Outlander PHEV - slow vs. fast charging

isnottheword

Went to charge my Leaf a little earlier. For the first time, the FCP was taken up by a ruddy Outlander. If it had been a Zoe or Leaf, I wouldn't have gone near it.


However (rightly or wrongly - and I know opinions will differ on this) - I plugged it out and charged mine over 25 minutes.

Would the charger have allowed me to remove it if it had been actively charging?

Secondly, what's the difference for an Outlander owner in charging at a FCP as opposed to a SCP?


I left a note for them saying "dont clog up EV infrastructure with a PHEV". I've NEVER unplugged anyone ever before - some of you will think this is disgusting perhaps but to hell with it - I needed the charge to get 40 miles home - they dont!

cros13

isnottheword wrote: »

Would the charger have allowed me to remove it if it had been actively charging?

Nope... would have been locked if it was still active.

isnottheword wrote: »

Secondly, what's the difference for an Outlander owner in charging at a FCP as opposed to a SCP?

It's a bit pointless. They get about a 1:1 ratio of charging time to driving time on Chademo. And they block the infrastructure for the rest of us.

isnottheword

cros13 wrote: »

Nope... would have been locked if it was still active.

That's what I thought. So that **** 'nice gentleman' was locking up access to that charger for most of the night most likely before I came across him.

There's only ONE FCP in Galway city out of hours (Windsor Nissan have one - but only during office hours and the next one is outside the city in Carnmore)....so he would have been preventing anyone that really needed a charge from accessing.

cros13 wrote: »

It's a bit pointless. They get about a 1:1 ratio of charging time to driving time on Chademo. And they block the infrastructure for the rest of us.

That's also good to know - what sort of a clown would do that with a SCP right beside it (and plenty of other SCPs around the City)?

I'll be pressing the emergency button if he shows up again. I regret not being more hardline in the submission I made to the CER on EV infrastructure use during the consulation process! These guys need to be BANNED completely from public infrastructure - end of. They can charge at home and/or work.

n97 mini

I would be of the opinion that they should be disallowed from using FCPs alright. There are too few and most people need them to complete their journey.

stesaurus

Yep anything not drawing a 'fast' charge from an FCP should be disconnected. Now the definition of 'Fast' will differ but probably anything less than 7kw should not be possible. Once a charging car tapers off below that level it should disconnect and allow the next user on. Move along to an SCP/home charging or continuing on to the next FCP on their journey

isnottheword

s.welstead wrote: »

Yep anything not drawing a 'fast' charge from an FCP should be disconnected. Now the definition of 'Fast' will differ but probably anything less than 7kw should not be possible. Once a charging car tapers off below that level it should disconnect and allow the next user on. Move along to an SCP/home charging or continuing on to the next FCP on their journey

I agree in spirit with what you say. The distinction between PHEV and BEV is that the former really don't need to use the public infrastructure. They can leave the house in the morning with a full charge (and possibly charge at their workplace). That should be enough for them.

The BEV scenario is completely different. If we can't get on to the public charging network, we are screwed. As regards kicking anyone off at a certain level, I'm not sure I agree. There are times when I have to charge to 100% (taking last week as an example when I was cutting across charging wasteland from north galway thru to athlone - I needed in excess of 90% charge.

There are circumstances where it may be necessary. Given that the chargebump initiative seems to have failed, it would be great if it could be rolled in / incorporated into the ecars app.

stesaurus

isnottheword wrote: »

I agree in spirit with what you say. The distinction between PHEV and BEV is that the former really don't need to use the public infrastructure. They can leave the house in the morning with a full charge (and possibly charge at their workplace). That should be enough for them.

The BEV scenario is completely different. If we can't get on to the public charging network, we are screwed. As regards kicking anyone off at a certain level, I'm not sure I agree. There are times when I have to charge to 100% (taking last week as an example when I was cutting across charging wasteland from north galway thru to athlone - I needed in excess of 90% charge.

There are circumstances where it may be necessary. Given that the chargebump initiative seems to have failed, it would be great if it could be rolled in / incorporated into the ecars app.

Generally I'd agree with you in theory and if nobody else was behind you in the queue then fair enough but because the infrastructure only has a single FCP at each location it's not really fair to charge at slow rates ahead of someone else who can charge much much quicker.
We're limited by the available resources so we should be sharing it better or at the least it's most efficient. Locals topping off with free power I'm looking at you

Not having a go at you but was there no SCPs along the route that you could have got the remainder from?
And again this is only an issue if someone was waiting to use the charger. If not then work away as long as you stay there to explain.
Nothing worse than getting to an FCP and you can see an abandoned car that is eeking out power but you have no idea when owner will be back or whether they actually need it.

KCross

I'd hazard a guess that alot of Outlander users dont realise the pain they are causing.
EV, PHEV, fast, rapid, 3.3kW, etc etc.... "people" dont understand all the ins and outs of it.

They bought the car and were told they could use all these free chargers and so they do.

Its going to take time to educate.

Although I'd say charging for charging will be in before that education happens and no one needs education when they find they have to put their hands in their wallets.... that will be the end of the PHEV's on the rapids... like in the UK where they publically said they wanted to exclude the PHEV users from using the rapids. That was one of the reasons why they said they wanted a time based charging mechanism. No PHEV user is going to pay £6 for 30mins!

n97 mini

s.welstead wrote: »

Yep anything not drawing a 'fast' charge from an FCP should be disconnected. Now the definition of 'Fast' will differ but probably anything less than 7kw should not be possible. Once a charging car tapers off below that level it should disconnect and allow the next user on. Move along to an SCP/home charging or continuing on to the next FCP on their journey

That's probably fair enough. I watched a Leaf charge today on a FCP at 2.9kw. It was at 86%. The other 14% could have been had on an SCP.

isnottheword

s.welstead wrote: »

Not having a go at you but was there no SCPs along the route that you could have got the remainder from?

sorry - should have clarified. In the case of that journey, I was starting out from a SCP - then taking backroads from North Galway through to Athlone with NO charger of any kind available en-route.

Other than that, I do charge a little bit over the 80% - usually 82% - on a FCP in Galway - Monday to Friday - as thats what I need to get home.

isnottheword

KCross wrote: »

I'd hazard a guess that alot of Outlander users dont realise the pain they are causing.
EV, PHEV, fast, rapid, 3.3kW, etc etc.... "people" dont understand all the ins and outs of it.

They bought the car and were told they could use all these free chargers and so they do.

Its going to take time to educate.

Agreed - but as part of that 'education', we all have a part to play. I left a note under their wiper clarifying that they shouldn't tie up a fast charger from those of us that rely solely on the infrastructure in order to get where we need to go.

I'd advise all other BEV'ers to do likewise - the message will eventually sink in.

I've seen user behaviour change at the SCP that I use on a regular basis. Initially (as practically nobody uses it), locals were parking up in their ICE's without a care in the world. Since I started using it regularly, they rarely do this anymore.

unkel

The only thing that's gonna work here is charge by the minute.

n97 mini

unkel wrote: »

The only thing that's gonna work here is charge by the minute.

Unfair as not all cars charge equally.

unkel

Going from one situation to another is always going to be unfair on someone. Sometimes it's best to maximise the benefit for most people, even if it means some don't benefit

Charging by the kWh is fairer but would probably not prevent your man from plugging in. Or maybe it would?

A right eejit though that PHEV owner to plug in to save what, €0.25? Presuming plugging in didn't mean he avoided parking charges, he's either an imbecile or completely ignorant his savings are that miniscule...

isnottheword

unkel wrote: »

Charging by the kWh is fairer but would probably not prevent your man from plugging in. Or maybe it would?

Charge by the kWh - and PHEVs excluded from public charging. They can charge at home. They have no solid reason to tie up a fragile bare-bones of an EV charging network with those big Outlander tanks.

cros13

isnottheword wrote: »

Charge by the kWh - and PHEVs excluded from public charging. They can charge at home. They have no solid reason to tie up a fragile bare-bones of an EV charging network with those big Outlander tanks.

I have no problem with PHEVs using any of the public infrastructure except the Rapids.

KCross

Maybe a per kWh charge for the first 30mins and then a progressively more punitive rate beyond that?

Regardless of what we'd like I'm sure the CER and eCars wont give it to us anyway!

n97 mini

unkel wrote: »

Going from one situation to another is always going to be unfair on someone. Sometimes it's best to maximise the benefit for most people, even if it means some don't benefit

Aside from Ioniq owners it'd pretty much punish everyone else.

And even at that Ioniq owners would be paying by the minute for a charge rate that's well below what the car can do.

isnottheword

KCross wrote: »

Maybe a per kWh charge for the first 30mins and then a progressively more punitive rate beyond that?

Potentially, a workable compromise. That said, for my Leaf, I'm having to exceed the 30 mins in order to get enough charge on board for the long commute home.

KCross wrote: »

Regardless of what we'd like I'm sure the CER and eCars wont give it to us anyway!

Of course, for anyone that has their eyes open in this country, that's always likely to be an issue. That said, it should never discourage citizens from challenging bad decisions.

n97 mini wrote:

Aside from Ioniq owners it'd pretty much punish everyone else.

lol Naturally, I couldn't possibly agree with that. A side point but Leaf owners are very much the majority stakeholders in terms of irish EV ownership right now. Of course, that may very well change - but you'd be penalising all of those people.

The greater point...

BEVs don't have any other option at times but to use the public infrastructure. That's NOT the case for hybrids. A hybrid owner is not going to be tearing their hair out or biting their nails off wondering if they will ever be able to charge or will they run out and end up stranded at the side of the road. The stakes are considerably higher for BEV's. Furthermore, BEV owners are showing a greater commitment to electric by going the whole hog and should be rewarded for it - not have to face penalisation.

n97 mini wrote:

And even at that Ioniq owners would be paying by the minute for a charge rate that's well below what the car can do.

I disagree entirely. You are going to disenfranchise owners of older BEV vehicles. That's totally inequitable. For many of us, we can only buy in at a particular price point. Alongside that policy being inequitable, it would render sales values of older Leafs much much lower - and could lead to perfectly good older Leafs being scrapped earlier than they ordinarily should - not exactly good for the environment or efficient use of an asset.

zilog_jones

I previously ignored this thread assuming it was some specific technical discussion about the Outlander, but seeing as I'm one of the few PHEV owners around here I'm a bit shocked by some of the comments here.

The real problem here was that someone was blocking a public charging point while not charging - it doesn't matter what car it was. It's inconsiderate and shouldn't be tolerated, but currently it's hard to really do anything about it and people can get away with it easily. I see BEV owners hogging SCPs (not charging) on a weekly basis - that's not acceptable either.

The public charging infrastructure is for all plug-in electric vehicles. There are around 450 PHEVs registered in Ireland vs. at least 1300 BEVs - out of that number of PHEVs there are less who have the cables to use public charging points, and less again who can actually use FCPs. To those who think PHEVs shouldn't use public chargers: If you think the infrastructure is so bad it can't handle such a small amount of extra cars, maybe you just shouldn't drive your BEV outside your range from home? This is just as ridiculous a statement.

PHEVs using FCPs is more debatable - it does seem like an inefficient use of resources. But many cannot use them, and their location often doesn't make sense for PHEVs - you want to make the most of EV mode driving at slow speeds, e.g. driving in town - where the SCPs are. TBH this is the first time I've heard of a PHEV cause trouble for a BEV owner - we still have much bigger problems elsewhere, e.g. ICEs parking in charging spaces, etc.

isnottheword wrote: »

I left a note under their wiper clarifying that they shouldn't tie up a fast charger from those of us that rely solely on the infrastructure in order to get where we need to go.

Hold on now: Your first post said your note was "dont clog up EV infrastructure with a PHEV" - that's a very different message (IMO: a totally unreasonable one) than saying they shouldn't use a FCP.

unkel wrote: »

A right eejit though that PHEV owner to plug in to save what, €0.25? Presuming plugging in didn't mean he avoided parking charges, he's either an imbecile or completely ignorant his savings are that miniscule...

Why are you comparing the cost of charging at home to using a public charger? The owner was obviously not at home - for all you know they could live on the other side of the country. If anything you should be comparing the cost of running the car in hybrid mode vs. EV mode, which would be much more significant than 25c.

Also: Anyone that thinks buying an Outlander PHEV to save money is an "eejit" - that thing costs at least €5-10k more than an ICE 4WD Outlander. It would take years to make that back on fuel/tax savings.

For me: I spent over €170 for a Type 1 to Type 2 cable. At the rate I use public chargers, it will take me years to break even on that. I'm certainly not using public chargers for free lecky!

At the end of the day, plug-in vehicles are not just about saving money - you're reducing reliance on imported fuel, reducing local pollution (incl. noise pollution), and hopefully getting more diesels off the road :cool:. Letting PHEVs using public chargers is only going to increase these (selfless) benefits.

homer911

Of the two SCPs in Dundrum Town Center, one is regularly blocked for extended periods of time (all day it seems) by an Outlander PHEV

isnottheword

zilog_jones wrote: »

The real problem here was that someone was blocking a public charging point while not charging - it doesn't matter what car it was. It's inconsiderate and shouldn't be tolerated, but currently it's hard to really do anything about it and people can get away with it easily. I see BEV owners hogging SCPs (not charging) on a weekly basis - that's not acceptable either.

Someone blocking a public CP is sickening - and yes, that's regardless of whether it's a PHEV, BEV or ICE that's doing the blocking.

zilog_jones wrote: »

The public charging infrastructure is for all plug-in electric vehicles.

I accept completely that this is the current policy / state of affairs - however, I disagree with it.

zilog_jones wrote: »

To those who think PHEVs shouldn't use public chargers: If you think the infrastructure is so bad it can't handle such a small amount of extra cars, maybe you just shouldn't drive your BEV outside your range from home? This is just as ridiculous a statement.

You may not like it but there's nothing ridiculous about the suggestion I have made. By and large, whilst the EV charging infrastructure is spread thin on the ground, it nevertheless works most of the time. People only report issues on the occasion that they happen. However - and this is a very important distinction - If you drive a BEV and you come up against this problem, you're simply screwed. You can't move. As a PHEV driver, you don't have any real appreciation of that issue ( I say that respectfully i.e. you won't know until you're in that situation just how ****ty that feels).
IF (and it's a questionable IF right now for a number of reasons) the network is utilised/managed correctly, for the most part, hardly anyone would have an issue (based on current EV numbers). PHEV usage of public infrastructure right now is not an efficient use of the network. I accept that you don't agree with my point of view on that - but that's my position.

zilog_jones wrote: »

PHEVs using FCPs is more debatable - it does seem like an inefficient use of resources.

Whatever about my suggestion that they should be excluded entirely (at least for the moment - perhaps when things even out, the network becomes more extensive - and just like PHEVs, BEVs can do the majority of their charging at home - then maybe they can be treated equally), a PHEV plugging in to such a precious resource as a FCP (there's damn all FCPs in the regional centres - we just have a primal 'spine' of a network at the moment) is crazy stuff. In this particular instance, the guy didn't even plug in to the SCP beside it (yes, it could have been in use but I actually doubt it - I rarely see it used).

zilog_jones wrote: »

TBH this is the first time I've heard of a PHEV cause trouble for a BEV owner

There are posts on the IEVOA FB page of instances - and in a couple of cases serial offenders....one in the North West - where a CP was being tied up all day long by a PHEV until a couple of BEV owners articulated what that meant for them. And now we have homer911 with his example above (ref. PHEV usage of a SCP in Dundrum).

zilog_jones wrote: »

we still have much bigger problems elsewhere, e.g. ICEs parking in charging spaces, etc.

I agree that there are issues to be tackled with regard to abuse when it comes to ICE & BEV blocking - but there are solutions that can be implemented - together with education / making it socially unacceptable. There's an SCP I use frequently over the last few months - I've only ever seen it being used by ONE other EV - ever. Locals used to park on the 2 spaces - but that doesn't seem to be happening now - of course, it could still happen but I've noticed a marked improvement.

zilog_jones wrote: »

Hold on now: Your first post said your note was "dont clog up EV infrastructure with a PHEV" - that's a very different message (IMO: a totally unreasonable one) than saying they shouldn't use a FCP.

There's no misunderstanding - that's exactly the point I wanted to make.

zilog_jones wrote: »

Why are you comparing the cost of charging at home to using a public charger? The owner was obviously not at home - for all you know they could live on the other side of the country. If anything you should be comparing the cost of running the car in hybrid mode vs. EV mode, which would be much more significant than 25c.

Also: Anyone that thinks buying an Outlander PHEV to save money is an "eejit" - that thing costs at least €5-10k more than an ICE 4WD Outlander. It would take years to make that back on fuel/tax savings.

For me: I spent over €170 for a Type 1 to Type 2 cable. At the rate I use public chargers, it will take me years to break even on that. I'm certainly not using public chargers for free lecky!

At the end of the day, plug-in vehicles are not just about saving money - you're reducing reliance on imported fuel, reducing local pollution (incl. noise pollution), and hopefully getting more diesels off the road . Letting PHEVs using public chargers is only going to increase these (selfless) benefits.

This all makes my point for me. It's inefficient for PHEVs right now to use the public EV network. You say it's not about saving money (which makes sense to me - but who knows what misguided conclusions some PHEV owners are coming to)? Great - then do your bit for the environment by charging at home - and allowing BEVs to charge on the public network. Every time you prevent a BEV from charging, you're NOT doing your bit for the environment. Secondly, you may be depriving someone of the ability to make it home! If you want to commit to greater environmental commitment, then dump the trickle charging PHEV and join the rest of us BEV owners.

liamog

At the Blanch FCP point today, when we arrived there was a Leaf straddling two of the three bays whilst using the fast charge. Parked in a normal bay and went to Nando's.

By the time we were done with dinner came out and found a 330e on the type 2 connector on the FCP, not sure why your one didn't plug into the SCP approximately 2m to the left.
At least the Blanch FCP doesn't block the CCS when the Fast AC is in use, so were able to get our charge.

zilog_jones

@isnottheword: Thanks, you make some good points. I like to think I'm not inconveniencing anyone when using an SCP, but I suppose I can't be certain that I'm not. Again I'm never going to be at an FCP because my car doesn't like them.

isnottheword wrote: »

If you want to commit to greater environmental commitment, then dump the trickle charging PHEV and join the rest of us BEV owners.

I probably would if there was something at the time that suited me, but there wasn't. 24 kWh Leaf (used) would have been my only realistic option, but the range suitability is borderline and I just don't like the Leaf as a car. I do like to think I encouraged a work colleague to upstage me and buy a BEV

n97 mini

Having been in the EV scene now for a while I think the fairest way is to bill is by the minute when charging at an FCP drops below a level that can be completed at an SCP. A Leaf sitting on an FCP charging at 2.9kw for example. The per minute billing should kick in once charging drops below 6.6kw.

If a PHEV can't charge at anywhere near the maximum rate then that model should be barred from using FCPs altogether.

KCross

n97 mini wrote: »

Having been in the EV scene now for a while I think the fairest way is to bill is by the minute when charging at an FCP drops below a level that can be completed at an SCP. A Leaf sitting on an FCP charging at 2.9kw for example. The per minute billing should kick in once charging drops below 6.6kw.

If a PHEV can't charge at anywhere near the maximum rate then that model should be barred from using FCPs altogether.

One gotcha though, the price your paying needs to be transparent so how would "I" know I'm now on the punitive rate?

A combination of time and per kWh would be simpler and everyone has a watch!

n97 mini

KCross wrote: »

One gotcha though, the price your paying needs to be transparent so how would "I" know I'm now on the punitive rate?

A simple software upgrade on the FCPs. They already show the rate, they just need to flash the screen or similar when the charge is about to drop below the minimum threshold.

Did a bit of googling and found this. Seems the Outlander is the biggest offender. In some markets it doesn't even come with a Chademo connector. I wonder why?!
https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/ecotricity-blames-6-charge-mitsubishi-outlander-phevs-clogging-network

Who here posted the pic on FB of the Ioniq charging at 67 Kw on the DC charger ? Start a new thread please, that is interesting.

Anyway, for now there is no one who has the right to confront anyone who charges their plug in at a FCP. This is the sole responsibility of the ESB.

As it stands now any PHEV owner has the right to use the network just like the rest of us BEV owners as irrating as that is that's the way it is.

Someone is going to get a severe kicking some night at a FCP !!!

goz83

It is interesting to see the diverse opinions here. I don't have a BEV, or a PHEV, but I want to buy one of each this year, getting rid of the old ICE cars if possible. Im thinking Leaf and Outlander.

If I drove an outlander phev 20 klms into town and I knew I only had 5-10 klms left in ev mode AND I was going to be getting a bite to eat, or doing a little bit of shopping, I wouldn't refuse myself a free charge to get home without the need to use the more expensive, dirtier fossil fuel engine. If there was a free CP, I would plug in.....even if there was a charge for this.

If a BEV owner is heavily reliant on the public system, they should not be a BEV owner imo. I can imagine how frustrating it would be to pull up to a blocked CP by a phev, but the phev owner has the same right to charge up as the BEV owner. The only difference is the phev owner doesn't need the CP as much as the BEV owner.

Leaving notes on someones car is petty if the car is charging. I'm waiting for the thread from someone who had their phev vandalised at a CP. I doubt that wait will be very long.

goz83

goz83 wrote: »

If a BEV owner is heavily reliant on the public system, they should not be a BEV owner imo.

And in my opinion, someone who wants to drive on electricity should have a proper EV with more than 40-50 Kms range !

isnottheword

goz83 wrote: »

If I drove an outlander phev 20 klms into town and I knew I only had 5-10 klms left in ev mode AND I was going to be getting a bite to eat, or doing a little bit of shopping, I wouldn't refuse myself a free charge to get home without the need to use the more expensive, dirtier fossil fuel engine. If there was a free CP, I would plug in.....even if there was a charge for this.

Yes, and as per the current system, you're perfectly entitled to do so. Perhaps the parking might be conveniently located also...who knows :-)

goz83 wrote: »

If a BEV owner is heavily reliant on the public system, they should not be a BEV owner imo.

'reliant' or 'heavily reliant' - either you need to avail of the public charging system or not (whether that's occasionally or regularly - either you need to access it or you don't). That then excludes the vast majority of BEV owners. I doubt this was the point of establishing the network!

goz83 wrote: »

I can imagine how frustrating it would be to pull up to a blocked CP by a phev, but the phev owner has the same right to charge up as the BEV owner. The only difference is the phev owner doesn't need the CP as much as the BEV owner.

I don't think you can imagine it until you experience it first hand. A PHEV is unlikely to get stuck without fuel.
The only difference you refer to is that the PHEV doesn't need to access the network at all!

goz83 wrote: »

Leaving notes on someones car is petty if the car is charging.

It wasn't charging - it was abandoned at a FCP - but still plugged in.

To be honest, the network was set up for EV's cars in the first place, not plug ins.

And it's the PHEV owner with their tiny batteries who will be more heavily reliant on the network , a lot more than the BEV owner if they want to continue on electric !

One exception, the I3 , the I3 has a much larger battery and can travel much further on electricity.

stesaurus

Phevs shouldn't have access to FCPs full stop. The batteries are way too small to actually use an FCP anywhere near its potential. It's ridiculous, selfish and I'd be letting the owner know all about it if they held me up. By all means use an scp.
As ownership increases then we need to see investment from owners of premises where destination charging is required. Supermarkets, shops, cinema, rail etc should have a huge number of charging spaces to entice Bev and Phev owners. Its in their interest to have us there spending money while charging.

Well see, there are loads of BEV owners taking up the chargers when they don't need to so you can't just blame the PHEV owners.

unkel

The battery in the latest Outlander PHEV is 12kWh. That's a higher capacity than I thought it had. But still, presuming an Outlander PHEV owner does not get free (or better) parking when plugged in, and plugging in is only about saving money (and feeling green), the savings are tiny

Let's say the battery is almost empty and charged until full, so say 11kWh used. The saving is €0.80 or so based on the cheapest night rates available. Honestly, go out of your way to find a parking space with charging, hook up your car, do your thing or wait, come back to the car and unplug it. For what, a saving of €0.80? That's mad, Ted.

And still the biggie, a PHEV owner doesn't need charging, he still has the ICE backup to get him / her to go wherever they want.

I'm about to get a full EV car myself as the main family car and I don't intend to regularly use FCPs unless I travel long distance or it comes with free parking (like in shopping centres where anyone else would also just charge because of the free parking, not to go further). Owning a PHEV or BEV, I would feel like queuing up for a free food parcel with a lot of other people who actually really need the food. It's morally wrong.

Outlander I believe has 9.8 usable Kwh.

unkel

zilog_jones wrote: »

Why are you comparing the cost of charging at home to using a public charger? The owner was obviously not at home - for all you know they could live on the other side of the country. If anything you should be comparing the cost of running the car in hybrid mode vs. EV mode, which would be much more significant than 25c.

Fair point. If 50km (?) then maybe 3 or 4 liters of diesel, so more like €4 or €5 saving. That is quite different, in fairness.

goz83

Deleted User wrote: »

And in my opinion, someone who wants to drive on electricity should have a proper EV with more than 40-50 Kms range !

Why should a person who drives only a few kilometres per day buy a proper EV BEV when a phev will do them for almost all of their journeys in electric mode? There is a hint of range snobbery there

As I said, I don't own either, but plan on having one of each, so I am not biased on either forms of tech.

isnottheword

goz83 wrote: »

Why should a person who drives only a few kilometres per day buy a proper EV BEV when a phev will do them for almost all of their journeys in electric mode? There is a hint of range snobbery there

It's far more pragmatic than snobbery (if anything, it could only be the inverse - PHEVs are far more expensive cars usually). It's to do with the logistics of getting charged and getting home - anxieties that in fairness don't often present themselves - but once is once too many. If plug-in hybrids are adding to that problem, then that's an issue. I don't believe the network was built with PHEVs in mind (despite the fact that they can currently access the network).
Should that person you talk about not go with a BEV then if thats all the do most of the time? I do 80 mile round trip monday-friday on a 24kW Leaf.

goz83

isnottheword wrote: »

It's far more pragmatic than snobbery (if anything, it could only be the inverse - PHEVs are far more expensive cars usually). It's to do with the logistics of getting charged and getting home - anxieties that in fairness don't often present themselves - but once is once too many. If plug-in hybrids are adding to that problem, then that's an issue. I don't believe the network was built with PHEVs in mind (despite the fact that they can currently access the network).
Should that person you talk about not go with a BEV then if thats all the do most of the time? I do 80 mile round trip monday-friday on a 24kW Leaf.

The person doing the small mileage is me. Very occasionally, a longer distance would be needed and a phev might be preferred in such a circumstance. For me, having the outlander is the best of both worlds, because I want to use an EV and I also need the higher seating position (won't get into that here). I wouldn't plugin to a CP if I had enough power to get me to my home CP. As I said in my first post, I would use a CP if the charge was low and I was going to be killing time anyway. The simple idea is that I am aiming to use as much electricity over fossil fuel as I can. And also, using the free electric might save me a few euro over the petrol engine kicking in.

I wouldn't have a problem with someone unplugging me if they needed a charge either.

zilog_jones

Going by your previous description of going into town to eat/shop - a standard charging point (SCP) would be much more suited to this situation, not a fast charger (FCP) which is what started this discussion. It's usually SCPs that are located in town centres anyway (street parking, etc.).

goz83

zilog_jones wrote: »

Going by your previous description of going into town to eat/shop - a standard charging point (SCP) would be much more suited to this situation, not a fast charger (FCP) which is what started this discussion. It's usually SCPs that are located in town centres anyway (street parking, etc.).

Agreed. I wasn't talking about and nor would I block a fast charging point unless I was tight enough to sit in the car and wait in case someone else needed to use it. An SCP would be good enough if available. The free parking is covered with my disabled driver permit.

It's not all about fast charging, I find the 6.6 Kw charger in the leaf highly practical and saves me a lot of time and hassle at a fast charger when I take longer trips. Granted I don't need it often but mighty glad of it when I do.

isnottheword

Another recent example of PHEV abuse - as posted today on the IEVOA Facebook Page;


"My wife went to charge our Leaf today just before lunch. This guy was sitting in his car and had been charging for 28 mins when she got there so she sat and waited, figuring he'd be finished up soon. 30 mins later he was still charging. At 58 mins she knocked on the window and asked politely would he be finished soon, he said 'no, in about another 20 mins', she replied that usually with the fast chargers people charge to 80% if there's another EV waiting, as it takes so long to get to 100%. He shrugged and said he was charging for another 20 mins - basically saying 'tough'. When she asked why he didn't tell her that when she pulled in he replied 'I didn't see you'. Can't say I've come across this before, most EV drivers we've met at the chargers have been very courteous, also have never seen someone charge this long - 1 hour, 20 mins! Curious to know what others think of this? She had no other option but to drive away as she had our toddler with her. Thought we might as well name and shame him here, watch out - he may be at a charger near you soon..."

Car is believed to have been a BMW 225xe.
Location : FCP at Topaz, Clonshaugh.

Not a lot you can do about it but it's sad to think a person paying so much for a car could care less about a euro's worth of electricity or less !

So this is why I say, buy the largest battery you can afford , time away from FCP's is time well spent and why I love the 6.6 Kw charger so much.

KCross

isnottheword wrote: »

Another recent example of PHEV abuse - as posted today on the IEVOA Facebook Page;


"My wife went to charge our Leaf today just before lunch. This guy was sitting in his car and had been charging for 28 mins when she got there so she sat and waited, figuring he'd be finished up soon. 30 mins later he was still charging. At 58 mins she knocked on the window and asked politely would he be finished soon, he said 'no, in about another 20 mins', she replied that usually with the fast chargers people charge to 80% if there's another EV waiting, as it takes so long to get to 100%. He shrugged and said he was charging for another 20 mins - basically saying 'tough'. When she asked why he didn't tell her that when she pulled in he replied 'I didn't see you'. Can't say I've come across this before, most EV drivers we've met at the chargers have been very courteous, also have never seen someone charge this long - 1 hour, 20 mins! Curious to know what others think of this? She had no other option but to drive away as she had our toddler with her. Thought we might as well name and shame him here, watch out - he may be at a charger near you soon..."

Car is believed to have been a BMW 225xe.
Location : FCP at Topaz, Clonshaugh.

But was the BMW using the Chademo? Could she not have charged at the same time as he was charging on the AC side.... dual charging is supported.

Am I missing something here?

isnottheword

KCross wrote: »

But was the BMW using the Chademo? Could she not have charged at the same time as he was charging on the AC side.... dual charging is supported.

Am I missing something here?

I don't have first hand details other than what I copied and pasted but he was using Chademo - or the FCP in any event. I'm not familiar with that particular chargepoint - so not sure what else is possible.

KCross

isnottheword wrote: »

I don't have first hand details other than what I copied and pasted but he was using Chademo - or the FCP in any event. I'm not familiar with that particular chargepoint - so not sure what else is possible.

AFAIK the only PHEV that uses DC is the Outlander. All the others use the AC side of the charger so there is no reason why she couldnt have used the DC side at the same time.

Unless this BMW is using DC.

isnottheword

KCross wrote: »

AFAIK the only PHEV that uses DC is the Outlander. All the others use the AC side of the charger so there is no reason why she couldnt have used the DC side at the same time.

Unless this BMW is using DC.

Couldn't say - but check it out on the IEVOA FB page - there's a long commentary afterwards from other contributors. I don't know the answer to what you've suggested but no other contributor has come to that conclusion....

KCross

I'm 99% sure the 225xe uses AC only and that FCP has AC and DC so she could have charged at the same time. Almost certain of it.

She should have at least tried it.