said link;

• Any notice you may get of the termination of the tenancy is at your landlord's discretion (although the landlord is obliged to give reasonable notice, the specifics of this notice may vary)
• You cannot use the RTB's dispute resolution service if a disagreement arises between you and your landlord

=-=

TheScriptFan wrote: »

Thanks everyone for feedback and advice.
I'm aware I could get more - but I think rents are ridiculous and I don't want to feed into that.
I'm going to ask her to leave, will give her 6 weeks notice.

Perhaps say that the boyfriend is not allowed over during this time (may quicken her departure), and if she wants to leave before the six weeks, grand, let her leave; pointless having her stay the six weeks if she wants out before then.

worded

the_syco wrote: »

From said link;


=-=


Perhaps say that the boyfriend is not allowed over during this time (may quicken her departure), and if she wants to leave before the six weeks, grand, let her leave; pointless having her stay the six weeks if she wants out before then.

+1.



Did you say she was less thsn 20 years old? If so she is likely to be imature about the predicament she now finds herself in.

Calc / agree with rent per day and explain early departure = extra € returned.
Explain you will play fair with €.

This could be a very long stressful 6 weeks for you.
Make it the normal 4 weeks. IF she is behaved during the 4 weeks and can't find another place = likely. Extend +2. If she isn't behaved shorten the 4 weeks.
You have been a pushover to her so far. The atmosphere will change poss dramatically when she knows her number is up. Prepare for this.

No more BF overnights. 0. Focus her on finding a new nest and wrecking someone else's head.

Hope you find a better flat mate the next time. That's what you need a "flat mate", not a "tenant".

Usually first year students, first year away from home are a nightmare - avoid.

Best of luck !

Samuel T. Cogley

the_syco wrote: »

From said link;

The termination is at the LL discretion, not the notice. As per that link.

(As opposed to say the RTA 2004 where there is no discretionary termination during a Part IV, only termination on specific grounds.)

Michael D Not Higgins

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

The termination is at the LL discretion, not the notice. As per that link.

(As opposed to say the RTA 2004 where there is no discretionary termination during a Part IV, only termination on specific grounds.)

Semantic reading of the plain English used by Citizen's Information is shaky legal ground at best. I don't know the legal basis for what establishes that a landlord must give a licensee 'reasonable notice' and I assume it would be determined on a case by case basis. If it is based in common law I think the legal discussion forum would be the best place to discuss precedents and basis for what constitutes reasonable.

Outside of that, we can only advise landlords and licensees that reasonable notice is required and what that entails is contextual.

Edit: I see you already have a Legal Discussion topic covering this.

Samuel T. Cogley

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Semantic reading of the plain English used by Citizen's Information is shaky legal ground at best. I don't know the legal basis for what establishes that a landlord must give a licensee 'reasonable notice' and I assume it would be determined on a case by case basis. If it is based in common law I think the legal discussion forum would be the best place to discuss precedents and basis for what constitutes reasonable.

Outside of that, we can only advise landlords and licensees that reasonable notice is required and what that entails is contextual.

It's hardly sematics. It's there in plain english from the CI.

Reasonable notice IS required. What that is I have absolutely no idea, but leaving people with the impression they can come home, ask the tenant to leave that evening is pretty reckless IMO.

Michael D Not Higgins

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

It's hardly sematics. It's there in plain english from the CI.

Reasonable notice IS required. What that is I have absolutely no idea, but leaving people with the impression they can come home, ask the tenant to leave that evening is pretty reckless IMO.

I've followed up in your thread Reasonable Notice. I'd like to limit the legal discussion in A&P to the RTA thanks.

Mrs OBumble

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

It's hardly sematics. It's there in plain english from the CI.

CI get things wrong more often than you would expect.

Samuel T. Cogley

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

CI get things wrong more often than you would expect.

Frequently, but they're not wrong here. Further disccusion though in the linked thread.

4ensic15

A licencee in a house share with an owner occupier is in the same legal position as a guest in a hotel. Reasonable is a matter of construing the circumstances. If I book into a hotel for 3 nights, it is unreasonable for the hotel to come to the room on the first night and tell me to go for the sole reason that someone else has offered more money for a room. If however, on the first night, I am breaking the conditions of the contract or behaving unreasonably by shouting in corridors at 4 am, it may well be reasonable to eject me on the spot.
In a house share a landlord would be allowed a considerable measure of latitude in deciding what is reasonable. It is their home and if there is incompatibility with a tenant they would not be expected to continue living with that person for very long.

sondagefaux

I have lodgers. Their agreements state that I must give them 48 hours notice in normal circumstances or can throw them out immediately if they do anything illegal, including using or threatening to use violence against me or any other person in the house. 
No problems so far with this from any lodgers I've had.

cerastes

sondagefaux wrote: »

I have lodgers. Their agreements state that I must give them 48 hours notice in normal circumstances or can throw them out immediately if they do anything illegal, including using or threatening to use violence against me or any other person in the house.
No problems so far with this from any lodgers I've had.

Well, you are mad to do so, 48 hours if someone uses violence and the fact you have given them rights they dont have.
48 hours might be reasonable in reasonable circumstances, but what is reasonable or normal? violence or illegality is not.
You have given them right to stay to include, that they can do anything including threaten you with violence and you would still let them stay 48 hours.
Id have them out in as long as it took the Gardai to arrive in the case of violence, threats of it, or damage to my property or any of that to anyone else in the house.

virgo69

cerastes wrote: »

Well, you are mad to do so, 48 hours if someone uses violence and the fact you have given them rights they dont have.
48 hours might be reasonable in reasonable circumstances, but what is reasonable or normal? violence or illegality is not.
You have given them right to stay to include, that they can do anything including threaten you with violence and you would still let them stay 48 hours.
Id have them out in as long as it took the Gardai to arrive in the case of violence, threats of it, or damage to my property or any of that to anyone else in the house.

Eh doesn't the post say 48 hours in normal circumstances but in the case of violence, anything illegal they are out immediately? Or maybe I'm reading it wrong.

sondagefaux

cerastes wrote: »

sondagefaux wrote: »

I have lodgers. Their agreements state that I must give them 48 hours notice in normal circumstances or can throw them out immediately if they do anything illegal, including using or threatening to use violence against me or any other person in the house.
No problems so far with this from any lodgers I've had.

Well, you are mad to do so, 48 hours if someone uses violence and the fact you have given them rights they dont have.
48 hours might be reasonable in reasonable circumstances, but what is reasonable or normal? violence or illegality is not.
You have given them right to stay to include, that they can do anything including threaten you with violence and you would still let them stay 48 hours.
Id have them out in as long as it took the Gardai to arrive in the case of violence, threats of it, or damage to my property or any of that to anyone else in the house.

I think you've misread my post. 
If they do something illegal, including use of or threats of violence, they're out the door immediately. 
They get 48 hours notice under normal circumstances.

sondagefaux

virgo69 wrote: »

cerastes wrote: »

Well, you are mad to do so, 48 hours if someone uses violence and the fact you have given them rights they dont have.
48 hours might be reasonable in reasonable circumstances, but what is reasonable or normal? violence or illegality is not.
You have given them right to stay to include, that they can do anything including threaten you with violence and you would still let them stay 48 hours.
Id have them out in as long as it took the Gardai to arrive in the case of violence, threats of it, or damage to my property or any of that to anyone else in the house.

Eh doesn't the post say 48 hours in normal circumstances but in the case of violence, anything illegal they are out immediately?   Or maybe I'm reading it wrong.

No, you're dead right. The other poster read it wrong.

cerastes

virgo69 wrote: »

Eh doesn't the post say 48 hours in normal circumstances but in the case of violence, anything illegal they are out immediately? Or maybe I'm reading it wrong.

sondagefaux wrote: »

I think you've misread my post.
If they do something illegal, including use of or threats of violence, they're out the door immediately.
They get 48 hours notice under normal circumstances.

I did read it wrong, I somehow misread that?? thought it said, if they threaten you they get 48 hours to leave :eek: must be tired !?

worded

She knew the score when she moved in.