Please explain this to me. Chassis number

Johnson_76

This evening I took a car I inherited last year from my late father in law for its NCT.

I knew it wouldn't pass but I wanted to get a list of faults.

Anyway, I couldnt help notice the car never moved in the test centre, 3 members of NCT staff had torches over the engine and were scraping it and taking pictures. I was trying to do my boys maths homework with him while waiting but this was making me uber paranoid when they had their phones out. Other customers began commenting too.

Anyway a few minutes later they asked who owned the bmw. I owned up to it, and they proceeded to tell me the chassis number did not match. I know nothing about cars, they showed me how a bit of a sony dvd player the plastic bit had been glued over the original chassis number and engraved. I thought I was going to be arrested.

They were very nice and refunded me but said they could not test it.


Car story : my father in law bought this from his mechanic in Crumlin ten years ago. Low mileage 1998 D Bmw 3 series. Whenever I heard him mention the mechanic he seemed dodge to me.

Anyway, how has this passed the NCT all these years, and why would someone want to change the chassis number, what benefit would it be ? How come it took an nct centre in rural ireland to notice this, and all the time in Greenhills nct it wasn't?

I now have forms I need to take to a psg Garda to get him to check and sign off. This will be difficult as it is not NCT'ed and I may get 3 points for going to get him to fill out the form.

Can someone please explain why the chassis number is changed and has anyone experienced it.

colm_mcm

Car is probably stolen.

Johnson_76

colm_mcm wrote: »

Car is probably stolen.

How do they get a log book then?

colm_mcm

They clone a written off car. Use it's chassis number and stick the old plates on.
Your tax book is from a different car.

tnegun

The fake chassis no was most likely from a totalled car

Johnson_76

Fkn in-laws excuse the French.

How come this was not noticed in all the years being nct'ed, ? Where do I stand now ? Willthe car be taken from me... seriously I knew it wasn't much but too good to be true

colm_mcm

Just takes someone who knows his BMWs to spot that the font is slightly off, or someone who is just more observant than most.

Eric Cartman

I don't know if theres going to be a way to redeem this, the only saving grace is that you could replace that car now with the slightly newer e46 model for under 1000 euro. It's still a kick in the face but it's not mental money to change for a legitimate car. Would be far worse if you were stuck with a car you paid 15+ grand for a few months ago, your father got 10 years out of it so whoever owned it originally has been long compensated by insurance and your dad got a fair time out of the car.

Johnson_76

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I don't know if theres going to be a way to redeem this, the only saving grace is that you could replace that car now with the slightly newer e46 model for under 1000 euro. It's still a kick in the face but it's not mental money to change for a legitimate car. Would be far worse if you were stuck with a car you paid 15+ grand for a few months ago, your father got 10 years out of it so whoever owned it originally has been long compensated by insurance and your dad got a fair time out of the car.

Thank you. Do you think the car will be taken from me ? .

My mother in law still uses this mechanic in Crumlin, I may let her know wtf just happened. Or maybe not...

Eric Cartman

Johnson_76 wrote: »

Thank you. Do you think the car will be taken from me ? .

My mother in law still uses this mechanic in Crumlin, I may let her know wtf just happened. Or maybe not...

Its likely stolen, (although its possible the clone was done on a uk import to avoid VRT) now I doubt a garda is going to come knocking round your door , but considering it's stolen property, I would probably replace the car then inform the gardai of what has occured, they'll investigate and it might land the mechanic in the hot water he may deserve. I would inform your mother and stop using the mechanics services until such time as that it can be verified whether he knew or not, it is possible that the mechanic was also duped, but you said he seemed dodgy anyway, lots of good ones about.

Atlantic Dawn

Likely outcome will be if the insurer paid out to a stolen car they will now be the legal owners of your car and can take it back.

Johnson_76

Okay, thanks for all the replies. Never a dull moment.

mgbgt1978

It may not be a stolen car. It's just as plausible that it's a UK car which was given an Irish Identity to avoid VRT (as already mentioned by Mr. Eric Cartman).
Doesn't help the Op....but could be the reason for the fake VIN. And is less of a worry for the OP.

colm_mcm

They still aren't the registered owner of the car they're driving either way.

elperello

It might not have been the mechanic who did the deed.
It wasn't noticed at all those NCT's so he might not have noticed it.
Maybe he just got the car legitimately and sold it on.

Voodoomelon

The biggest worry of all I would imagine, is not that the car is not yours, its that you are very unlikely to be insured on it. Nor anyone else who sits behind the wheel. Fair play to the NCT centre for spotting it.

Wibbs

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Fair play to the NCT centre for spotting it.

Though it begs the very obvious question; how did it pass ten years of NCT inspections up to now? Especially with such an obvious bodge involving a piece of plastic glued over the original number. If you do get any extra hassle I'd be asking that question.

Good spot on the insurance VM.

Brian?

You could bring it to a different NCT centre and hope to get someone less observant.





That was a joke. You need to get advice from the Gardaí. Is suspect the car is stolen too.

cml387

There was a recent case of NCT employees accepting bribes to pass cars in Dublin (part of an RTE sting as I remember).

TallGlass

I'd inform the Gardaí, (why the NCT center, didn't just seize the car, not saying your a bad person, but your not insured now at this stage.), count your losses and get a new car, this ain't worth the hassle!

Peregrinus

Johnson_76 wrote: »

. . This will be difficult as it is not NCT'ed and I may get 3 points for going to get him to fill out the form.

Don't go up in this car!

In fact, don't drive this car at all; take it off the road. It's probably uninsured and, until all this is sorted out, uninsurable.

I hate to break this to you but, if this is your only car, you probably don't have a car. But, as others have said, at least you didn't pay for it.

MarkR

TallGlass wrote: »

I'd inform the Gardaí, (why the NCT center, didn't just seize the car, not saying your a bad person, but your not insured now at this stage.), count your losses and get a new car, this ain't worth the hassle!

They don't have the power to seize a vehicle, even a dangerous one.

Johnson_76

They were very polite about the whole situation. I need to speak to a certain guard who deals with these queries.

Harcrid

Any chance you can put up a picture of the modified number? Curious to see how it was done and if it should have been easily spotted. You can blank out part of the actual chassis number in the pic if you dont want to share it.

dar83

I think the big unanswered question here is, how is doing on playing DVD's?!?


All joking aside, that's a stinger and hopefully you're not left completely without transport now until you manage to get this mess all sorted.

Brian?

Brian? wrote: »

You could bring it to a different NCT centre and hope to get someone less observant.

First thing that entered my head

Johnson_76

Harcrid wrote: »

Any chance you can put up a picture of the modified number? Curious to see how it was done and if it should have been easily spotted. You can blank out part of the actual chassis number in the pic if you dont want to share it.

I wouldhave have no problem but the NCT guys kept it after they showed it to me.

It was black plastic with SONY written on one side and the fake numbers engraved on the other side.

The NCT guys also showed me a random badge that was drilled onto the left side on the exterior engine which they say would have blocked off another chassis number spot.

colm_mcm

Was it the visible vin on the windscreen?

Buffman

Johnson_76 wrote: »

Can someone please explain why the chassis number is changed and has anyone experienced it.

Plenty of illegitimate reasons as detailed in other posts. Just google 'car ringing' to find out more.

It's rarely done for legitimate reasons, the only time I've heard of it being done legally is where an unidentifiable vehicle (with no existing VIN/Chassis #) comes legally into someones possession and revenue issue a 'new' VIN as part of the registration process. That doesn't sound like the case here based on what you've said.

Johnson_76 wrote: »

I now have forms I need to take to a psg Garda to get him to check and sign off. This will be difficult as it is not NCT'ed and I may get 3 points for going to get him to fill out the form.

Johnson_76 wrote: »

I need to speak to a certain guard who deals with these queries.

I'm guessing you mean a Garda PSV inspector. No, I wouldn't bother driving it in, as it'll probably be seized and you'll be stuck for transport home.

Do you have the 'original' VIN from under the 'plastic' one. There are lots of other VIN locations on the E36 if you want to double check. Based on what you've said, I'd contact the PSV Garda or the Garda Stolen Motor Vehicle Investigation Unit. They'll be able to advise the next course of action from here. Your local station should be able to put you in touch with either.

On the bright side, at least you aren't down a large amount of money. There have been plenty of horror stories in the past where both the car and large sums of money are lost.

Xpro wrote: »

We were in a similar situation 3 years ago. Purchased a BMW from UK, all paperwork matching,etc only after car went for a service the diagnostic machine read out a different vin. All went downhill afterwards.. Gardai notified, car taken back to compound, blah blah blah, never heard a word after, nor any money was ever recovered.

Insurance was void as the car was cloned, they refused to pay. We chased it for a while but no joy.

It was a very good job done, I never seen anything like it, window, chassis plate, stickers, all re-done to a OE standard. The only thing they left out was the ecu vin, and thats how we discovered the theft.

Also, buyers have ended up in court for similar:

A NEWCASTLE West man charged with the unauthorised taking of a vehicle that he had bought on Done Deal was found not guilty at Kilmallock Court.

Notch000

Break it for parts like a real criminal , or stick it on done deal, as a slaaaab car with no log book

Johnson_76

Yea its an eye opener alright. Fair play to the lads in the NCT. And to answer someones question yes it was the serial at the dashboard which was glued over and noticed by the NCT.

Johnson_76

Notch000 wrote: »

Break it for parts like a real criminal , or stick it on done deal, as a slaaaab car with no log book

I had no other choice but to use it today, and low and behold there was a checkpoint, I had a story ready to blurt out and the psg documents and was just waved on..

Buffman

Johnson_76 wrote: »

And to answer someones question yes it was the serial at the dashboard which was glued over and noticed by the NCT.

Ok, if you want to confirm one way or another yourself, I'd recommend finding the 'stamped in' VIN and comparing it to your registration certificate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CY4u93SSBa8

Voodoomelon

Johnson_76 wrote: »

I had no other choice but to use it today, and low and behold there was a checkpoint, I had a story ready to blurt out and the psg documents and was just waved on..

There's always another choice between driving a potentially stolen and uninsured car and not. Extremely foolish and wreckless.

Isambard

it is definitely uninsured because it isn't the car that the policy will be on, it's a totally different car to what the VLC shows.

You couldn't just swap your reg number to another car and expect it to be insured could you?

Now that the problem is known, there is no excuse and I suppose it's possible the NCT will have informed the Gards

robtri

Johnson_76 wrote: »

I had no other choice but to use it today, and low and behold there was a checkpoint, I had a story ready to blurt out and the psg documents and was just waved on..

u always have a choice....
what was so important that needed your car and that nothing else would work

Peregrinus

Johnson_76 wrote: »

I had no other choice but to use it today . . .

If God had intended you to drive this car today, He would not have created taxis or buses or bicycles or legs or friends with other cars.

Johnson_76

You can't beat a lesson in morality from complete strangers.

9935452

Johnson_76 wrote: »

You can't beat a lesson in morality from complete strangers.

Thats what happens when you go onto a public forum looking for advice from these same strangers.

Seriously though park the car up and get the guards involved.
Even do as mentioned above , get someone to connect to the ecu and read the chassis number from it if possible
If it is cloned you have no insurance whatsoever,
The car isnt the car you are insured on, your driving of other cars probably doesnt cover you as you dont have permission of the owner.
car isnt nctd or taxed even when you think about it .

No insurance /tax/nct and driving a stolen cloned car

Wibbs

Johnson_76 wrote: »

You can't beat a lesson in morality from complete strangers.

I agree. I've previously noted that perusing threads with any "morality" involved it's hardly a surprise that in the past the church found so many crawthumpers eager to display their sanctimony and virtue.

That said and the sanctimony aside, you will be utterly fooked if you are discovered driving this car. As 9935452 said you'll be knowingly driving a stolen car with no tax or insurance. Few enough legal scenarios in motoring are worse or have worse penalties. Ignore the publicly pious, but for your own sake lock it up and walk away and don't drive it.

Johnson_76

I do not know it was stolen, no one has confirmed that to me. So less of the fear please.

Anyway here are some pics, this was glued over the chassis below the dashboard.

Isambard

whether or not it is stolen is not relevant. It's not legally entitled to be on the road and not insured, you are taking a huge risk driving it, especially if the Gard's have been notified, which they may have been

brembo26

Johnson_76 wrote: »

I do not know it was stolen, no one has confirmed that to me. So less of the fear please.

Anyway here are some pics, this was glued over the chassis below the dashboard.

That was a terrible effort by whoever made it How nobody noticed it for 10 years I cant understand :eek:

Wibbs

brembo26 wrote: »

How nobody noticed it for 10 years I cant understand :eek:

That was my first thought. Not that the NCT found it recently, but how did they miss it for ten years? I thought checking the chassis number was one of their tasks? The mechanic not seeing it is more worrying TBH.

Johnson_76

Wibbs wrote: »

That was my first thought. Not that the NCT found it recently, but how did they miss it for ten years? I thought checking the chassis number was one of their tasks? The mechanic not seeing it is more worrying TBH.

I would say the mechanic was in on it. Logbook says it was first registered in ireland 2001 so must have been an import maybe this has something to do with it ?

Buffman

Johnson_76 wrote: »

Logbook says it was first registered in ireland 2001 so must have been an import maybe this has something to do with it ?

Is there a previous UK registration number in the logbook? It should be in section (J.4) between previous owners and engine CC.

Johnson_76

Buffman wrote: »

Is there a previous UK registration number in the logbook? It should be in section (J.4) between previous owners and engine CC.

Yes there is ! What does that mean ? Thanks

Buffman

Johnson_76 wrote: »

Yes there is ! What does that mean ? Thanks

That means that the car on the logbook was imported from the UK. The question is if that's the car you have in your driveway. One way to possibly find out is do a 'Cartell' type check on the UK number and see what VIN/chassis number it relates to, and compare to the 'stamped in' number on yours.

Am I correct in thinking that below that plastic VIN, there was another different VIN? Does that VIN match the 'stamped in' VIN?

EDIT: Just to add, there's also a handy free UK DVLA check which can give you basic information, pop that UK reg in and see what you get.

https://vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk/

Johnson_76

Thanks for the info. The uk vin (j.4) does not match the chassis number on the car itself.

In fact there is only a difference of two digits between the plastic "sony" number and the correct number.

Edit # I keyed in details to uk site and it gives me cad details not much else, untaxed since 2002

Buffman

Johnson_76 wrote: »

The uk vin (j.4) does not match the chassis number on the car itself.

That J4 number is the UK 'number plate' number, should be a letter, 3 numbers and 3 letters. Or mabe I'm taking you up wrong, did you do the cartell check? EDIT: Never mind, I see your edit above.

The VIN (vehicle identification number) is also the Chassis number.

Johnson_76 wrote: »

In fact there is only a difference of two digits between the plastic "sony" number and the correct number.

That's even stranger, the chances of finding a car with a VIN that close to ring are very slim.

Johnson_76 wrote: »

I keyed in details to uk site and it gives me cad details not much else, untaxed since 2002

I'm guessing the colour and engine details etc matched up?
Ye, to confirm the VIN relating to that UK number plate, you'll have to pay for a 'cartell' type check.

Johnson_76

Buffman wrote: »

That J4 number is the UK 'number plate' number, should be a letter, 3 numbers and 3 letters. Or mabe I'm taking you up wrong, did you do the cartell check? EDIT: Never mind, I see your edit above.

The VIN (vehicle identification number) is also the Chassis number.




That's even stranger, the chances of finding a car with a VIN that close to ring are very slim.

Okay, I have not done a cartell, it costs 25 euro. I am mega confused but will get to the bottom some how..