Best Dairy bull beef breed

satstheway

Hi all.
We usually ai first round of cows to frisian (to keep up our supply of frisian bulls)"joking"
Then in with a lim bull.
Lim bull for the road this year as I am not a fan of the breed.
What do others consider to be the best beef bulls to go with.
We do use some BB straws and can get some great calves but a BB bull if not right for Dairy can produce oversized hard to calve or poor quality frisian look-alikes.

What are other Dairy farmer opinions?

Icelandicseige

satstheway wrote: »

Hi all.
We usually ai first round of cows to frisian (to keep up our supply of frisian bulls)"joking"
Then in with a lim bull.
Lim bull for the road this year as I am not a fan of the breed.
What do others consider to be the best beef bulls to go with.
We do use some BB straws and can get some great calves but a BB bull if not right for Dairy can produce oversized hard to calve or poor quality frisian look-alikes.

What are other Dairy farmer opinions?

Yout can't beat Hereford for ease of calving and price of calf's. Bb areally ok too just some can be haRd calved.

mahoney_j

I bought an aubrac bull last year ,first calves due early March ,meant to be very easy calving and short gestation .herefords and Angus Bulls just too dear in comparasikn

Mac Taylor

satstheway wrote: »

Hi all.
We usually ai first round of cows to frisian (to keep up our supply of frisian bulls)"joking"
Then in with a lim bull.
Lim bull for the road this year as I am not a fan of the breed.
What do others consider to be the best beef bulls to go with.
We do use some BB straws and can get some great calves but a BB bull if not right for Dairy can produce oversized hard to calve or poor quality frisian look-alikes.

What are other Dairy farmer opinions?

Out of curiosity what was the issue with the limousin bull? Gestation/docility .
Thks.

satstheway

Mac Taylor wrote: »

Out of curiosity what was the issue with the limousin bull? Gestation/docility .
Thks.

The bull is actually quite quiet when he has settled in with the cows, it's the mad black calves I'm not a fan of. This is our 3rd lim and I really want a change.
Now I do have a liking to the red calves butility they don't turn up that often.
I know of some neighbours who have had good and bad results with BB.
I really am just asking to find out what breed ppl seam to agree they get above average good results.

Tyson Lannister

I've sold PT bulls to dairy farmers and its worked out well- v good demand for heifer calves as suckler cows

kerry cow

Use aa to mop herd good demand for calves and easy on the milking cow which is worth more than the value of t he calf .A cow in the skip is 1k down .alot of making up in that along with wobbly cows .

Who2

I know from the suckling side of things if I can get decent blue heifers off friesain I'd give a premium. Like aa too many lads putting the cheapest easy calving limos on their cows and ending up with narrow basically Holstein type cattle.

bogman_bass

on the right cow BB are a great choice but I stress that it has to be the right cow that can calve it. Shortest gestation of the Continentals and a very saleable calf

Sam Kade

mahoney_j wrote: »

I bought an aubrac bull last year ,first calves due early March ,meant to be very easy calving and short gestation .herefords and Angus Bulls just too dear in comparasikn

I was going to suggest the same. The only downside is that calves could be mistaken for jex if selling in the mart.

Sam Kade

bogman_bass wrote: »

on the right cow BB are a great choice but I stress that it has to be the right cow that can calve it. Shortest gestation of the Continentals and a very saleable calf

I used easy calving BB ai on friesian for a few years and never had a problem, I didn't even own a calving jack back then. But of course buying a bull is different.

blue5000

mahoney_j wrote: »

I bought an aubrac bull last year ,first calves due early March ,meant to be very easy calving and short gestation .herefords and Angus Bulls just too dear in comparasikn

Not a dairy farmer, suckling. But have had an aubrac bull for 6 years now. Only ever had to jack one out of a bb x aa heifer. Calves are born small, short gestation but they will look like jer x in the mart at 2 weeks old. If you are selling calves privately show buyers the bull. Get a wide bull to use on dairy cows. There may not be a market for heifer calves as suckler replacements in the future from dairy herds though.

I've never fed one by hand but you would know when you had an aubrac in the crush. Wouldn't be as bad as a lim or a blonde. If you are finishing them yourself you're sorted. Finishing mine as bulls, had one O, the rest are even split between R and U out of plain enough cows. They won't be huge, had a look at progeny in icbf and heaviest was 404kg dw.

They can be bought for half the price of an angus bull atm, but you will have to dehorn them:p I've been using the aubrac bull on aa cows and heifers and they are nearly all black, an odd red where there is lim in the cow's background. I am not sure what colour they'll be out of your cows, maybe dark brown with patches of white? Mahony keep us posted will ya:pac:

bogman_bass

Sam Kade wrote: »

I used easy calving BB ai on friesian for a few years and never had a problem, I didn't even own a calving jack back then. But of course buying a bull is different.

we used a lot of blue when we were milking on older cows.

I presumed the OP was using AI. I would never buy a blue stockbull

satstheway

bogman_bass wrote: »

we used a lot of blue when we were milking on older cows.

I presumed the OP was using AI. I would never buy a blue stockbull

Yes AI but would be unsure of a BB bull.
Probably Hereford the way to go.

Just we had good demand for BB heifers for cows and bulls look good and square at a year.

How would frisian bred aurbac look after a year?

mahoney_j

satstheway wrote: »

Yes AI but would be unsure of a BB bull.
Probably Hereford the way to go.

Just we had good demand for BB heifers for cows and bulls look good and square at a year.

How would frisian bred aurbac look after a year?

I'll let u know in early March 2018 !!!

Keepgrowing

Its Hereford here for mop up. Great sellers. I think the heifers may match or pass the Bulls in price. Have 2 guys buying them for suckler mothers. The star rating is a big plus with most making 5

mahoney_j

blue5000 wrote: »

Not a dairy farmer, suckling. But have had an aubrac bull for 6 years now. Only ever had to jack one out of a bb x aa heifer. Calves are born small, short gestation but they will look like jer x in the mart at 2 weeks old. If you are selling calves privately show buyers the bull. Get a wide bull to use on dairy cows. There may not be a market for heifer calves as suckler replacements in the future from dairy herds though.

I've never fed one by hand but you would know when you had an aubrac in the crush. Wouldn't be as bad as a lim or a blonde. If you are finishing them yourself you're sorted. Finishing mine as bulls, had one O, the rest are even split between R and U out of plain enough cows. They won't be huge, had a look at progeny in icbf and heaviest was 404kg dw.

They can be bought for half the price of an angus bull atm, but you will have to dehorn them:p I've been using the aubrac bull on aa cows and heifers and they are nearly all black, an odd red where there is lim in the cow's background. I am not sure what colour they'll be out of your cows, maybe dark brown with patches of white? Mahony keep us posted will ya:pac:

I'll keep ye posted blue ,won't be selling mine as calves will be kept and sold as year to year and a halves .defenitly be a hard sell as calves due to je like appearance .itll be interesting to see how they turn out as any stock after him will be from my heifers only .docility could def be an issue with them ,no way in hell I'd trust my lad .as I said earlier herefords and Angus price wise just put me off in comparasion to the aubrac .ill be buying another bull for cows this year and it'll either be a more mature aubrac or a saler

Sam Kade

Would an ayrshire bull be any good for selling bull calves off and keeping all heifers as replacements?

pedigree 6

Sam Kade wrote: »

Would an ayrshire bull be any good for selling bull calves off and keeping all heifers as replacements?

They're basically a Red Holstein though.
Although you would have a touch of hybrid vigour for your heifers for breeding and they do tend to last a long time.

There's a guy on twitter in England who has nice Dairy Shorthorns.
https://twitter.com/JRfromStrickley

If you were looking for a dual purpose cross on a sharpish cow other options would be British Friesian, Fleckvieh or some other of the red breeds.

Sam Kade

pedigree 6 wrote: »

They're basically a Red Holstein though.
Although you would have a touch of hybrid vigour for your heifers for breeding and they do tend to last a long time.

There's a guy on twitter in England who has nice Dairy Shorthorns.
https://twitter.com/JRfromStrickley

If you were looking for a dual purpose cross on a sharpish cow other options would be British Friesian, Fleckvieh or some other of the red breeds.

The shorthorns look tempting but for some reason they aren't great sellers at the mart, whatever buyers have against them. I saw a batch of well rounded shorthorn bullocks around 400kgs at the mart a few years ago and they were sold for small money.

pedigree 6

Sam Kade wrote: »

The shorthorns look tempting but for some reason they aren't great sellers at the mart, whatever buyers have against them. I saw a batch of well rounded shorthorn bullocks around 400kgs at the mart a few years ago and they were sold for small money.

If you want to go that route then the british Friesian is a good choice.
Or else the fleck or monty who have the bonus of a white head and usually have more milk than the BF.

It's hard to beat the ease of training in fr/hol heifers to milk though.:pac:

Crossbreds are tough hardy yokes though.

Sam Kade

pedigree 6 wrote: »

If you want to go that route then the british Friesian is a good choice.
Or else the fleck or monty who have the bonus of a white head and usually have more milk than the BF.

It's hard to beat the ease of training in fr/hol heifers to milk though.:pac:

Crossbreds are tough hardy yokes though.

What I'm looking for is a dual purpose bull for a reasonable price that I could keep the heifers and sell the bulls at a premium. On the other hand I could put all cows incalf to a beef bull and buy in heifer calves which would make things simpler.

GiantPencil

Have used our Saler bulls on the neighbours dairy farm to mop up any that didn't keep to ai. Never had a problem with calvings and their replacement indexes helped their resale value as well.

mycro2013

Aberdeen angus for trouble free calving. The homefarm changed from hereford to angus as a sweeper bull few years back on thé dairy herd no issues with calvings, cows going down or the likes. Calves are hardy and easily managed.

satstheway

mycro2013 wrote: »

Aberdeen angus for trouble free calving. The homefarm changed from hereford to angus as a sweeper bull few years back on thé dairy herd no issues with calvings, cows going down or the likes. Calves are hardy and easily managed.

Were you having problems calving the Hereford?

mycro2013

The cow going down is in thé extrême maybe once every two to three years.No major issues just the angus doesnt seem to knock back the cow as much as the pedigree hereford. He

Future Farmer

satstheway wrote: »

Hi all.
We usually ai first round of cows to frisian (to keep up our supply of frisian bulls)"joking"
Then in with a lim bull.
Lim bull for the road this year as I am not a fan of the breed.
What do others consider to be the best beef bulls to go with.
We do use some BB straws and can get some great calves but a BB bull if not right for Dairy can produce oversized hard to calve or poor quality frisian look-alikes.

What are other Dairy farmer opinions?

Hiya,

LM are in general too on gestation length (although some Kaprico Eravelle sons bucking that trend).

If I was you I'd AI to Friesian as you normally do, then do 2 weeks AI of say British Blue, which seem to be much easier than standard BB on the market for dairy cows but still with a premium, then go with a really short gestation HE (which they all are not necessarily!) or an Angus!

But that's just me....!

whelan2

Had a blue calf yesterday out of dbz, decent sized calf, cow calved herself served 25th April. Would use him again. Have br/fr cows here now and theres always a demand for angus calves off them. We breed our own angus bulls so use them

Mooooo

BB and AA would be my preference. DBZ a good blue in ai, have had no trouble with him but obviously wouldn't be sticking him on small cows/heifers. AA stock bull the last few years had HE before that and seemed to have had a few more rough calvings with the HE, I think the smaller heads on the aa and bb help the cow ease in to calving

Buford T. Justice XIX

Mooooo wrote: »

BB and AA would be my preference. DBZ a good blue in ai, have had no trouble with him but obviously wouldn't be sticking him on small cows/heifers. AA stock bull the last few years had HE before that and seemed to have had a few more rough calvings with the HE, I think the smaller heads on the aa and bb help the cow ease in to calving

I went looking for an He cow, in calf, a few years ago and went to a few breeders and I was fairly shocked about how much emphasis they seemed to put on the bulls head.

I bought an AA cow instead and am happy out with how easy they are to calve.
They are my late calvers so I would be looking for a bull with a short gestation and easy calving to help bring the cows back in with the main bunch again. I like the He but their heads bring me out into a cold sweat.

Bellview

Buford T. Justice V wrote:

I bought an AA cow instead and am happy out with how easy they are to calve. They are my late calvers so I would be looking for a bull with a short gestation and easy calving to help bring the cows back in with the main bunch again. I like the He but their heads bring me out into a cold sweat.

Agree on the heads there are a few aa bull in ai now that are more beef than dairy sons of rossiter are a great example of these .. but dairy boys know these bulls as they have slowed using them. Also bunlahy John g sons would be for suckler not dairy man

Future Farmer

I have found that Hereford breeders, not meaning to cause offence are generally a bit older and not breeding for their market: The Dairyman (woman).

Hereford breeders are:
-Not mad on polled
-Actually like big heads
-Not too bothered on gestation length

2014 figures:
http://imageshack.com/a/img921/3889/tW4x9H.png

The fact that 3 stock bulls made the top ten ped Hereford sires in 2014 of the other 7 - 3 are not for dairy cows, which leaves GZS GSQ CRP & FRZ of which only GSQ is 285 days Gestation Length with the others 286 & 287.

http://imageshack.com/a/img924/6264/TdWxFH.png

When the average Dairy gestation is 281 days.....

(Some of the AA sires round not ideal for dairy farmers/suckler maidens either!)

Bellview

Future Farmer wrote:

(Some of the AA sires round not ideal for dairy farmers/suckler maidens either!)

Agree...a lot of the bulls bought from show boys. Goulding and lisduff bull along with bunlahy are 3 examples of hard calvers. There was also a friars town bull who would be hard also. Any bull that does well in shows is generally a hard calver as the show boys want heavy bone

Bellview

Future Farmer wrote:

Hereford breeders are: -Not mad on polled -Actually like big heads -Not too bothered on gestation length

One of the polls in list is breeding a lot of horns.

whelan2

Bellview wrote: »

Agree...a lot of the bulls bought from show boys. Goulding and lisduff bull along with bunlahy are 3 examples of hard calvers. There was also a friars town bull who would be hard also. Any bull that does well in shows is generally a hard calver as the show boys want heavy bone

Remember ybm? He had bang breeding and calved small calves. Which was a surprise

satstheway

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I went looking for an He cow, in calf, a few years ago and went to a few breeders and I was fairly shocked about how much emphasis they seemed to put on the bulls head.

I bought an AA cow instead and am happy out with how easy they are to calve.
They are my late calvers so I would be looking for a bull with a short gestation and easy calving to help bring the cows back in with the main bunch again. I like the He but their heads bring me out into a cold sweat.

Just when I was changing my mind from BB to HE and then this is posted. Fecking big heads.

If I could get a AA crossed with BB and HE
I would be on to a winner

Bass Reeves

Dairy farmers have to make up there minds. What is the beef calf worth to them. As a beef farmer I am no longer interested in AA calves. I buy stores and too many light AA are not light for age but have very slow growth rates. If I see a light AA I am no longer interested even the good 450 kg AA store will struggle to kill 340kgs ( about 650 kgs) 10 months later.

A good LM store or a middle of the road FR is a better option. I can only see the price of the AA calf continuing to fall back just no longer interested in them as a store. TBH black cattle send the shivers down my spine, there could be Jex crosses in them sh!tty AA etc in the bunch. I have noticed the dairy farmers slipping away from the LM to the AA. The Hereford breeder's know that the day they follow the AA down the road of the small calf they might as well close up shop.

The whole calf price structure is way out of sync with the beef price, something has to give. I think the Hereford will hold it value but you will have to get up at night and pull a few out. The AA price will have to really correct visavia the Hereford which is overpriced

Bellview

Bass Reeves wrote:

Dairy farmers have to make up there minds. What is the beef calf worth to them. As a beef farmer I am no longer interested in AA calves. I buy stores and too many light AA are not light for age but have very slow growth rates. If I see a light AA I am no longer interested even the good 450 kg AA store will struggle to kill 340kgs ( about 650 kgs) 10 months later.

Bass Reeves wrote:

A good LM store or a middle of the road FR is a better option. I can only see the price of the AA calf continuing to fall back just no longer interested in them as a store. TBH black cattle send the shivers down my spine, there could be Jex crosses in them sh!tty AA etc in the bunch. I have noticed the dairy farmers slipping away from the LM to the AA. The Hereford breeder's know that the day they follow the AA down the road of the small calf they might as well close up shop.

Bass Reeves wrote:

The whole calf price structure is way out of sync with the beef price, something has to give. I think the Hereford will hold it value but you will have to get up at night and pull a few out. The AA price will have to really correct visavia the Hereford which is overpriced

There are two issues today. One the cow that now makes up the dairy herd is a very different animal to the Bf that was there 20 years ago. The jex being a great example of this. For these cows to calve there are rubbish bulls being used
The other challenge is that meat factories believe a beef can be fulfilled from the dairy herd...which drives the problem you have called out
Speaking to a few guys that buy calves they reckon he best dairy cows are in dovea region as there are more bfr in their country as the late dermot cahill was a great supporter of bfr

Buford T. Justice XIX

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Dairy farmers have to make up there minds. What is the beef calf worth to them. As a beef farmer I am no longer interested in AA calves. I buy stores and too many light AA are not light for age but have very slow growth rates. If I see a light AA I am no longer interested even the good 450 kg AA store will struggle to kill 340kgs ( about 650 kgs) 10 months later.

A good LM store or a middle of the road FR is a better option. I can only see the price of the AA calf continuing to fall back just no longer interested in them as a store. TBH black cattle send the shivers down my spine, there could be Jex crosses in them sh!tty AA etc in the bunch. I have noticed the dairy farmers slipping away from the LM to the AA. The Hereford breeder's know that the day they follow the AA down the road of the small calf they might as well close up shop.

The whole calf price structure is way out of sync with the beef price, something has to give. I think the Hereford will hold it value but you will have to get up at night and pull a few out. The AA price will have to really correct visavia the Hereford which is overpriced

For most dairy farmers, anything other than a friesian heifer is a byproduct. The most important thing is to get the cow milking and as suitable for breeding as possible. A horse of a beef calf isn't going to help my margin down the line if the cow slips later calving.

An extra €100 and a cow culled V a small calf and a cow ready to go in calf in a month.

Bellview

Yes. I used do a lot of showing back in the day that day I won the all Ireland with a heifer and he was reserve to me.
My heifer also was a bang.. bang crossed really well with cattle here as the dam as my lady was out of an Ernie while ybm was a Jumbo dam
Bang was underrated look at bohey jasper

Mooooo

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Dairy farmers have to make up there minds. What is the beef calf worth to them. As a beef farmer I am no longer interested in AA calves. I buy stores and too many light AA are not light for age but have very slow growth rates. If I see a light AA I am no longer interested even the good 450 kg AA store will struggle to kill 340kgs ( about 650 kgs) 10 months later.

A good LM store or a middle of the road FR is a better option. I can only see the price of the AA calf continuing to fall back just no longer interested in them as a store. TBH black cattle send the shivers down my spine, there could be Jex crosses in them sh!tty AA etc in the bunch. I have noticed the dairy farmers slipping away from the LM to the AA. The Hereford breeder's know that the day they follow the AA down the road of the small calf they might as well close up shop.

The whole calf price structure is way out of sync with the beef price, something has to give. I think the Hereford will hold it value but you will have to get up at night and pull a few out. The AA price will have to really correct visavia the Hereford which is overpriced

Tbh the beef calf is worth whatever lads are willing to pay for it, there isn't much for a dairy lad to make there mind up on. The move away from the likes of lim is due to gestation length and a good number of dairy lads aren't keeping bull/beef calves anymore. Also is the Jersey thing overplayed? If you look at the ai figures the number of je straws used is rel small.

Bellview

Mooooo wrote:

Tbh the beef calf is worth whatever lads are willing to pay for it, there isn't much for a dairy lad to make there mind up on. The move away from the likes of lim is due to gestation length and a good number of dairy lads aren't keeping bull/beef calves anymore. Also is the Jersey thing overplayed? If you look at the ai figures the number of je straws used is rel small.

The problem for guys on the jex is that bulls are registered as angus. The female percentage of jex is something crazy like 80 percent plus which we all know is crap.
Bigger issue is these jex dams crossed with a beef breed are only breeding rubbish...ironically the bull is always to blame .

Bass Reeves

Bellview wrote: »

There are two issues today. One the cow that now makes up the dairy herd is a very different animal to the Bf that was there 20 years ago. The jex being a great example of this. For these cows to calve there are rubbish bulls being used
The other challenge is that meat factories believe a beef can be fulfilled from the dairy herd...which drives the problem you have called out
Speaking to a few guys that buy calves they reckon he best dairy cows are in dovea region as there are more bfr in their country as the late dermot cahill was a great supporter of bfr

The answer is more complex than that. A lot of dairy men consider that they can produce any AA calf and as a heifer it is worth 130-150 and as a bull it is worth 200+. However lots of drystock farmers are copping on to the slow growth rates. It was the same when the jex first came on the s end some dairy farmers were registering them as AA and LM. A few years back there was the Brown Swiss that when crossed with a FR threw a Charley coloured calf. But after a while lads become aware of these types of calves and price them accordingly. Most lads will! Spot a Jersey cross calf at this stage. It is also o my a matter of time before all calves going into the AA and HE scheme are DNA tested.

The issue with sucklers is complex as well. Can suckler cows survive at a beef price of sub 4/kg and a weight limit of sub 400kgs DW.. The UK market which pays a premium above other markets is reluctant to take heavish suckler bred cattle. I am not altogether convinced that it is totally down tongue breed of dairy cow. You see from this thread lads talking about picking cows for you VB bull. A lot of this is that enough of a gap has not opened between poor quality and commercial quality calves

blue5000

satstheway wrote: »

Just when I was changing my mind from BB to HE and then this is posted. Fecking big heads.

If I could get a AA crossed with BB and HE
I would be on to a winner

I could sell you an aubrac x angus bull:D 5 stars too!

Bass Reeves

blue5000 wrote: »

I could sell you an aubrac x angus bull:D 5 stars too!

They are big into it in the USA and Canada breeding hybrid bulls for the suckler herd market. A lot of the cows are AA or HE and they want easy calving bulls but not at the expense of a commercial calf. Specialist breeders cross AA and HE cows to Fleckveigh (a simenintal breed) bulls to produce half breed bulls, they are doing it with CH and LM as well some are even breeding 3/4 traditional breed bulls and a quarter Contenital breeding. The idea is not to compromise on calf birth weight but to get that hybrid vigour and a good growth rate that produces a commercial calf with a light birth weight that will get up and suck by himself but will grow faster than traditional breed cattle.

I saw a lad that had a 3/4 bred HE bull that was 1/4 LM. His was a suckler herd with HE cows. He was of the opinion that the calves were easier to calf than pure bred HE and we're better to thrive. I think too many bull breeders and dairy men consider the answer to birthweight as small bul?S with poor LW gain

older by the day

I found this old tread. Dovea has a Belgium blue called Norton jaguar. I had only one calf off him last year off a montbeliarde cow. A really great calf. A bit big had to use the Jack. Wondering has others here used him on fresians

davidk1394

What are peoples thoughts on an easy calving LM on heifers ?

cosatron

davidk1394 wrote: »

What are peoples thoughts on an easy calving LM on heifers ?

the only bulls to use on heifers are Aberdeen angus/Hereford/ or Friesian and its not up for discussion

Buford T. Justice XIX

davidk1394 wrote: »

What are peoples thoughts on an easy calving LM on heifers ?

For me, no. The Limos tend towards longer gestation and harder calving. In your situation, I'd be going for shorter gestation bulls maybe like KYA and easy calving friesians.

Get them calved and back cycling as easily and quickly as possible with preferrably a friesian heifer to follow on afterwards, especially when starting off?

Bellview

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

For me, no. The Limos tend towards longer gestation and harder calving. In your situation, I'd be going for shorter gestation bulls maybe like KYA and easy calving friesians.

Get them calved and back cycling as easily and quickly as possible with preferrably a friesian heifer to follow on afterwards, especially when starting off?

While kya is easy calving and they are really healthy calves.. the temperament of his sons is often poor as they can be head bangers .. generally the sons of a number of Uk bulls rossiter bosullow elmark, Rawburn transformer etc are hard calving and also if the bull has the nt821 gene is also generally harder calved include Goulding man o man, treebridge bulls. In fairness the UK breeders have brought in American Angus genetics to help ease calving where bulls like americano have left a positive in terms of fleshed cattle and easy calving

K.G.

davidk1394 wrote: »

What are peoples thoughts on an easy calving LM on heifers ?

Potential calving problems
Gambling with you highest value stock
Loss of milk yield due to extra time
Loss of milk due to difficult calving
Potential problems with future breeding calving slippage⁰
Its all about milk in the tank and the potential extra 100 euro in calf value wouldn't be long disappearing if it went wrong