Job offer withdrawn due to sick leave???

LegacyUser

Hi! I had a very difficult time in work - off on leave for two months with bullying. Now new employer has withdrawn job offer as old employer sent him my sick leave with reference. I sent a letter from my old employer asking me not to leave and stating that he hoped I would reconsider my decision. Any advice would be really welcome??

Neyite

Mod:

You might get better advice over in Work & Jobs so I've moved it over there now. You can still post anonymously.

the_syco

Redrose2 wrote: »

Now new employer has withdrawn job offer as old employer sent him my sick leave with reference.

Get a reference from someone else? If you were on sick leave, and your ex-employer said that you were on sick leave, I don't think there's much you can do?

silent_spark

If the amount and frequency of sick leave you took at your most recent employment was unusual for you, show this through other references, and explain that it was due to extenuating circumstances (if it was). Did you flag the leave with the prospective employer before they checked references? If they weren't aware of it, I imagine they would have been unimpressed at finding out that way. From their perspective it could look like you have a pattern of taking a lot of sick leave, and I could see why they wouldn't want to take you on.

Stealthfins

the_syco wrote:

Get a reference from someone else? If you were on sick leave, and your ex-employer said that you were on sick leave, I don't think there's much you can do?

More discrimination again, an employer isn't meant to give a negative reference.

I'd go to a solicitor as soon as possible.

ScouseMouse

Stealthfins wrote: »

More discrimination again, an employer isn't meant to give a negative reference.

I'd go to a solicitor as soon as possible.

What discrimination? Are you reading the same thread I am? How can factual information about absences from work be classed as discrimination.

Even if the old employer had said the OP was a thief, as long as it can be verified and proved, no amount of solicitors is going to change that or help

Corruptedmorals

They can give a negative reference, they just need to be very careful that they can back it up. I wouldn't say they gave a negative one in this instance, merely stated facts about the sick leave. Which would be very easy for them to back up.

goat2

I have had references in the past,
An employer must tell the truth of the benefit and otherwise of a prospective employee, this is what references are for,

davo10

Stealthfins wrote: »

More discrimination again, an employer isn't meant to give a negative reference.

I'd go to a solicitor as soon as possible.

Discrimination on which of the nine grounds?

Employers must give a truthful reference and would be best advised to be able to back up any negative opinions with evidence. Days absent from work is very easy to confirm.

Incidentally, I got a recent request from the HSE to provide a reference for a former employee who put me down as a reference provider, there was a question about days absent from work in previous 6 months excluding annual leave so it is perfectly legit for a prospective employer to ask.

Yourself isit

Is that not a data breach? Privacy breach?

Bicycle

Check out the legislation on bullying in the workplace. An employer has a vicarious liability of care to an employee in the case of bullying. In other words, an employer is responsible if their employee is being bullied.

If the employer was aware that your sick leave was directly as a result of bullying in their workplace, and if they sent you a letter asking you to stay, my PERSONAL impression would be that the inclusion of details of sick-leave was another form of bullying to try and get you to stay.

The area is complex - bullying can be used as a basis for constructive dismissal. So you should seek legal advice from an experienced employment legal practice.

But there is some good information here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/equality_in_work/bullying_in_the_workplace.html

davo10

Bicycle wrote: »

Check out the legislation on bullying in the workplace. An employer has a vicarious liability of care to an employee in the case of bullying. In other words, an employer is responsible if their employee is being bullied.

If the employer was aware that your sick leave was directly as a result of bullying in their workplace, and if they sent you a letter asking you to stay, my PERSONAL impression would be that the inclusion of details of sick-leave was another form of bullying to try and get you to stay.

The area is complex - bullying can be used as a basis for constructive dismissal. So you should seek legal advice from an experienced employment legal practice.

But there is some good information here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/equality_in_work/bullying_in_the_workplace.html

I agree with everything you said, right up until you said that confirming absence was a form of bullying. Assuming that the amount of absent days is correct and the reference is truthful, how can the truth be a form of bullying?

Op, in relation to the question of data protection, I assume your employer did not pass on details of your illness, only the number of days you were absent from work?

jimd2

Taking the OP's version of events to be correct this was very bad form on the employer's part. I have been in companies where management were difficult to work with but none resorted to this. I saw a case where a colleague (that was really needed) was out for a couple of months due to stress and got a job just after they returned. This company would have done what suited themselves in most instances but even then there was no effort or attempt to scupper the new job by listing absence due in this case to stress. If the absence was due to bullying (which the employer obviously didn't control) then the actions of the employer are even more despicable.

It would be great to name and shame the employer here but I know that's not possible.

nuckeythompson

I would honestly not employ the op based on the sick leave. The impression being given is that they are hiring a problem employee. That's why they didn't hire you. Might be time to be creative with your cv or have a chat with your old boss. New job will see through the lines and think you might be taking them to court for bullying

Stheno

The new employer might have asked how many sick days the op had

Stealthfins

ScouseMouse wrote:

What discrimination? Are you reading the same thread I am? How can factual information about absences from work be classed as discrimination.

ScouseMouse wrote:

Even if the old employer had said the OP was a thief, as long as it can be verified and proved, no amount of solicitors is going to change that or help

That's what you new age employees are indoctrinated with.

There's a lot of employment legislation being broken here in this country since the early 00's

I see a lot of Post's here about people being ridden blindly by employers without the decency of a reach around.

If you happen to check into the labor court you'll see employees getting rewards left right and centre.

Bullying is much easier to prove than disprove.

The onus is on the bully to prove they're not bullying.

Stealthfins

davo10 wrote:

Incidentally, I got a recent request from the HSE to provide a reference for a former employee who put me down as a reference provider, there was a question about days absent from work in previous 6 months excluding annual leave so it is perfectly legit for a prospective employer to ask.

The HSE will be delighted to tell you the benefits of sick pay compared to the private sector.

Then you'll be secure for the rest of your working life.

Lucky you getting a Job with the HSE.

Nice one davo

davo10

Stealthfins wrote: »

The HSE will be delighted to tell you the benefits of sick pay compared to the private sector.

Then you'll be secure for the rest of your working life.

Lucky you getting a Job with the HSE.

Nice one davo

You'll have to go back and read the post again, I'm an employer, I received a request for a reference for a former (excellent) employee from the HSE, in other words, the HSE were hiring her. One of the questions on the reference form related to days absent from work excluding holiday leave in the previous six months. i.e, the public service request details of absences when looking for references so how could this be considered discrimination?

I would imagine it is very difficult to get a good reference from an employer who you have accused of bullying. By giving you a good reference they are confirming you are a good employee which makes it very difficult for them to defend the accusation by saying there were issues with your work/behaviour. I suspect in a lot of cases there is some leeway to negotiate a good reference in return for leaving quietly. I'm not saying this is the right thing to do, but it can be the practical thing to do. A lot of prospective employers make a discreet phone call to previous employers and can draw their own conclusions to the tone, brevity of answers to pertinent questions. The simplest being "would you employ her/him again?"

Rightwing

nuckeythompson wrote: »

I would honestly not employ the op based on the sick leave. The impression being given is that they are hiring a problem employee. That's why they didn't hire you. Might be time to be creative with your cv or have a chat with your old boss. New job will see through the lines and think you might be taking them to court for bullying

Probably bad news alright.

OP - I'd recommend applying to the Public Sector. They may not care.

_Brian

Stealthfins wrote: »

More discrimination again, an employer isn't meant to give a negative reference.

I'd go to a solicitor as soon as possible.

This is so wrong
As long as it can be substantiated in the case of a complaint it's ok to include on a reference, this has stopped many employers from being truthful but not discrimination nor illegal.

Irish_Elect_Eng

Stealthfins wrote: »

That's what you new age employees are indoctrinated with.

There's a lot of employment legislation being broken here in this country since the early 00's

I see a lot of Post's here about people being ridden blindly by employers without the decency of a reach around.

If you happen to check into the labor court you'll see employees getting rewards left right and centre.

Bullying is much easier to prove than disprove.

The onus is on the bully to prove they're not bullying.

To be honest the bullying employee probably did not even see the reference request.

I work with a large MNC and reference requests are processed by HR. The reference is always a simple form letter indicating time worked, date A to Date be in role C, absences, disciplinary status and termination, voluntary or involuntary may be specified if requested by the person seeking the reference. The managers are not consulted and are precluded from offering personal references, because Irish people are second only to the USA in bringing employers to court.

So no more nice references, even for star employees.

the_syco

Stealthfins wrote: »

More discrimination again, an employer isn't meant to give a negative reference.

I'd go to a solicitor as soon as possible.

Bullsheesh. An employer can't give a false reference. But as the OP was sick, thus it wasn't false.

Kristopherus

the_syco wrote: »

Bullsheesh. An employer can't give a false reference. But as the OP was sick, thus it wasn't false.

Sick due to bullying, which is an entirely different matter.

nuckeythompson

Kristopherus wrote:

Sick due to bullying, which is an entirely different matter.

Alleged bullying

gingergemima

Redrose2 wrote: »

Hi! I had a very difficult time in work - off on leave for two months with bullying. Now new employer has withdrawn job offer as old employer sent him my sick leave with reference. I sent a letter from my old employer asking me not to leave and stating that he hoped I would reconsider my decision. Any advice would be really welcome??

No way should your sick leave have been disclosed....Total breach of your privacy....Go to a solicitor immediately.

nuckeythompson

gingergemima wrote:

No way should your sick leave have been disclosed....Total breach of your privacy....Go to a solicitor immediately.

Rubbish, attendance is a standard question.
Solicitor is always a very last resort. If you are known or have details published relating to a legal case against an employer you will find it very difficult to get future employment

livedadream

four questions:
what dates did they work there- to check against CV
why did they leave/are leaving- does the reason match what they told you in interview
would you hire them again- simple yes or no will do.
any attendance/disciplinary issues- factual and and be proven.
Thanks.
this is not discrimination, its not bullying, its your manager being honest BUT they are bieng an asshole sending out company data from your doctor is a breach of Data protection as it was a note written from your GP with your permission to your employer, shouldnt have been done, however it was very misguided of you to put your current employer down as a reference if you are out on sick leave. next time you will know better.
explain if they ask you for reference that you are leaving due to an issue and would like to give your last two employers.

_Brian

I just love the way in Ireland that people think certified sick leave is some sort of untouchable protection against everything possible.

Certified sick leave is an absence that has been explained by a gp. It is still absence from your job which has a knock on effect on the employer, for some employers the effect is small but for many all absence is a big deal.

Absence from work diminishes your contribution to the job, lack of contribution is a performance management issue and as such can bring negative consequences and disciplinary action. Ongoing absence through illness can result in termination as you are unfit to complete the work for which you were hired to do - there is no obligation on the employer to facilitate you with alternative work (although that would be best practice if it's possible)

There is no legal bar on reporting absence numbers on a reference as in "paddy was absent for 15 days, 10 certified in the last 12 months" this is factual information which can be verified and is relavent to a reference request. What cannot be reported is why the certified absence occurred the specifics of the illness is private information.

the_syco

Kristopherus wrote: »

Sick due to bullying, which is an entirely different matter.

If the employer gives false reason for them being sick, sure, but if employer say that they worked from X to Y, but sick for the past two months and said nothing more, the employer didn't do anything wrong.

livedadream wrote: »

BUT they are bieng an asshole sending out company data from your doctor is a breach of Data protection as it was a note written from your GP with your permission to your employer, shouldnt have been done

Depends on what info the employer gave. If the new employer asked the current employer were they still working there, the current employer could say that they were on sick leave for the past two months. Without any further information, the current employer has done nothing wrong. If the person is still on sick leave, they may not be able to resume work within a short timeframe.

=-=

TBH, the OP should have used a reference from someone that they got on with. Using the boss as a reference for a new job whilst being on sick leave would leave a bad taste in the current employers mouth, as the OP is essentially saying that they're okay to work, just not with the current employer. A very bad taste if the OP is receiving any money from the company whilst they're on sick leave, as the current employer may think he's being treated as the fool.

livedadream

the_syco wrote: »

Depends on what info the employer gave. If the new employer asked the current employer were they still working there, the current employer could say that they were on sick leave for the past two months. Without any further information, the current employer has done nothing wrong. If the person is still on sick leave, they may not be able to resume work within a short timeframe.

.

OP said they sent her sick leave details with the reference, itsone thing saying has been out x amount of days and sending (from my reading of it anyway).. certs the doctor has supplied along with the reference

seamus

livedadream wrote: »

OP said they sent her sick leave details with the reference, itsone thing saying has been out x amount of days and sending (from my reading of it anyway).. certs the doctor has supplied along with the reference

Considering the OP hasn't responded, I think it would a bit much to make any assumptions of that gravity.
The most likely situation is that the old employer gave details about the amount of sick leave taken, but not dates or certificates. "He was out sick for two months due to stress" or similar. That would be enough to make many employers run a mile.

Stealthfins

nuckeythompson wrote:

Rubbish, attendance is a standard question. Solicitor is always a very last resort. If you are known or have details published relating to a legal case against an employer you will find it very difficult to get future employment

If I was a solicitor I'd clean up on boards.ie

jimmycrackcorm

nuckeythompson wrote: »

Rubbish, attendance is a standard question.
Solicitor is always a very last resort. If you are known or have details published relating to a legal case against an employer you will find it very difficult to get future employment

I've been to some management courses run by IBEC and some of the examples they gave from cases in the labour court were very surprising. A good solicitor could easily present a case where the previous employer specifying the sick leave taken was part of a pattern of bullying that the OP experienced.

Remember, the previous employer was under no obligation to share that information but chose to.

nuckeythompson

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

I've been to some management courses run by IBEC and some of the examples they gave from cases in the labour court were very surprising. A good solicitor could easily present a case where the previous employer specifying the sick leave taken was part of a pattern of bullying that the OP experienced.

Well and good, I know so many people got ****ed over by employers. They have the boss bang to rights!
I was bullied out of a good job once. Went to a very decent solicitor who I know well for legal advice.
Mr T.G. gave me the best legal advice ever. He told me to orchestrate my perfect exit and own the situation.
His words not mine, ' do you think I'd take on someone who sued their ex employer' ? **** no
Too many people here run to a solicitor and then they are on Google .
I just take it as experience!

CruelCoin

Bicycle wrote: »

The area is complex - bullying can be used as a basis for constructive dismissal. So you should seek legal advice from an experienced employment legal practice.

But there is some good information here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/equality_in_work/bullying_in_the_workplace.html

Talk about ambulance chasing....

FrStone

davo10 wrote: »

You'll have to go back and read the post again, I'm an employer, I received a request for a reference for a former (excellent) employee from the HSE, in other words, the HSE were hiring her. One of the questions on the reference form related to days absent from work excluding holiday leave in the previous six months. i.e, the public service request details of absences when looking for references so how could this be considered discrimination?

I would imagine it is very difficult to get a good reference from an employer who you have accused of bullying. By giving you a good reference they are confirming you are a good employee which makes it very difficult for them to defend the accusation by saying there were issues with your work/behaviour. I suspect in a lot of cases there is some leeway to negotiate a good reference in return for leaving quietly. I'm not saying this is the right thing to do, but it can be the practical thing to do. A lot of prospective employers make a discreet phone call to previous employers and can draw their own conclusions to the tone, brevity of answers to pertinent questions. The simplest being "would you employ her/him again?"

I come across alot of cases in work where employees have sued their current or former empolyer for bullying etc. Generally, the case is settled outside of court and the employee gets a payout but also the wording of a written reference is agreed at that stage too.

I know quite a few companies will only give a reference stating the employees position and how long they have worked with the company as the area of employment references is highly litigious.

I would also have a significant concern of an employer providing details of your sick leave without specifically asking your permission. It is likely to be in breach of data protection legislation. The best thing you could do is seek independent legal advice.

Mrs OBumble

FrStone wrote: »

I would also have a significant concern of an employer providing details of your sick leave without specifically asking your permission. It is likely to be in breach of data protection legislation. The best thing you could do is seek independent legal advice.

I would assume that a reference was only sought with the OP's permission.

If not, then giving sick leave data is the least of the issues.



Agree with the rest of our post though: the best option for the OP is some kind of settlement with their current employer.

daheff

Stealthfins wrote: »

More discrimination again, an employer isn't meant to give a negative reference.

I'd go to a solicitor as soon as possible.

An employer can give any reference they want, so long as its factual and they have your permission to provide personal information to a third party.

Yourself isit wrote: »

Is that not a data breach? Privacy breach?

Only if permission was not given to the company to provide personal information (ie a reference)

beauf

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

...Agree with the rest of our post though: the best option for the OP is some kind of settlement with their current employer.

I don't see how the OP can move on without that. Unless they get a job that doesn't require a reference.