Check Point conduct.

Stephen Gawking

Hi all just wanted to get some info or guidance if I can. I was driving home from work last night through north county Dublin about 8pm or thereabouts when I came upon a large garda checkpoint on a country road. No problems, car is in roadworthy condition, taxed, insured, NCT etc & drivers license in order. Rolled up to the checkpoint which consisted of uniformed & armed gardai with body armour, masks etc. Was asked the standard questions ie where are you going? Where are you coming from? etc.

Again no problem all questions answered. Now I have quite a few tattoos where they can be seen as I was wearing short sleeves. Was asked about them which I thought odd but no problem. Nothing political/racist or dodgy. Was asked to step out of the car & walk back to a spotlight they had rigged up. They wanted to photograph me & my tattoos. Now this I found uncomfortable & I said it to them (politely) as other motorists would have been able to see me being photographed & jump to their own conclusions.

At this point the garda changed from being cordial & professional to downright menacing. I was told to shut the **** up, we know where you're going & what you're at & I could be either photographed here or back at the station & if you've any smart ideas you'll talk to him & gestured to one of his armed colleagues. Needless to say I'm shaken by the whole event. After about 30 minutes I was allowed on my way. Only to encounter another checkpoint at the top of the same road (about 1.5kms from the 1st checkpoint).

Basically I'm worried that I've been mistaken for someone else. Also, can they detain me like that & photograph me? I haven't been able to sleep a wink since this happened & I'm making excuses not to leave the house today but I have to go to work tomorrow. Any advice would be welcome. Thanks.

Sounds very strange to me & I'm nearly 20 years in AGS.

Little CuChulainn

Stephen Gawking wrote: »

Also, can they detain me like that & photograph me?

Not the way you describe. I would definitely report this to the Ombudsman. I would also send an email to the Inspectorate.

drunkmonkey

Threatening to set the guy wearing the balaclava and holding a machine gun on you if you don't comply was well out of order. I'd be reporting those twoMod deletion and looking for the pictures back.

I can see their side, Dubliner late at night, tatooos, country road but they made a baseless assumption and threatened and intimidated you. Mod deletion. Ranting

I really hope AGS know what their doing as the last place we want to end up is in an arms race between Garda and Criminals.

Mod.
Pls keep it civil here. No ranting pls

plodder

I passed an armed checkpoint in Swords last night. So, they must be looking for someone or something in the area. Pretty disturbing thing to happen all right. While, I'm sure they had their reasons for the request, there is no good reason for the aggressive and threatening behaviour.

bcklschaps

did you take/remember any shoulder numbers?

https://cosaint.wordpress.com/2013/01/27/gardai-shoulder-numbers/

emeldc

bubblypop wrote: »

Sounds very strange to me & I'm nearly 20 years in AGS.

So if you're a Garda for 20 yrs, are you allowed to detain and photograph someone at the side of the road without giving a good reason. Sounds like a reasonably simple question.

Turner

Never heard of this happening at any stage of my career.

If you are in a public place you can be photographed alright.

You cannot be detained in a public place or under the road traffic act for the purpose of giving a photograph.

SteoL

emeldc wrote: »

So if you're a Garda for 20 yrs, are you allowed to detain and photograph someone at the side of the road without giving a good reason. Sounds like a reasonably simple question.

Well (s)he said it was very strange which to me is an answer, i.e no.

FitzElla

AFAIK the Gardaí have no lawful basis to detain you for the purpose of a photograph unless you were arrested. The whole thing sounds a bit out there.

Elemonator

Take note of their shoulder number, go straight to GSOC and Inspectorate and hound them until something is done. Mod deletion. Pls keep it civil

Allinall

OP.
Are you sure they were genuine Gardai?

archer22

Sounds absolutely outrageous...they even insinuated you might get murdered if you failed to comply with their unlawful instructions !!.
Contact the Ombudsman without delay..before those clowns really do murder an innocent member of the public.

D3V!L

Allinall wrote: »

OP.
Are you sure they were genuine Gardai?

Or what? A group of lads with machine guns stopping cars ?

Pat Mustard

Mod:

Off topic post deleted. Please stay on topic.

cruizer101

There was a number of checkpoints around Balbriggan and the Helicopter out over the weekend and I heard on a few having their car searched so must have been on look out for something serious but that definitely doesn't make what happened to you ok

Kimbot

Probably all the gangland stuff going on at the moment, they seen the tattoos and thought prisons tats etc so are covering all bases by trying to gain intel on said gangs etc.

NUTLEY BOY

Before GSOC I would write to the Superintendent for the area, explain fully what happened, how that has left you and ask them to explain the proper legal basis on which they purported to act as they did.

I would not be confident of a comprehensive answer. I would expect a guarded and nuanced reply with a sprinkling of PR speak. However, the essence of the reply might actually answer the questions adequately for you.

If you are blanked or get an inadequate response I would then consider approaching GSOC if you really want to take it further.

Speaking for myself, I would not be remotely happy with that type of treatment. My worry about a complaint would be an inability to stand up any allegations independently or adequately corroboratively.

pilly

With the crackdown on gangs at the moment OP I think you may be right and that you've been mistaken for someone else.

My approach to it would be to call to your local garda station, explain what happened and gauge their response.

It might be easily cleared up.

If not then yeah, GSOC.

emeldc

SteoL wrote: »

Well (s)he said it was very strange which to me is an answer, i.e no.

Nope, could have been strange but legal or strange but illegal. That's all I asked. 'Turner' answered it.

dev100

archer22 wrote:

Sounds absolutely outrageous...they even insinuated you might get murdered if you failed to comply with their unlawful instructions !!. Contact the Ombudsman without delay..before those clowns really do murder an innocent member of the public.

Let's be very honest it's your word against theirs and yours will certainly not be believed in a court of law.

In all fairness a copper isn't going to gun you down in the middle of the road at point blank range. It would certainly be a lot of hassle and paperwork for said copper .

Civil interaction but give nothing away is my motto.

MarkR

dev100 wrote: »

Let's be very honest it's your word against theirs and yours will certainly not be believed in a court of law.

In all fairness a copper isn't going to gun you down in the middle of the road at point blank range. It would certainly be a lot of hassle and paperwork for said copper .

Civil interaction but give nothing away is my motto.

Can you make a data subject access request to the Gardai in relation to the data (picture / description) they have on you following this?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

dev100

MarkR wrote:

Can you make a data subject access request to the Gardai in relation to the data (picture / description) they have on you following this?

In theory any info being held about you is subject to data protection and should be subject you being able to get a copy but I would say the way things work here you won't be entitled !!! Maybe a guard can confirm ....

My advise yes/no answers don't interact and answer politely and don't get out of your car unless they want to search it. Show them your drivers license and keep your mouth shut .

Get some camera s with microphones and one facing front and back . And maybe have the phone switched on record. That way you have proof of I'll treatment .

archer22

dev100 wrote: »

Let's be very honest it's your word against theirs and yours will certainly not be believed in a court of law.

In all fairness a copper isn't going to gun you down in the middle of the road at point blank range. It would certainly be a lot of hassle and paperwork for said copper .

Civil interaction but give nothing away is my motto.

If he goes to the Ombudsman it will not be his word against theirs.
It will be depending on the Ombudsman's findings their word...which makes a big difference.
And contrary to perhaps some popular belief, the ombudsman has some good investigators who are skilled at worming their way to the truth.
As for" gun you down in the middle of the road" Oh don't be so sure that couldn't happen, just look at all the times they do it in America and elsewhere even in front of their own camera's...with usual excuse of" suspect reached for something under his jacket and feared for my life blah blah".

pilly

archer22 wrote: »

If he goes to the Ombudsman it will not be his word against theirs.
It will be depending on the Ombudsman's findings their word...which makes a big difference.
And contrary to perhaps some popular belief, the ombudsman has some good investigators who are skilled at worming their way to the truth.
As for" gun you down in the middle of the road" Oh don't be so sure that couldn't happen, just look at all the times they do it in America and elsewhere even in front of their own camera's...with usual excuse of" suspect reached for something under his jacket and feared for my life blah blah".

Ah now stop, when was the last time someone was shot dead by AGS? At a checkpoint?

archer22

pilly wrote: »

Ah now stop, when was the last time someone was shot dead by AGS? At a checkpoint?

When was the last time there was an implied threat to shoot a member of the public at an AGS checkpoint.

Allinall

archer22 wrote: »

When was the last time there was an implied threat to shoot a member of the public at an AGS checkpoint.

Never, I would say.

Little CuChulainn

Getting a bit dramatic here. Sounds like a case of mistake identity or of a couple of Gardaí abusing their authority. Maybe they just got promoted to the new armed units and are still on a high. If the op wants it investigated then contact the Ombudsman. Not much point contacting the local super if it was a national unit. The inspectorate won't investigate the individual incident but will look at the way checkpoints are being run in general.

drunkmonkey

wrote:

troll quote deleted

He threatened to hand him over to a faceless man in a balaclava who's holding a sub machine gun.

Mod
Rant removed. Please keep to legal discussion[/B]

drunkmonkey

wrote:

quote deleted

99% of them are reasonable there's the odd bully boy though, there not needed or wanted op would be best report him.

The guys in the masks aren't some GI Joe wannabes and have had pretty good careers in AGS already they didn't get the job by making threats nor do they want to be used as one I'd say.

Gatling

pilly wrote: »

Ah now stop, when was the last time someone was shot dead by AGS? At a checkpoint?

Wasn't somebody shot at a checkpoint in the last 18 months ,
To get back to the OP it's sounds like something you would read in america or see on a TV show,

Doesn't seem to be the average traffic check point

tayto lover

I was stopped at two different armed checkpoints on Sat night too in the Dundalk area. They were courteous but gave me a good check-out.
I thought it was good to see them at the time but I wouldn't like the treatment the OP got.

dev100

Mod
Rant removed. Pls stop that .....

I didn't think I was on a rant ?

dev100

archer22 wrote:

If he goes to the Ombudsman it will not be his word against theirs. It will be depending on the Ombudsman's findings their word...which makes a big difference. And contrary to perhaps some popular belief, the ombudsman has some good investigators who are skilled at worming their way to the truth. As for" gun you down in the middle of the road" Oh don't be so sure that couldn't happen, just look at all the times they do it in America and elsewhere even in front of their own camera's...with usual excuse of" suspect reached for something under his jacket and feared for my life blah blah".

Do you really believe that it wouldn't be down to his word against theirs ? Get real !!! Say if he had been roughed up or they ll just say he was acting suspiciously or that he agreed to step out of the vehicle for photos to be taken and that he wasn't threatened by anyone !!! 5 guardian statements against one civilian . You would need to show proof of wrong doing !!!

Discodog

I also think that it's the whole checkpoint thing that's so dated & militaristic. It's like wartime - show us your papers. I know that checkpoints do sometimes find things but, in Galway, they soon appear on Twitter.

Surely observation & undercover is the way to go. Not stopping people with tattoos.

Del2005

Discodog wrote: »

I also think that it's the whole checkpoint thing that's so dated & militaristic. It's like wartime - show us your papers. I know that checkpoints do sometimes find things but, in Galway, they soon appear on Twitter.

Surely observation & undercover is the way to go. Not stopping people with tattoos.

The people they are after have assault rifles and are willing to use them, you don't send people out to arrest them with only a batton.

They do plenty of observations and undercover work and that could have lead to a tip off that a load of guns/drugs/money was being moved. Sometimes overt works better than covert.

2012paddy2012

Find this very strange. Only when arrested and at a Garda station and with the authority of a sergeant can you be photographed.call to the local station and speak to the duty sergeant and relate the story. Sounds very odd indeed.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Discodog

Del2005 wrote: »

The people they are after have assault rifles and are willing to use them, you don't send people out to arrest them with only a batton.

They do plenty of observations and undercover work and that could have lead to a tip off that a load of guns/drugs/money was being moved. Sometimes overt works better than covert.

Really ? In the age of mobile phones & social media ? An unmarked Garda car is far harder to spot than a checkpoint which smacks of PR & showing a presence.

The obvious question is, if the methods work, why have these criminals being operating for years & years ?

TallGlass

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I don't see the ombudsman, believing that one either. As some members have already pointed out, that type of behavior is out of order to be perfectly honest.

I'd put money on, that if that armed lad overhead him saying that to the OP, he would have had a word with him. I would have, you don't get to that stage in AGS to have some lad use you like that. Let alone have the ombudsman looking at complaints issued against you. As for the photograph, haven't ever heard or come across that before.

Discodog

I have no experience of the Ombudsman but I know that UK police officers genuinely fear that IPCC. The Ombudsman will need to show a high level of credibility especially as the complaints are increasing. People won't believe that they can trust it until they see Garda being punished for wrongdoing.

Little CuChulainn

Discodog wrote: »

Really ? In the age of mobile phones & social media ? An unmarked Garda car is far harder to spot than a checkpoint which smacks of PR & showing a presence.

The obvious question is, if the methods work, why have these criminals being operating for years & years ?

They spot unmarked cars immediately. Mostly because they are all bought in bulk from the same supplier as the marked cars. Checkpoints are very useful but they aren't widespread and frequent enough to completely deter crime.

Discodog

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

They spot unmarked cars immediately. Mostly because they are all bought in bulk from the same supplier as the marked cars. Checkpoints are very useful but they aren't widespread and frequent enough to completely deter crime.

They must be a good supply of cars from seizures etc Unmarked traffic cars are easily spotted & soon end up on twitter. The battle against the gangs can't be about deterrence, nothing will deter them. Covert surveillance is now so easy & low cost.

If an armed gang were going to drive a certain route surely they would check it first ?

HeidiHeidi

Discodog wrote: »

I also think that it's the whole checkpoint thing that's so dated & militaristic. It's like wartime - show us your papers. I know that checkpoints do sometimes find things but, in Galway, they soon appear on Twitter.

Surely observation & undercover is the way to go. Not stopping people with tattoos.

Does it ever occur to people that maybe they do both, but you just don't see the undercover stuff?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Wombatman

Every time I've been stopped I've been asked "Are you working?". What is the point in asking such a question?

Discodog

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

Does it ever occur to people that maybe they do both, but you just don't see the undercover stuff?

Oh of course they do but maybe something has to change & if it does then are they open to change? The facts are that a relatively small group of, often known people, are acting out a feud. They are not the same as the people that were doing it years ago. They use technology.

Red Kev

Just a couple of questions on that incident, sorry if this is going OT. I'm just genuinely curious about these.

1. If I have a dash cam running in the car coming up to a checkpoint, do I have to make the Garda aware that it's there and recording?

2. If it's not switched on can I do so and if so, do I have to tell the Garda?

3. Can I insist that I would like to start to record the conversation on my mobile halfway through a conversation?

4. Do I have to tell the Garda?

5. Can the Garda instruct me to switch the recording device off and do I have to comply?

6. Can they remove any recording device from me or the car?

dev100

Wombatman wrote:

Every time I've been stopped I've been asked "Are you working?". What is the point in asking such a question?

It's a tactic to engage you in conversation....

Little CuChulainn

Discodog wrote: »

They must be a good supply of cars from seizures etc Unmarked traffic cars are easily spotted & soon end up on twitter. The battle against the gangs can't be about deterrence, nothing will deter them. Covert surveillance is now so easy & low cost.

If an armed gang were going to drive a certain route surely they would check it first ?

During my very first checkpoint as a student a car pulled up and the driver started chatting to me. My tutor came over and said hello to him using his name. He put the foot down and took off at speed. Turned out he was a suspected hitman and was carrying a gun. This was around the corner from the station.

The battle isn't fought through checkpoints alone, it is simply one part of it. Covert and overt surveillance is also used. CAB is used too. Checkpoints serve a purpose but nobody is suggesting they will solve all crime.