The IRA, dissidents and drugs- so who's telling the truth?

C. Montgomery Gurns

It's the main bone of contention between physical force Republicans and their opponents- the involvement, or lack of thereof, of the Provos and dissidents in the drug trade, both North and South. In the North, the main allegation being that the Provos, at least in some areas, allow for the dealing of recreational drugs (no heroin, crack, crystal meth) in return for payment. The allegation in the South, that they have in the past shaken down gangs for money in order to be allowed to continue operating, or that they have left the gangs alone in return for them importing firearms with their shipments.

So where does the truth lie? Much like the stoner who bangs on about how nobody in recorded history has died from cannabis use despite a handful of cases to the contrary, Republicans will counter that nobody who has ever been convicted of membership of the IRA has later been convicted of drug dealing (although some have certainly skirted the line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_McCann_(drugs_trafficker)). The opposing argument will be that this defence is irrelevant, the Provos didn't sell drugs but rather taxed their sale through violence and intimidation- given that a drug dealer is unlikely to report to the police that the IRA are extorting his illegal profits, it isn't the type of thing anyone is likely to ever be convicted of. Further evidence would seem to lie in the relative non availability of heroin in the North- I have never heard that it is particularly difficult to score recreational drugs in the North yet heroin is near non existent. While it could be a case of the North's drug traffickers simply having more of a moral compass than their Dublin friends, it sounds unlikely for a start. Not to mention the unpopularity. The Republican movement depends on the co operation of the local community, in the North at least. Young people like getting high- they have done in this country for the past 40- 50 years. The IRA restricting the availability of cannabis and other recrational drugs would surely simply be bad PR. Even a cursory look at which of my friends "like" the SF and Gerry Adams pages- of 15 people giving the SF page a like, at least eight are current or previously heavy users of recreational drugs. At least four of them sold drugs for a reasonable amount of time (I'm leaving out people who attempted to sell smoke- I think pretty much every stoner has attempted to set himself up as a dealer at some brief stage). On Gerry's personal page, I count four heavy users and two dealers. Basically, no drugs equals bad PR.

In saying that, most of what we might term the household name drug lords in the North are Loyalists (indeed, from my experience Ireland is nearly the only country I've ever seen where gangsters are as well known to the public as celebrities. Even in NYC the days of the household name gangster went out with the demise of Gotti)

As for the dissidents, their links appear to be more obvious. There has been, if memory serves me correctly, been anti RIRA (or New IRA as they now call themselves) raids in which drugs have been seized in the Republic. Dissidents are known to have had a role in the Regency Hotel attack (while there doesn't even seem to be a "Hutch mob" as the media describes them, and rather the attack seems to have been organised by friends and relatives of Gary Hutch, the dissidents involved knew full well at least some of those hiring their guns and services were knee deep in the drug trade). Not to mention that Michael Barr, a New IRA member who was likely involved in the Regency, had a large quantity of drugs seized from his home for which his mother took the rap.

So, what is your view (from experience and people you know rather than what you read in the papers). My 2 cents would be that I know a few people who knew Alan Ryan, or at least knew him to see, and all of them agree that he detested drug use on a personal level. Whether he was the fearless vigilante gunning down vicious gangsters and beating up people for selling to kids or whether he was Donaghmede's answer to Omar from The Wire seems to be a matter of variable opinion among them.

So, did the Provos licence selling in the North? Do the New IRA actively sell? With many sworn Provos in the North approaching retirement age by now is their influence waning? I'd be interested in hearing opinions of the man on the street (any Nordies here in particular) than Paul Williams take on it.

A Little Pony

Anyone who believes the PIRA or any form of IRA group hasn't profited off drugs is an absolute idiot and should be locked up for eternity.

retalivity

Further evidence would seem to lie in the relative non availability of heroin in the North- I have never heard that it is particularly difficult to score recreational drugs in the North yet heroin is near non existent.

Must have missed the part where Ballymena was known as the heroin capital of the uk in the noughties...

jameorahiely

The ira got money off howard marks via jim mccann.the ra not involved in drugs is laughable

C. Montgomery Gurns

retalivity wrote: »

Must have missed the part where Ballymena was known as the heroin capital of the uk in the noughties...

I did say largely. I know full well about Ballymena but it is a heavily Loyalist town so wouldn't really come into it.

riemann

C. Montgomery Gurns wrote: »

I did say largely. I know full well about Ballymena but it is a heavily Loyalist town so wouldn't really come into it.

Exactly. I've no idea whether the rest is true or not but some people on here have such skewed worldview it's actually impressive to watch them connect dots that don't exist.

Bone Cancer

As a former member and from growing up nearby in my teens, I can attest to Ballymena to being a heroin haven, cocaine wasn't as sought after for whatever reason. There was huge mark ups and any drug dealer who got his supply from elsewhere and tried to undercut the ira was swiftly dealt with, usually a knee capping so he couldn't walk the streets again.

Full Marx

The provos did not deal in drugs, "tax" dealers or permit their sale. Obvious evidence of this was easy to see during the troubles when one compared the levels or drug abuse (particularly heroin) in republican compared to loyalist areas.

I would like to see any convincing evidence that they were involved in selling drugs or "taxing" their sale.

Republicans were also heavily involved in the campaigns against drugs in Dublin and got shot for their trouble. And this was when the great and good were cosying up to Jim Mansfield!!! Pity the provos didn't deal with that druglord.

Dissident republicans (who may include a small amount of ex provos - in reality most tend to be quite young -) however, there is far more evidence that they are involved in drugs.

The provos smuggled cigs, fuel and robbed banks.

Sir Osis of Liver.

jameorahiely wrote: »

The ira got money off howard marks via jim mccann.the ra not involved in drugs is laughable

Fcuk it.The man had to make a crust after The Dubliners.:D

Nordle.

C. Montgomery Gurns

Full Marx wrote: »

The provos did not deal in drugs, "tax" dealers or permit their sale. Obvious evidence of this was easy to see during the troubles when one compared the levels or drug abuse (particularly heroin) in republican compared to loyalist areas.

.

Ballymena aside, isn't heroin almost non existent in Loyalist estates as well?

I did read somewhere that the vast majority of drug seizures in the North tend to be from Loyalist rather than Republican areas, but some suggest the reason is that Loyalist estate residents are far more likely to give drug tip offs to the PSNI than people from nationalist areas who still largely distrust them.

C. Montgomery Gurns

Full Marx wrote: »

Republicans were also heavily involved in the campaigns against drugs in Dublin and got shot for their trouble. And this was when the great and good were cosying up to Jim Mansfield!!! Pity the provos didn't deal with that druglord.

.

I recall reading somewhere about how the CPAD movement, once infiltrated by Republicans, in some areas adopted an a la carte attitude to their Pushers Out marches, with the homes of certain well known dealers left untouched.

Clarebelly

jameorahiely wrote: »

The ira got money off howard marks via jim mccann.the ra not involved in drugs is laughable

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5JQqHO1zmQ

Kristopherus

Full Marx wrote: »

The provos did not deal in drugs, "tax" dealers or permit their sale. Obvious evidence of this was easy to see during the troubles when one compared the levels or drug abuse (particularly heroin) in republican compared to loyalist areas.

I would like to see any convincing evidence that they were involved in selling drugs or "taxing" their sale.

Republicans were also heavily involved in the campaigns against drugs in Dublin and got shot for their trouble. And this was when the great and good were cosying up to Jim Mansfield!!! Pity the provos didn't deal with that druglord.

Dissident republicans (who may include a small amount of ex provos - in reality most tend to be quite young -) however, there is far more evidence that they are involved in drugs.

The provos smuggled cigs, fuel and robbed banks.

If you believe that thats all they got up to, you're living in cloud cuckoo land:pac:

Full Marx

Kristopherus wrote: »

If you believe that thats all they got up to, you're living in cloud cuckoo land:pac:

Well can you offer any evidence or proof?

Even dedicated provo critics like Ed Moloney don't think the provos were involved in drugs.

Full Marx

C. Montgomery Gurns wrote: »

I recall reading somewhere about how the CPAD movement, once infiltrated by Republicans, in some areas adopted an a la carte attitude to their Pushers Out marches, with the homes of certain well known dealers left untouched.

How could they have infiltrated something they were instrumental in starting?

Ask John Humphries about it.

Where did you read that? Thats not how I recall it, but the IRA did not run CPAD and there was bit of a geographical division and faction forming.

A more worthwhile avenue to discuss is the reaction of the state to CPAD and the use of the special criminal court. And the connections between those in power and the drug kingpin Jim Mansfield. How many politicians consorted with him?

The flying mouse

In the 1970s the fact that both republican and loyalist groups made it clear they would kill dealers kept the city, apart from the traditionally bohemian student districts, relatively free of drugs.

This hard-line attitude softened in the late 1980s, particularly on the loyalist side, with increasing quantities of dope and tablets gradually making their appearance. In the early 1990s the IRA maintained its puritanical anti-drugs stance but in other quarters things changed dramatically. Some minor republican groups and some major loyalist figures, seeing the profits to be made, switched from condemning the drugs trade to actively trafficking in it.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/how-the-guns-kept-drugs-out-of-belfast-1526802.html

KingBrian2

All i'll say is the Gardaí make routine seizures of drug dealing supplies & equipment it has to be having an affect on the profits derived from that trade. We also have CAB to seize even more of their assets so with all this loot taken from them i reckon the dissidents resort to hunting each other out to gain market dominance. Too much of that trade ends up in the Gardaí stations.

buried

I honestly don't think the Provisional IRA were involved in any sort of drug trafficking. I don't think they would have been that stupid. For one, the underground world of drug trafficking and drug dealing is infested with contacts and undercover agents from intelligence/police networks which would have been hostile to the IRA. It would have been another route for these agents to infiltrate and get close to the provisional organisation . A good majority of the IRA leaders were staunch, rabid, old school believers in the Catholic faith and church, a church that basically states that all drugs such as heroin, cocaine etc comes from the very tits of satan himself, I don't think those people would have tolerated being a part of it. They also would have known full well if they were caught being part of the drug trade in the 70's and 80's, any funds they were receiving from their supporters in countries like the USA would vanish overnight. It wasn't worth the bad press, risk, hastle or effort to engage in it.

You have to laugh at that old one about the IRA not dealing in drugs.

From shooting Charles Brook Picard to deals with Whitey Bulger and assisting FARC guerrillas in Columbia...and some still can't join the dots...

I mean, of all the conflicts in all the world...Columbia...

The_Kew_Tour

The IRA dont do drugs of course they dont.

They just keep all the profits. Good guys they are

DEFTLEFTHAND

Indirectly involved, they extort the dealers who want to operate in their areas.

This was part of the reason why Alan Ryan was killed in Dublin. The drug gangs came together and formed an alliance (UCA). The goal being to remove the RIRA and all other dissidents from Dublin.

FTA69

The Provisional IRA were never involved in the drug trade and this notion of them being some sort of mafia presiding over communities they were ruining with drugs was always a total fiction. In fact, this sort of nonsense came about as a direct result of the British policy of Ulsterisation, Normalisation and Criminalisation in the mid-1970s that sought to rebrand the IRA as a criminal enterprise as opposed to a national liberation movement rooted in political opposition to Britain's presence in Ireland.

I was involved in the Republican Movement throughout my teens and have had family within in it going back to the late 1970s. While there were definitely some bad eggs within the Provisionals, the organisation was never involved in the drug trade, never profited from it and was genuinely ideologically opposed to it. Where I'm from those involved in selling drugs were generally well known, and it wasn't Republicans.

A few points:
1) Nobody from the IRA was ever convicted of drugs offenses. Out of tens of thousands of years in jail.

2) The IRA depended on support in working class communities, that wouldn't have been garnered had they tolerated or facilitated drugs.

Have there been individuals or even small groups of people with a history of involvement with the IRA who have turned criminal including drugs? Unfortunately yes, it's a tiny minority but these people exist. Was the organisation itself tied in with that? Absolutely not.

This current shower however, whatever they call themselves these days, are actively involved in extorting drug dealers and generally destroying what was once a noble tradition.

pure.conya

Full Marx wrote: »

Well can you offer any evidence or proof?

Even dedicated provo critics like Ed Moloney don't think the provos were involved in drugs.

I have only anecdotal evidence from Howard Marks, he said the ra used to buy 100 tonnes of already cheap hash in Morocco and bring it into Spain where it would be broken up in skips and 100 tonnes of tree bark/lino/human and animal excrement/vinyl or whatever rubbish they could get their hands on, mix it all up and repress 200 tonnes of soap bar, then bring it into Ireland and England for reselling

FTA69

pure.conya wrote: »

I have only anecdotal evidence from Howard Marks, he said the ra used to buy 100 tonnes of already cheap hash in Morocco and bring it into Spain where it would be broken up in skips and 100 tonnes of tree bark/lino/human and animal excrement/vinyl or whatever rubbish they could get their hands on, mix it all up and repress 200 tonnes of soap bar, then bring it into Ireland and England for reselling

Howard Marx was a storyteller at the end of the day, as was that Jim McCann fella who was never involved with the Provisionals to begin with.

Again this notion that the Provisionals IRA were running massive drug factories in Spain is a pile of steaming b*llocks. Funnily enough for people allegedly involved in hands on production of massive amounts of drugs for decades were never caught one.

There are plenty of Irish and English criminals in Spain (Kinihans etc); the Provos weren't on that scene at all.

jimmy blevins

I really don't get the idolisation of Howard marks, he was a lying smart arse drug dealer, too lazy to get a real job despite having opportunities his contemporaries did not have.

DEFTLEFTHAND

jimmy blevins wrote: »

I really don't get the idolisation of Howard marks, he was a lying smart arse drug dealer, too lazy to get a real job despite having opportunities his contemporaries did not have.

Well said.

An international criminal who had contacts with various groups of deplorables across the globe.

A scumbag drug trafficker was all that he was at the end of the day. Go and meet your maker and explain that to him.

FrancieBrady

From Walter Macken to Hollywood and John Ford to Howard Marks - the sinister 'RA man with thick Irish accent, aran sweater, background diddlyaye music.
Do people still buy that cliche?

timthumbni

FTA69 wrote: »

......... While there were definitely some bad eggs within the Provisionals,.

That's one way of describing the Ira ffs.. A barrel of putrid, rotten, stinking cancerous bad apples would be another.

smurgen

jimmy blevins wrote: »

I really don't get the idolisation of Howard marks, he was a lying smart arse drug dealer, too lazy to get a real job despite having opportunities his contemporaries did not have.

Me neither and i often wondered what he was all about.a friend of mine gave me a ticket to see his mr nice talking tour in cork and he name dropped as much as possible and painted himself as a massive international player in the trade of drugs.I did wonder however what such a mega dealer was doing charging 25 ticket talks in a dingy half full club,especially when he didn't look too well at the time.

maryishere

Deleted User wrote: »

You have to laugh at that old one about the IRA not dealing in drugs.

From shooting Charles Brook Picard to deals with Whitey Bulger and assisting FARC guerrillas in Columbia...and some still can't join the dots...

I mean, of all the conflicts in all the world...Columbia...

Those 3 lads were just bird watching;)

LordSutch

The one thing I can remember being told 're the IRA and drug's was that if they caught any young fellas with/or selling drugs, they used to shoot them in the back of the knees (to blow off their knee caps), or just shoot them in the thighs & cripple them for life!

I guess the IRA had their own massive drugs trade too, which made them twisted murderous lying hypocrites of the highest order.

maryishere

Full Marx wrote: »

Even dedicated provo critics like Ed Moloney don't think the provos were involved in drugs.

Was he really much of a "dedicated critic" when he relied on their co-operation to write a book on them? I wonder what he thought of the Columbia 3, for example. These 3 fellows fled from Colombia, where they were sentenced to prison terms of seventeen years for training FARC rebels. Farc had nothing to do with drugs, of course.

FrancieBrady

LordSutch wrote: »

The one thing I can remember being told 're the IRA and drug's was that if they caught any young fellas with/or selling drugs, they used to shoot them in the back of the knees (to blow off their knee caps), or just shoot them in the thighs & cripple them for life!

I guess the IRA had their own massive drugs trade too, which made them twisted murderous lying hypocrites of the highest order.

Ah you 'guess'. Excellent.

Like any army anywhere they would have had their share of recruits with selfish interests.
There is no evidence to suggest that there was systematic drug dealing sanctioned by the IRA. If there is I have yet to see it.

FTA69

LordSutch wrote: »

The one thing I can remember being told 're the IRA and drug's was that if they caught any young fellas with/or selling drugs, they used to shoot them in the back of the knees (to blow off their knee caps), or just shoot them in the thighs & cripple them for life!

I guess the IRA had their own massive drugs trade too, which made them twisted murderous lying hypocrites of the highest order.

More hyperbolic nonsense. If the IRA were running massive drug empires then how come none of them were ever caught at it once? In thirty years; and out of thousands of jail sentences?

Jesus they got caught doing everything else they did. To be honest Sutch, you don't know what you're on about like.

smurgen

LordSutch wrote: »

The one thing I can remember being told 're the IRA and drug's was that if they caught any young fellas with/or selling drugs, they used to shoot them in the back of the knees (to blow off their knee caps), or just shoot them in the thighs & cripple them for life!

I guess the IRA had their own massive drugs trade too, which made them twisted murderous lying hypocrites of the highest order.

Not to excuse them but i would say they used money to finance activities. For.example the taliban in Afghanistan fought the U.S tirelessly for control of the opium fields.it was worth around 3 billion a year to them.at the end of the day they still has equipement to buy and men to pay.

FrancieBrady

smurgen wrote: »

Not to excuse them but i would say they used money to finance activities. For.example the taliban in Afghanistan fought the U.S tirelessly for control of the opium fields.it was worth around 3 billion a year to them.at the end of the day they still has equipement to buy and men to pay.

The faux shock horror that a revolutionary group would rob banks etc to finance a campaign is hilarious at times. It is as if some just turn a blind eye to the fact it has been that way all over the world from the dawn of banks themselves.

It is as if they expected them to apply for a grant to over throw, or hold bazaars and raffles to raise funds. :D

They must be running out of 'exposures' if they are falling back on this old drug dealing chestnut ahead of elections.

LordSutch

FTA69 wrote: »

More hyperbolic nonsense. If the IRA were running massive drug empires then how come none of them were ever caught at it once? In thirty years; and out of thousands of jail sentences?

... and how come Gerry Adams was never caught in the IRA? :rolleyes:

Honestly, you Provo supporters must think we're very dim. The PIRA were masters at armed robberies. Post offices, Bank jobs, extorsion, high value art theft, Kidnappings with a price tag, even high value race horses were in their sights! so why not make a bit of dough to fund the purchase of arms from Lybia, or fertiliser from the garden centre?

Diesel laundering was also a speciality of the PIRA > will you IRA friendly guys deny that too?

FrancieBrady

^^^ That was quick Lord Sutch :D

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The faux shock horror that a revolutionary group would rob banks etc to finance a campaign is hilarious at times. It is as if some just turn a blind eye to the fact it has been that way all over the world from the dawn of banks themselves.

It is as if they expected them to apply for a grant to over throw, or hold bazaars and raffles to raise funds. :D

They must be running out of 'exposures' if they are falling back on this old drug dealing chestnut ahead of elections.

maryishere

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Like any army anywhere they would have had their share of recruits with selfish interests.

army? The PIRA was not an army, more like a terrorist organisation, albeit a very well organised one. The dictionary definition of army is:

1. the military forces of a nation, exclusive of the navy and in some countries the air force.
2.
(in large military land forces) a unit consisting typically of two or more corps and a headquarters.

The PIRA was not the military force of a nation, nor had it a known headquarters.

LordSutch

FrancieBrady wrote: »

^^^ That was quick Lord Sutch :D

I'm still eating my cornflakes

FrancieBrady

LordSutch wrote: »

... and how come Gerry Adams was never caught in the IRA? :rolleyes:

Honestly, you Provo supporters must think we're very dim. The PIRA were masters at armed robberies. Post offices, Bank jobs, extorsion, high value art theft, Kidnappings with a price tag, even high value race hoses were in their sights! so why not make a bit of dough to fund the purchase of arms from Lybia, or fertiliser from the garden centre?

Diesel laundering was also a speciality of the PIRA > will you IRA friendly guys deny that too?

They didn't have access to nice neat Fuel Schemes Lord |Sutch or Nama like cash pots.


Oh to be respectable.

Full Marx

Surprised no one has anything to say about Jim Mansfield

smurgen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The faux shock horror that a revolutionary group would rob banks etc to finance a campaign is hilarious at times. It is as if some just turn a blind eye to the fact it has been that way all over the world from the dawn of banks themselves.

It is as if they expected them to apply for a grant to over throw, or hold bazaars and raffles to raise funds. :D

They must be running out of 'exposures' if they are falling back on this old drug dealing chestnut ahead of elections.

Sure the C.I.A drug smuggled for decades to finance operations in south and central america and they received about 18 billion of the 53 billion allocated to the U.S intelligence agencies in 2016.seems like covert operations are expensive.

FrancieBrady

smurgen wrote: »

Sure the C.I.A drug smuggled for decades to finance operations in south and central america and they received about 18 billion of the 53 billion allocated to the U.S intelligence agencies in 2016.seems like covert operations are expensive.

If the last 20 years has shown us anything, it is that the 'respectable' classes or those with their hands on world banking wheels or government wheels have an ambivalent attitude to where the funds come from.

FTA69

LordSutch wrote: »

... and how come Gerry Adams was never caught in the IRA? :rolleyes:

Honestly, you Provo supporters must think we're very dim. The PIRA were masters at armed robberies. Post offices, Bank jobs, extorsion, high value art theft, Kidnappings with a price tag, even high value race horses were in their sights! so why not make a bit of dough to fund the purchase of arms from Lybia, or fertiliser from the garden centre?

Diesel laundering was also a speciality of the PIRA > will you IRA friendly guys deny that too?

Couple of points:
1) Adams was never convicted of anything; he probably was a member having said that.
2) Libya didn't sell arms to the IRA, they donated cash and guns as they were having a pop at the Brits for allowing the Americans to use the UK to bomb Libya.
3) Yes the IRA did rob banks and smuggle across the border and lots of other stuff. They weren't involved in drugs however.

Funnily enough they got caught kidnapping and got caught smuggling and got caught robbing banks but somehow avoided getting caught once while supposedly running massive drugs operations?

Go on away. There's plenty of valid criticisms you could make of the IRA without having to invent stuff.

smurgen

Maybe they're just trying to get the british troops addicted. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/11733680/Battalions-worth-of-soldiers-sacked-for-drug-taking-every-year.html

FrancieBrady

smurgen wrote: »

Maybe they're just trying to get the british troops addicted. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/11733680/Battalions-worth-of-soldiers-sacked-for-drug-taking-every-year.html

Imagine a pilot, in charge of some of the most sophisticated and advanced weaponry on the planet, high on some of that stuff!

A Little Pony

maryishere wrote: »

Full Marx wrote: »

Even dedicated provo critics like Ed Moloney don't think the provos were involved in drugs.

Was he really much of a "dedicated critic" when he relied on their co-operation to write a book on them?  I wonder what he thought of the Columbia 3, for example.  These 3 fellows fled from Colombia, where they were sentenced to prison terms of seventeen years for training FARC rebels. Farc had nothing to do with drugs, of course.

Anyone who thinks they weren't is either an idiot or is just defending IRA terrorism.

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

Anyone who thinks they weren't is either an idiot or is just defending IRA terrorism.

The British legitimised the IRA campaign.
The British never negotiate with 'terrorists', they negotiated with the IRA.
Time to get over it ALP.

Now have you any actual evidence that the IRA were involved in drug running? (other than a rogue element here or there, which the British Army seems to be having a problem with too )

A Little Pony

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Anyone who thinks they weren't is either an idiot or is just defending IRA terrorism.

The British legitimised the IRA campaign.
The British never negotiate with 'terrorists', they negotiated with the IRA.
Time to get over it ALP.

Now have you any actual evidence that the IRA were involved in drug running? (other than a rogue element here or there, which the British Army seems to be having a problem with too )

You have just said they did themselves, right here. As for legitimizing them, I don't think Irish people had much like for them. They basically surrendered as told by an IRA member on a documentary by Peter Taylor in recent years.

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

You have just said they did themselves, right here. As for legitimizing them, I don't think Irish people had much like for them. They basically surrendered as told by an IRA member on a documentary by Peter Taylor in recent years.

Are rogue elements in the British Army evidence that the Army are doing something? That means the British Army are drug dealers and users. You do know what a 'logical conclusion' is?

Here's another one, if you lay down your arms and capitulate your demands, you have surrendered.
If you refuse to lay down your arms until a deal you accept has been arrived at and implemented, you can be deemed to have won, there is no 'logic' to the idea that a group holding arms has 'surrendered'.