Child refugees -majority to be males aged 17???

oscarBravo

newacc2015 wrote: »

How do you distinguish between these terms? A refugee is a super broad term that is not specific at all.

On the contrary, it's a well-understood term with a specific legal meaning. The UNHCR website is your friend.

Deleted User wrote: »

Who's talking about refugees?

This thread. Try to keep up.

Eoinmc97

oscarBravo wrote: »

On the contrary, it's a well-understood term with a specific legal meaning. The UNHCR website is your friend.

I think the idea was "Is that definition of refugee both agreeable, and applicable to everyone in this case?" or along those lines.
For reference;

A refugee is someone who has been forced to flee his or her country because of persecution, war, or violence. A refugee has a well-founded fear of persecution for reasons of race, religion, nationality, political opinion or membership in a particular social group.

Currently, a uniform and internationally recognised definition for "Migrant" is not available.

Again, we do not have all the facts, nor have we validated these, so it's hard to find the 'right' (forget the momentous philosophical debates one can have to define the concept of 'right') thing to do.

oscarBravo

Eoinmc97 wrote: »

I think the idea was "Is that definition of refugee both agreeable, and applicable to everyone in this case?" or along those lines.

Taking those two parts separately: if you have an issue with the internationally agreed definition of a refugee, you'll have to take it up with the international community. As to whether it's applicable in this case...

Again, we do not have all the facts, nor have we validated these, so it's hard to find the 'right' (forget the momentous philosophical debates one can have to define the concept of 'right') thing to do.

Not having all the facts doesn't seem to have slowed down many of the commentators on this thread who have their minds well and truly made up; they don't need no stinkin' facts.

If anyone has evidence that the government has failed to do its job in assessing the suitability of a candidate for refugee status, they should produce it. Until I see evidence to the contrary, it seems reasonable to assume that if our government has granted refugee status, it's because it's warranted.

gitzy16v

oscarBravo wrote: »

Not having all the facts doesn't seem to have slowed down many of the commentators on this thread who have their minds well and truly made up; they don't need no stinkin' facts.

If there is one fact about the Calais boys its....
on the Economic Migrant<

---

>Refugee spectrum,
those lads are well on the side of Economic Migrant,
we are much better off helping vulnerable children,girls especially,women,elderly and sick.
Those lads made it all the way to France,would we be better off helping those who couldnt make the trip to a safe country first at least,then the Calais Boys.

Mary63

How can we have evidence when we can't and won't see what our 11 million euros will be spent on.

The UK accepted unaccompanied minors but when they landed they were brought in behind a screen so the public wouldn't know what age they are.

We have a right to be told too who bought the hotel recently and the houses and what sort of financial contracts have now been signed to provide accommodation.These are Public Contracts which should have been put to tender so everyone could make a bid f they desired.

Its up to our media to ask these questions on our behalf and if they won't do it our Public Representatives should.

jmayo

gitzy16v wrote: »

I cant believe some people are ok with this situation,the ACTUAL REFUGEES heading for Ballaghadreen are grand,no bother,taken from ACTUAL REFUGEE CAMPS.....these lads from Calais are nothing but criminals,waiting to illegally enter the U.K by any means possible and this clown Zappone is straight up aiding and abetting criminals.

Ehh the ones (initially anyway) heading for Baalaghaderreen are not from a refugee camp, in turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, etc.

They are the share out of the ones that have made it to Europe already thanks to European taxi service in the med, slack border controls in Greece/Turkey and mama merkel's open invitation to everyone and anyone in the Middle East and Africa to come on over.

So if you were rich enough to be able to pay the smugglers you are in, if you were poor you can stay sitting in the cold of winter in Lebanon, Jordan or Turkey.
Oh and 200 young lads from Calais, half of whom I bet couldn't point out Syria on a map, in their first year here will cost around 50 odd million which would probably help thousands in those camps in Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey.

rgossip30

gitzy16v wrote: »

I cant believe some people are ok with this situation,the ACTUAL REFUGEES heading for Ballaghadreen are grand,no bother,taken from ACTUAL REFUGEE CAMPS.....these lads from Calais are nothing but criminals,waiting to illegally enter the U.K by any means possible and this clown Zappone is straight up aiding and abetting criminals.

I wonder how many unaccompanied 'minors' will suddenly have a large family and want reunification .
When these young male bucks arrive how will they satisfy their sexual appetite ?
DNA testing is inaccurate by 4.7 years and in the UK dental checks were deemed too invasive .
These are just token numbers to say we are doing our bit one hopes but I think its the beginning of a 'wonderful' new program .

jmayo

oscarBravo wrote: »

Taking those two parts separately: if you have an issue with the internationally agreed definition of a refugee, you'll have to take it up with the international community. As to whether it's applicable in this case... Not having all the facts doesn't seem to have slowed down many of the commentators on this thread who have their minds well and truly made up; they don't need no stinkin' facts.

If anyone has evidence that the government has failed to do its job in assessing the suitability of a candidate for refugee status, they should produce it. Until I see evidence to the contrary, it seems reasonable to assume that if our government has granted refugee status, it's because it's warranted.

Here are some facts for you.

A young lad born in 1992 who grew up in poverty a town called Oueslatia in Tunisia left school at 13, turned to booze and got into criminality because he was poor according to his family.

He fled after been charged with theft of a truck and was sentenced to 5 years in his absence.
In 2011 he crossed the Mediterranean to Italy on a migrant boat, landing first in Lampedusa.
He pretended to be a child refugee fleeing the Arab Spring fallout.

He was yet another refugee/asylum seeker statistic.

In Italy he turned to crime, he was jailed for 4 years for an arson attack on a migrant centre.
In jail he really turned to violence and intimidation which resulted in him spending a total of 70 days in solitary confinement.

After getting out of jail in May 2015 he left Italy and spent 3 weeks in Switzerland before moving on to Germany in search of better opportunities arriving there in June 2015.

His asylum claim took many months to process in the immense backlog, as more than one million migrants flooded into Germany, but it was finally rejected in July 2016.
He was supposed to be deported but his expulsion couldn’t be carried out because he didn’t have valid identity papers. Germany requested a replacement passport from the Tunisian authorities but they at first denied he was their citizen.

German authorities had linked him to an Iraqi ISIS recruiter and one of Germany’s most notorious jihadist preachers.
As early as February 2016 he was put on a list of individuals to be investigated as far as legally possible.

He was investigated by German police over a suspected attempt to buy automatic weapons for a terror plot.

On the night of 19 December 2016, he and possibly others hijacked a Polish truck killing it's driver Łukasz Urban and then ploughed the truck into the Christmas market beside Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial Church at Breitscheidplatz in Berlin.
He killed 12 and injured 56 people.

The Tunisian driver fled likely travelling to Nijmegen, the Netherlands, where it is thought he took a bus to the Lyon-Part-Dieu train station in France.
He then took a train from Lyon, via Chambéry to Milan, Italy, via the Italian city of Turin.
On Dec 23rd in Milan when he was challenged by Italian police for identification he opened fire wounding one officer.
He was killed.

So ends the life of child refugee, migrant, asylum seeker, criminal and terrorist Anis Amri.

BTW his new passport arrived from Tunisia two days after the market attack.

How do those facts suit you ?

rgossip30

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

No you're right, I have worked with many Muslim over the last 30 years and not a sigle one of them has even blinked when I told them I am an Atheist never mind tried to convert me


But keep listening to the media lads apparently I would have had my throat cut 1000 times if I had divulged this information to your average everyday Muslim.

Just your experience . I found that muslims hate the west for the crusades and support of Israel .

Stheno wrote: »

Home to where? Shes an irish citizen

Sent home to where she lives in Ireland without a pension .

baz2009 wrote: »

And he was quite atrocious at the job.

I see a report that he was a train driver on the underground before coming to Ireland to claim asylum ?
Laoise Nationalist story is not online now.

http://www.politics.ie/forum/current-affairs/22865-should-mayor-portlaoise-deported.html

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I hate the west's support of Israel and the way they treat the Palestinian people, does this make me a terrorist?

Not sure what you are driving at maybe just a desperate need to post . I don't like the west's support of Israel also .

oscarBravo wrote: »

On the contrary, it's a well-understood term with a specific legal meaning. The UNHCR website is your friend.



This thread. Try to keep up.

What is your response when someone just turns up refuses to say nationality and give their name . They cannot be deported and the way its going would have an amnesty after 5 years .

Timberrrrrrrr

rgossip30 wrote: »

Just your experience . I found that muslims hate the west for the crusades and support of Israel .

I hate the west's support of Israel and the way they treat the Palestinian people, does this make me a terrorist?

Mary63

Thanks for the information jmayo.It is truly scary reading and if that is how inept the Germans authorities were at protecting their citizens I shiver at the danger we Irish are in.

I have no confidence whatsoever that anyone in Authority is trained in how to deal with these terrorists, either the homegrown ones or the ones who are getting in either by pretending to be "teenagers" or else slipping in undetected.

The Germans slipped up very badly with the Berlin terrorist but at least an investigation is taking place now into how each and every official involved acted.Hopefully someone will accept responsibility, which never happens in this country.

kupus

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I hate the west's support of Israel and the way they treat the Palestinian people, does this make me a terrorist?

You hate Israel. As far as i see it makes you anti-semitic.

Mary63

Mary63 wrote: »

Thanks for the information jmayo.It is truly scary reading and if that is how inept the Germans authorities were at protecting their citizens I shiver at the danger we Irish are in.

I have no confidence whatsoever that anyone in Authority is trained in how to deal with these terrorists, either the homegrown ones or the ones who are getting in either by pretending to be "teenagers" or else slipping in undetected.

The Germans slipped up very badly with the Berlin terrorist but at least an investigation is taking place now into how each and every official involved acted.Hopefully someone will accept responsibility, which never happens in this country.

Maybe. Or maybe a sacrificial lamb is required, and sacrificial lambs don't generally come from the top echelons...

And, yes, I'm a cynic - or a realist, depending on your viewpoint.

recedite

Deleted User wrote: »

..and sacrificial lambs don't generally come from the top echelons....

No sign of Angela Merkel stepping up to the chopping board anyway. It was she who said Syrians could not be deported from Germany and tried to put pressure on the UK to make a similar announcement.
Amri was a child refugee from Syria, according to himself, and this could not be disproved until the German prosecutor got hold of his Tunisian passport.
By which time, lots of Berliners were dead, and the UK had finally had enough of the EU.
So yeah, nice one Angela. Keep up the good work.

newacc2015

oscarBravo wrote: »

On the contrary, it's a well-understood term with a specific legal meaning. The UNHCR website is your friend.

It is also super broad. The UNHCR defines it as "Refugees are people fleeing conflict or persecution."

What conflict are these people fleeing from in Turkey? Or fleeing from in Greece? Both are safe countries with a decent standard of living.

So you are telling me someone who goes from Syria through Eastern Europe to Germany or France is only doing so to avoid conflict? If I was any of wiser, I would see them as shopping for the country with the best welfare/ job opportunities which would make them seem like economic migrants.

jmayo

newacc2015 wrote: »

It is also super broad. The UNHCR defines it as "Refugees are people fleeing conflict or persecution."

What conflict are these people fleeing from in Turkey? Or fleeing from in Greece? Both are safe countries with a decent standard of living.

So you are telling me someone who goes from Syria through Eastern Europe to Germany or France is only doing so to avoid conflict? If I was any of wiser, I would see them as shopping for the country with the best welfare/ job opportunities which would make them seem like economic migrants.

This is the thing.
We are being told the young guys in Calais are fleeing persecution and war.
We are being told how some of them have suffered for years now sitting in the likes of Calais trying to get to UK.
And once they get here there will then be told they should be reunited with their families back in the warzones.

Except that leads me to one question, how have their families managed for the last few years in the warzones ?
Surely if it was that bad they would have fled as well and also be sitting in France somewhere ?

It is the same with the mullarkey spouted by the pro side about how the young guys wandering from Greece up through the Balkans to Germany were without women, children, parents, the old because they were the only ones that could make the hazardous journey through Turkey and across the sea in leaky dinghies to Greece.

If they had been in such peril and by extension probably their families, why weren't they demanding that they were reunited with them once they got to Greece ?

Why did they have to set off walking to Germany and some even to Sweden?
And yes we know they caught trains eventually.

Surely to fook they would be worried about their families back home rather than trying to get to Germany to go on the tear to celebrate New Years ?

To me it is like someone escaping out of a burning house and then pissing off down the road to the nearest pub before trying to initiate rescue for the family back in the burning house.

Mary63

Other half annoys me so much at times I think about getting on a boat too and I quite fancy living on an Island In Greece.

If I take the chance will someone give me a house and enough money to live on for the rest of my days.

rgossip30

Mary63 wrote: »

Other half annoys me so much at times I think about getting on a boat too and I quite fancy living on an Island In Greece.

If I take the chance will someone give me a house and enough money to live on for the rest of my days.

I am often tempted to ask asylum seekers or refugees how to enter and get residence here .

Brian?

rgossip30 wrote: »

I wonder how many unaccompanied 'minors' will suddenly have a large family and want reunification .
When these young male bucks arrive how will they satisfy their sexual appetite ?

How does any 17 year old? What relevance does this have to taking in refugees.

Referring to these children as "bucks" is disgusting, it's a racist dog whistle and I don't know whether you even realise it.

They're children because they are under 18 and they are refugees because they have been designated as refugees. Any argument to the contrary is pointless.

Brian?

rgossip30 wrote: »

I wonder how many unaccompanied 'minors' will suddenly have a large family and want reunification .
When these young male bucks arrive how will they satisfy their sexual appetite ?

How does any 17 year old? What relevance does this have to taking in refugees.

Referring to these children as "bucks" is disgusting, it's a racist dog whistle and I don't know whether you even realise it.

They're children because they are under 18 and they are refugees because they have been designated as refugees. Any argument to the contrary is pointless.

Brian?

kupus wrote: »

You hate Israel. As far as i see it makes you anti-semitic.

Hating Jews makes you anti Semitic. No matter how much the Israelies conflate the 2, hating the actions of the state of Israel is not anti semitism.

Brian?

Mary63 wrote: »

Other half annoys me so much at times I think about getting on a boat too and I quite fancy living on an Island In Greece.

If I take the chance will someone give me a house and enough money to live on for the rest of my days.

Have you seen the refugee camps in Greece? To belittle the plight of those poor people displays either a complete lack of empathy or a complete lack of knowledge.

b_mac2

Brian? wrote: »

Referring to these children as "bucks" is disgusting, it's a racist dog whistle and I don't know whether you even realise it.

If that's the case my Grandfather must have been a horrible racist so, he always referred to us as "bucks".

Why the fudge do people look to be outraged in lieu of others these days?

johnnyskeleton

Mod note:

This thread has gone quite a bit off topic and the standards are quite low. Please make substantial contributions or dont post on the thread.

Brian?

b_mac2 wrote: »

If that's the case my Grandfather must have been a horrible racist so, he always referred to us as "bucks".

Why the fudge do people look to be outraged in lieu of others these days?

It's all about context. Your Grandad wasn't being racist, I use bucks myself sometimes talking to the kids.

"Bucks" is commonly used by white supremacists to refer to men who are members of minority groups. Much like the words "snowflake", "SJW" etc. it has spread out from the various alt right/white supremacist sub reddits, 4chan and so on. It's become acceptable to use as a derogatory term for minority males again. Male slaves were referred
to as bucks.

Given the content of the post it was used in, I think my disgust is bang on. Context is key. In the alt right echo chambers of Reddit no one will challenge it's use. Even if I turn out to be wrong, I will challenge its use here.

Count Dooku

Brian? wrote: »

Have you seen the refugee camps in Greece? To belittle the plight of those poor people displays either a complete lack of empathy or a complete lack of knowledge.

Do you know how much those 'poor ' people had to pay to get even to Greece? They ready to suffer temporary discomfort before their investment will pay back.
And try to think how people in poor countries can get thousands of euro to pay smugglers for their service

Brian?

Count Dooku wrote: »

Do you know how much those 'poor ' people had to pay to get even to Greece? They ready to suffer temporary discomfort before their investment will pay back.
And try to think how people in poor countries can get thousands of euro to pay smugglers for their service

So sleeping in tents during a scalding hot summer an unprecedentedly cold winter doesn't make them worthy of your pity? They're not poor to you because they had the money to escape.

As I said a complete lack of empathy.

recedite

Brian? wrote: »

So sleeping in tents during a scalding hot summer an unprecedentedly cold winter doesn't make them worthy of your pity?

If they were genuine Syrian war refugees they would have taken up the offer to register in a centre and been transported to Germany.
But these guys are from places like Bangladesh, Pakistan and Afghanistan. Its their choice to remain there because they hope the land border will open up again and the "free for all" will resume. Basically they are illegal immigrants.
They could accept that they were too late, and just give up this idea they had, and choose to go back home. But that would be too humiliating for them, having already sold up their belongings and told their friends and neighbours that they were off to Germany to sample the good life.

So yeah, its a tough situation to be in, but they took a gamble of their own free will, and lost.

The kindest thing would be for Germany to pay for a free ticket home. After all it was the Germans that invited them, but then changed their minds when they saw how many were coming.

jmayo

Brian? wrote: »

How does any 17 year old? What relevance does this have to taking in refugees.

Referring to these children as "bucks" is disgusting, it's a racist dog whistle and I don't know whether you even realise it.

They're children because they are under 18 and they are refugees because they have been designated as refugees. Any argument to the contrary is pointless.

Lets be fair technically some of them may be children, but they were old enough and hairy enough to get to France and then hang around the jungle, some for many years so they are not some wet behind the ears kids.

And as has been found out by other states the ages they claim to be and the reality are far from the same.
If anything it has been found the majority are lying about their ages.

In fact one Anis Amri upon his arrival in Lampedusa, Italy in February 2011 claimed he was a minor when in fact he was 19.

The supposed 15 year old asylum seeker in Sweden that stabbed 22-year-old aid worker Alexandra Mezher to death at an accommodation centre in Sweden in January 2016 was ruled to be actually an adult by Sweden’s migration agency.

BTW just because some agency designates them refugees doesn't alter fact most of them are actually just economic migrants and most of them aren't from Syria or Iraq.

Brian? wrote: »

It's all about context. Your Grandad wasn't being racist, I use bucks myself sometimes talking to the kids.

"Bucks" is commonly used by white supremacists to refer to men who are members of minority groups. Much like the words "snowflake", "SJW" etc. it has spread out from the various alt right/white supremacist sub reddits, 4chan and so on. It's become acceptable to use as a derogatory term for minority males again. Male slaves were referred
to as bucks.

Given the content of the post it was used in, I think my disgust is bang on. Context is key. In the alt right echo chambers of Reddit no one will challenge it's use. Even if I turn out to be wrong, I will challenge its use here.

It is getting to the stage where we can't now use our own indigenous terms because some muppet in some other country uses it in a different way and some assume we in Ireland aim to make the same point as the muppets.

And you are right context is key.
I don't think, or at least i would hope, the poster is some white supremacist or member of the KKK and we are not in the USA.

BTW I was having the crack with the quare fellow down the road and he was complainin about that young bucko of his speedin round the place in his new car.
How many people have I upset with that sentence ?

Old Bill

Brian? wrote: »

So sleeping in tents during a scalding hot summer an unprecedentedly cold winter doesn't make them worthy of your pity? They're not poor to you because they had the money to escape.

As I said a complete lack of empathy.

They exploit our empathy these people are taking us all for a ride.

Just listen to what former Justice Minster Michael McDowell had to say about them.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/mcdowell-rubbishes-tall-stories-of-some-asylum-seekers-25985727.html

JUSTICE Minister Michael McDowell has hit out at the "rubbish" stories asylum seekers come up with to get into Ireland.


He gave examples for motivation to enter such as that of a first cousin of the applicant having been involved in a coup 20 years previously, or an asylum seeker having been selected by a cult for ritual sacrifice - or that they themselves had been asked to perform a ritual sacrifice. Mr McDowell said: "They don't know how they get to Ireland because there are no direct flights, and they can't explain". "Cock-and-bull" and "far-fetched nonsense" were being given by people seeking asylum in Ireland, he said.

Speaking at a Dail Committee on Justice, Defence, Equality and Women's Rights, Mr McDowell also said there was too much "political correctness".

He said the patience of Irish people would be very much tested if they knew the stories being told by people looking for asylum. He said he would like to interview asylum seekers at the airport. "I would like to interview these people at the airport, but the UN insists that I go through due procedure. As soon as we go through due process and the gardai arrive, they lift the phone and call a lawyer, who gets them a judicial review to get them taken off the plane," the minister said. He criticised the large amount of "manifestly bogus" political correctness in Ireland. "There's a lot of political correctness that goes on here and it is manifestly bogus, far-fetched nonsense and it's about time we said it," he noted.

If people arrive in Ireland with their children and are not entitled to asylum, they and their children will be going home within 10-12 weeks, he added.
Services for asylum seekers cost a large sum, he said, adding he had never seen anybody involved in the NGO sector admitting there was a major problem with bogus asylum applications.