Attic conversion with a view to rent it out

ArnieSilvia

So, the attic conversion is on the cards:eek:

The overall area will be 38 sqm, 70-80% of it over 2m high, south facing roof so plenty of light which can be carried to the planned bedroom on north side (via channel as roof is very high). I can't put windows on the north side due to PP.

The staircase in my house is very unusual, in the middle of it (across) so exact same staircase can be put all way up (repeating the pattern) to the attic with door at the attic end.

The size and the independent nature of conversion brought an idea of renting it out to a lodger once complete. I'm greedy, I know:D

I drew a basic plan yesterday and it would be possible to create a self-contained 1 bed cosy apartment there (living/dining for two, family kitchen, double bed and ensuite, all in decent size). It might even suit a couple without kids.

I wouldn't have any issue with lodger if there was limited interference due to self-contained nature of the apartment in the attic (no fights over tv or sharing fridge/sink/cooking/bathroom etc), no issue with sharing same entrance/stairs or the garden, quite opposite in fact. IMO best of both worlds (tax free extra income which will pay for conversion and social aspect without sharing bathrooms etc, plus increased house value). We've got quite big social circle so most likely the lodger would be a known person.


Estimated cost of building work is 17-20k (contracted out, based on similar jobs done in the area) and then 10k for the kitchen and furniture. Estimated rent 800 per month so it would pay for itself in 3 years.

Apart from getting PP (potential problems here?) and compliance with building regulations & fire safety (contractor's job) is there something obvious that I'm missing?

To clarify, I would never rent it out as an apartment but as a room to a lodger. However, tenant rights (as I read o Boards:pac:) are factual not contractual () and I wouldn't want to get into trouble in the light of current tenant laws

Ray Palmer

The real problem is the building regs. The stairs you described don't sound like they would be allowable. Been a while since I looked but stairs to an attic room used to required to enclosed with a certain fire standard.
The ceiling joists need to be reinforced for the floor which is often not costed or done by a contractor unless you explicitly state it.

the_syco

ArnieSilvia wrote: »

To clarify, I would never rent it out as an apartment but as a room to a lodger. However, tenant rights (as I read o Boards:pac:) are factual not contractual () and I wouldn't want to get into trouble in the light of current tenant laws

If it's in the same house that shares a common door, AFAIK they'd be a licencee.

68 lost souls

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The real problem is the building regs. The stairs you described don't sound like they would be allowable. Been a while since I looked but stairs to an attic room used to required to enclosed with a certain fire standard.
The ceiling joists need to be reinforced for the floor which is often not costed or done by a contractor unless you explicitly state it.

Ceiling joists may or may not be required. Some are to spec from the start with the intention of converting later

Gumbo

ArnieSilvia wrote: »

Apart from getting PP (potential problems here?) and compliance with building regulations & fire safety (contractor's job) is there something obvious that I'm missing?

Yes, its not the contractors job to comply with The Building Regulations, it is in the home owner, and that's you! IF you don't have the competency to demonstrate compliance, then you engage an Engineer, Architect, Surveyor or similar.

ArnieSilvia wrote: »

The overall area will be 38 sqm, 70-80% of it over 2m high, south facing roof so plenty of light which can be carried to the planned bedroom on north side (via channel as roof is very high). I can't put windows on the north side due to PP.

The staircase in my house is very unusual, in the middle of it (across) so exact same staircase can be put all way up (repeating the pattern) to the attic with door at the attic end.

From a Building Control point of view, this would be classed as a domestic extension / Internal Alteration.

You would need to comply with all of the Building Regulations, but in particular, Part A (Structure) & Part B (Fire Safety).

You are creating an additional storey within your dwelling, so the attic floor will need to be structurally upgraded depending on existing joists in place. You need escape from the attic room, so the roof lights have to comply with TGD Part B.

The stairs (TGD Part K) can be relaxed for loft conversions.

4ensic15

If you are putting in a kitchen you will be creating a new dwelling, so pp required. Any occupants would be tenants, not lodgers, although you would qualify under the rent a room tax regime. As for increasing value, it may not. Not many people want a flat in their attic. You will have to tell you mortgage provider and your house insurance.

Gumbo

4ensic15 wrote: »

If you are putting in a kitchen you will be creating a new dwelling, so pp required. Any occupants would be tenants, not lodgers, although you would qualify under the rent a room tax regime. As for increasing value, it may not. Not many people want a flat in their attic. You will have to tell you mortgage provider and your house insurance.

Kitchen could be ancillary to the main use of the main dwelling, so no planning required.

Could be a good argument if a complaint to planning enforcement was lodged.

4ensic15

kceire wrote: »

Kitchen could be ancillary to the main use of the main dwelling, so no planning required.

Could be a good argument if a complaint to planning enforcement was lodged.

There is already a kitchen. It would be deemed as creating a new dwelling. The o/p is talking about creating a granny flat.

Gumbo

4ensic15 wrote: »

There is already a kitchen. It would be deemed as creating a new dwelling. The o/p is talking about creating a granny flat.

Ancillary, means in addition to the existing! it's not a new dwelling. It's an alteration within the existing envelope of the existing building. I've been there before

jimmycrackcorm

4ensic15 wrote: »

There is already a kitchen. It would be deemed as creating a new dwelling. The o/p is talking about creating a granny flat.

Define kitchen? If I were to put a sink, fridge and electric cooker in my bedroom - would that mean my 3 bed Semi-D is now two dwellings?

4ensic15

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Define kitchen? If I were to put a sink, fridge and electric cooker in my bedroom - would that mean my 3 bed Semi-D is now two dwellings?

Yes. That was the test applied by the planners when houses in Rathmines were being converted to flats. A friend of mine was prosecuted over it.

4ensic15

4ensic15 wrote: »

If you are putting in a kitchen you will be creating a new dwelling, so pp required. Any occupants would be tenants, not lodgers, although you would qualify under the rent a room tax regime. As for increasing value, it may not. Not many people want a flat in their attic. You will have to tell you mortgage provider and your house insurance.

They would use the same front door and walk through the house to get to their room. They would be a licence 100%.

Gumbo

4ensic15 wrote: »

Yes. That was the test applied by the planners when houses in Rathmines were being converted to flats. A friend of mine was prosecuted over it.

Multiple flats in a unit is a different kettle of fish entirely.
You have a whole different set of rules there with regards to planning, fire safety and disabled access.

A new kitchen in the attic of an existing house would not be prosecuted nor would it bring on enforcement proceedings based on my personal experience. The fire safety provisions around 3 storey dwellings would obviously kick in though.

newacc2015

kceire wrote: »

Ancillary, means in addition to the existing! it's not a new dwelling. It's an alteration within the existing envelope of the existing building. I've been there before

Do you know if granny flats have tenancy standards applied to them? ie those OP need to worry about ensuring he has a 4 ring hob, access to a washer/dryer, a microwave etc.

Because in the eyes of the RTB a granny flat is a tenancy agreement, but in the eyes of revenue if it is connected to the main house via a door it is under rent-a-room. So do the bog standard tenancy rental standards apply?

Or could OP just tell the tenant under Section 25 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 that they apply it to them and they aren't tenants and not have to comply with some of the standards.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2004/act/27/section/25/enacted/en/html#sec25

Mrs OBumble

ArnieSilvia wrote: »

south facing roof so plenty of light which can be carried to the planned bedroom on north side (via channel as roof is very high). I can't put windows on the north side due to PP.

Bedroom with no windows? Are you having a laugh????

76544567

<quote snipped>
I did more or less what you are talking about doing in the past and it was quite easy quite cheap to do, and totally legal.
If you search my previous posts you will find where I posted about it.
When I rented it out it was as a house share. Tenants and myselfs paths never crossed because the division was done that way.

4ensic15

newacc2015 wrote: »

Do you know if granny flats have tenancy standards applied to them? ie those OP need to worry about ensuring he has a 4 ring hob, access to a washer/dryer, a microwave etc.

Because in the eyes of the RTB a granny flat is a tenancy agreement, but in the eyes of revenue if it is connected to the main house via a door it is under rent-a-room. So do the bog standard tenancy rental standards apply?

Or could OP just tell the tenant under Section 25 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 that they apply it to them and they aren't tenants and not have to comply with some of the standards.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2004/act/27/section/25/enacted/en/html#sec25

That section does not make licencees of tenants. It is confined to one part of the Act. It simply makes it easier for the landlord remove tenants.

worded

Consider sound proofing their floor. Cost approx 1K

Attics can be too warm in summer and too cold in winter. Look Into ventilation / air conditioning

ArnieSilvia

Thank you all for the replies and PM:)

I aim for very high standard and I planned to employ an Architect to advise on the conversion requirements incl. fire safety, joists upgrade, window positioning, required beam strength, insulation, size of stairs and windows (fire regs). I might be able to attach a retractable ladder to adjoining building for extra escape route or something similar (I feel this is a must).

IMO if I bring people in, everything needs to be spot on incl full PP, 9x2 ceiling joists (or stronger if req'd), proper insulation everywhere. It's a new house so I'll also have to deal with moving solar panel and heat recovery system making it a bit more complex than your usual attic storage area.

I aim for high quality of fit and finish incl. kitchen and furniture, both to attract lodgers as well as for their own well being and not feeling left out as the rest of the house is done to a nice standard. It'll be much better than the usual 1 bed apt.

It seems like I'll have to ask RTB how they view the licencee/tenant situation in this application however there seems to be a consensus that if sharing the entrance then it's a license agreement. I assume that I can draw a licence agreement where I specify one room in the house (on the attic) and the shared use of the ancillary kitchen and living room.

Planning seems to be a major headache then. Would anyone know who would be the best to ask about it (Council or Architect)? In reality I will be creating a dwelling as there is a plan for separate kitchen. I can prob get PP for the bedroom and then put the kitchen in however this might land me with problems
I'm not concerned about the cost of building work in order to meet the requirements as I wouldn't skimp a cent on it anyway. I want to make it a cosy, decent place to live.

I presume it'll cost more to get permission for this compared to permission for a bedroom on the attic. Anybody know how much? I heard from my neighbour that it was in the region of 1.5k for the bedroom PP. Would a separate dwelling be a 3/5k or rather 10/20k affair?

ArnieSilvia

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Bedroom with no windows? Are you having a laugh????

Nope, there will be windows and natural light, just higher up and not directly over the bed. Otherwise it would be a sad place wouldn't it;)

All of this makes me feel lucky but attic size/height and staircase arrangement were one of key aspects of the house when buying it, either for extra room if we outgrew the house or maybe for my kids to be able to start living on their own the easy way (won't be long:eek:).

I attached pics of the staircase below.

El Kabong!

Is this house in Portmarnock by chance? The design looks familiar. If it is then I know of people who have converted the attic as a storage room with a sliding ladder for occasional access. I don't think the attic space is enough for more than 1 room.

ArnieSilvia

4ensic15 wrote: »

If you are putting in a kitchen you will be creating a new dwelling, so pp required. Any occupants would be tenants, not lodgers, although you would qualify under the rent a room tax regime. As for increasing value, it may not. Not many people want a flat in their attic. You will have to tell you mortgage provider and your house insurance.

I'm quite sure that if done properly, extra 38 sqm and extra bedroom with ensuite would definitely add value in any case. New owner might want to use the attic as an apartment or as a bedroom + study/play area/instruments you name it. Kitchen is an addition that can be removed easily.

There's very few 4 bed houses in the area and some of these are over 3 floors as well, currently 345k for 4 bed vs 275k for 3 bed.

BUT it has to be done properly right first time, hence me asking on good ole' boards:D what's involved and where to look for more information.

ArnieSilvia

El Kabong! wrote: »

Is this house in Portmarnock by chance? The design looks familiar. If it is then I know of people who have converted the attic as a storage room with a sliding ladder for occasional access. I don't think the attic space is enough for more than 1 room.

It's in Lucan area, possibly a one off as all my neighbours have different layout (it was a showhouse). I really like how it was planned as it's very unusual with square-ish very functional living room and large kitchen at a cost of extra corridors.

I'll draw another floor plan later on and upload it to give more idea.

Gumbo

newacc2015 wrote: »

Do you know if granny flats have tenancy standards applied to them? ie those OP need to worry about ensuring he has a 4 ring hob, access to a washer/dryer, a microwave etc.

Because in the eyes of the RTB a granny flat is a tenancy agreement, but in the eyes of revenue if it is connected to the main house via a door it is under rent-a-room. So do the bog standard tenancy rental standards apply?

Or could OP just tell the tenant under Section 25 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 that they apply it to them and they aren't tenants and not have to comply with some of the standards.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2004/act/27/section/25/enacted/en/html#sec25

Cant really answer that, but one of the conditions attached to every grant of planning permission for granny flats stipulate that it not to be separated by lease or sale, so essentially, you cannot rent out a grant flat according to planning law.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Bedroom with no windows? Are you having a laugh????

Hopefully not, the windows will need to comply with the fire escape regulations as per TGD Part B. If the OP cannot do this then they may not get anywhere with the project.

ArnieSilvia wrote: »

I aim for very high standard and I planned to employ an Architect to advise on the conversion requirements incl. fire safety, joists upgrade, window positioning, required beam strength, insulation, size of stairs and windows (fire regs). I might be able to attach a retractable ladder to adjoining building for extra escape route or something similar (I feel this is a must).

Good Decision.

ArnieSilvia wrote: »

IMO if I bring people in, everything needs to be spot on incl full PP, 9x2 ceiling joists (or stronger if req'd), proper insulation everywhere. It's a new house so I'll also have to deal with moving solar panel and heat recovery system making it a bit more complex than your usual attic storage area.

This could prove costly and you are limited in where you can place them. Also, because its a new house, you need to check the original planning permission to see if it de-exempted the exemptions.

ArnieSilvia wrote: »

It'll be much better than the usual 1 bed apt.

It wont really, as it wont have its own entrance.

ArnieSilvia wrote: »

Planning seems to be a major headache then. Would anyone know who would be the best to ask about it (Council or Architect)? In reality I will be creating a dwelling as there is a plan for separate kitchen. I can prob get PP for the bedroom and then put the kitchen in however this might land me with problems
I'm not concerned about the cost of building work in order to meet the requirements as I wouldn't skimp a cent on it anyway. I want to make it a cosy, decent place to live.

You are not creating a new dwelling.

ArnieSilvia wrote: »

I presume it'll cost more to get permission for this compared to permission for a bedroom on the attic. Anybody know how much? I heard from my neighbour that it was in the region of 1.5k for the bedroom PP. Would a separate dwelling be a 3/5k or rather 10/20k affair?

You will not get permission for a new dwelling in your attic space.

ArnieSilvia

kceire wrote: »

You are not creating a new dwelling.

You will not get permission for a new dwelling in your attic space.

Correct if I'm wrong, so the way forward would be apply for the PP for bedroom in the attic space, build and then add anciliary kitchen. And whoever asks, explain that plumbing etc is for a tea station:D so I don't have to go downstairs to make a cuppa:pac:

Gumbo

ArnieSilvia wrote: »

Correct if I'm wrong, so the way forward would be apply for the PP for bedroom in the attic space, build and then add anciliary kitchen. And whoever asks, explain that plumbing etc is for a tea station:D so I don't have to go downstairs to make a cuppa:pac:

You can show the kitchen plan on the attic floor plan but you have to be careful with area, rooms and means of escape with is Part B of the Building Regulations, nothing to do with Planning.

4ensic15

kceire wrote: »

Kitchen could be ancillary to the main use of the main dwelling, so no planning required.

Could be a good argument if a complaint to planning enforcement was lodged.

Ancillary means used by the same household. Renting it out would not be ancillary.

Gumbo

4ensic15 wrote: »

Ancillary means used by the same household. Renting it out would not be ancillary.

It's renting out of a room with the same entrance as the main dwelling. The house has not been sub divided as such.

I have real life working experience of this in a Dublin city and no planning or building control enforcements were followed through with after complaints.

Samuel T. Cogley

Regardless of the tax implications, I believe one could argue that from either side, do you really want to create an additional kitchen up there? If you're up for housemates great, if not I wouldn't. The amount of time mine spends in the kitchen is minimal at best. Create a nice, compliant ensuite and leave the kitchen where it belongs on the ground floor, well ventilated and with easy exit.

A proper bedroom could be a nice draw for buyers in the future. A dingey granny flat, with loads of wear from cooking fry-up within a few feet of the bedroom a major downer.

isnottheword

kceire wrote: »

It's renting out of a room with the same entrance as the main dwelling. The house has not been sub divided as such.

What if it has it's own entrance PLUS a connecting door to the original part of the house?

OP, have you gotten any further with this? What type of roof is it? Any further thoughts on reinforcing / soundproofing - practical implications of same and costs?

What about insulation?


What type of roof is it - cut or truss? What's the additional cost implication of adapting a trussed roof space??

Gumbo

isnottheword wrote: »

What if it has it's own entrance PLUS a connecting door to the original part of the house?

OP, have you gotten any further with this? What type of roof is it? Any further thoughts on reinforcing / soundproofing - practical implications of same and costs?

What about insulation?


What type of roof is it - cut or truss? What's the additional cost implication of adapting a trussed roof space??

It's own entrance to a roof space?
Most likely won't get planning due to how it will look and effect adjoining houses, streetscape etc

isnottheword

kceire wrote: »

It's own entrance to a roof space?
Most likely won't get planning due to how it will look and effect adjoining houses, streetscape etc

Hmm...my bad - I have not explained properly.

Original House -> New House Extension with connecting door to the original house. Extension has it's own 'door'. Attic conversion to be accessed from here.

ArnieSilvia

isnottheword wrote:

OP, have you gotten any further with this? What type of roof is it? Any further thoughts on reinforcing / soundproofing - practical implications of same and costs?

Decision was made but I'm waiting for funding - I need a permanent position first.

I visited kingspan factory a while back, they gave me a good brochure about insulation.

Cost wise it's about 20-25k depending on extras