What Club to join (Wicklow)

Milk_Tray

I have a bit of a dilemma for this year as I am really undecided on which club to join and would be interested to hear others opinions. The 3 options at the moment are Wicklow GC, Powerscourt & Bray GC.

Wicklow - I was a member last year(first year), very tough course but stunning views and in fantastic condition, facilities arent great but as an intermediate member is a competitive price @ 550 per year

Bray - Literally on my doorstep, course not bad but not very exciting however easier than Wicklow IMO. Good setup with facilities. Price is 1600 for the year but course doesnt blow me away, its very convenient though & a few mates play there.

Powerscourt - Incredible setup, 2 courses, top notch facilities. Really enjoy both tracks however I find tough. Pricing for intermediate is 1500 however from next year it would jump to 2300 which is quite steep for me. Have a few mates here also which is good.

I feel I could get my handicap down quite a bit if I played in Bray. Wicklow is a hard place to get a good score no matter how good I know it lol. Powerscourt is a cracking deal but next years pricing isnt really affordable right now.(I really dont want to be hopping to different clubs each year either)

I guess Im finding it tough to make a choice and would love others opinions and thoughts to potentially help make up my mind for me lol:rolleyes:

First Up

Did you consider Old Conna?

Milk_Tray

First Up wrote: »

Did you consider Old Conna?

I played it and just wasnt really for me, I guess some courses just have that , you either like or dont like, and old conna, along with Delgany just werent courses I really enjoyed

ShriekingSheet

Convenience and mates are huge factors.

Quality of course matters less over time. It's just your golf club, after a while. Even if you join a 5 star place, the novelty wears off.

I wouldn't be a massive fan of Bray myself, but if it was very near me and my mates were in it I would definitely join.

Corkey123

I was in the same position a number of years back. A dozen courses within a 5 mile radius of my house - which one to pick mmmh?

Some determining factors for me were:

Picking a course that was near enough to practice.
Avoid driving by a number of different courses to get to mine
Being local meant playing and meeting locals on the course
Financial Stability - is the land owned by the club

For me that happened to be Bray GC, and I haven't regretted it one bit. A bit biased maybe - but factual

fred funk }{

If you're willing to travel a bit farther south, Arklow is a cracking course.

Macker1

What about Blainroe ?

Haven't played there in quite a few years but

Milk_Tray

Arklow is great, Blainroe never played but ideally Wicklow is even that bit far now iv moved to Bray, Arklow is just too far

neckedit

Milk_Tray wrote: »

Arklow is great, Blainroe never played but ideally Wicklow is even that bit far now iv moved to Bray, Arklow is just too far

Charlesland in Greystones... not too far from ya and are doing decent Intermediate deals.

CMOTDibbler

I'd go with what's closest to me and has a decent chance of getting on the time sheet pretty much whenever I want. I'm lucky in that my club is ten minutes away and it means I can practice regularly.

That's worth a lot when you factor in how much free time you actually have.

d2ww

Surprised that you feel that Bray is so much easier than Wicklow, I would have thought that they had about the same ratio of hard/easy holes. However, the greens on Bray are bloody slow though.
I presume that you have considered Greystones, GoD, DH/DG and Woodbrook?
As for Bray, they introduced a new 'points' membership this year, that might interest you.

bailey99

Arklow, Tulfarris, Rathsallagh, Macreddin, Woodenbridge! Choice is endless. Personnally, I think Macreddin is a fantastic course.

Best county in Ireland for courses in my opinion with Donegal running it very close.

Seve OB

probably the toughest area in Ireland to choose a golf course from!

In my recollection you were in DH before? If you have narrowed it down to the 3 courses you mention, I would go with Powerscourt and worry about next year when that comes around. It can't be any more than 10 minutes further for you but look what you get.......

First Up

bailey99 wrote:

Best county in Ireland for courses in my opinion with Donegal running it very close.

Agree. Spoilt for choice in style, locations and price range

Crapgolfer

Glen of the downs would be quite close to bray and druids heath/glen. Roundwood golf club for the more adventurous!

Milk_Tray

Seve OB wrote: »

probably the toughest area in Ireland to choose a golf course from!

In my recollection you were in DH before? If you have narrowed it down to the 3 courses you mention, I would go with Powerscourt and worry about next year when that comes around. It can't be any more than 10 minutes further for you but look what you get.......

I think you're right! Spoilt for choice in fairness but I think I would be mad to turn it down!

BraveDonut

I would be of the same opinion that I don't see Wicklow as more of a challenge than Bray.

Also Bray, again in my opinion, is more of a members club than Powerscourt.

I have been a member of Bray for about 8 years and I love it there. The fact that it is on my doorstep was the biggest factor in deciding to go there in the first place.

The other local options are too expensive for me - Powerscourt & Dunlaoghaire as I simply don't play enough to see the value.

Dtoffee

Powerscourt is probably the best course, but I joined Glen of the Downs a few years ago and love it. Great club atmosphere and not too hard on the body in terms of hillwalking ;-). My golf has improved since I joined as I play more and my handicap has happily gone down. So wherever you join .... make sure you can play enough to give you value for your outlay as its vital in my opinion.

Enjoy it wherever you go.:)

Seve OB

Dtoffee wrote: »

Powerscourt is probably the best course, but I joined Glen of the Downs a few years ago and love it. Great club atmosphere and not too hard on the body in terms of hillwalking ;-). My golf has improved since I joined as I play more and my handicap has happily gone down. So wherever you join .... make sure you can play enough to give you value for your outlay as its vital in my opinion.

Enjoy it wherever you go.:)

No way...... GOD is much better course than Powerscourt, ya lucky git, would love to play that week in /week out

Hacker111

Wicklow offers great value for intermediates, when you hit full its only €999... still great value for money than a lot of other tracks...... Course as you say is in great condition...more serious work planned for certain holes over next 1-2 years..... strong playing membership and 20 mins from Bray..... no decision really (says Wicklow member )

nb it takes a full year to figure out the holes/greens etc...you will see the improvement in your game/scores after 12 months...

nb 2 at €768 for new full members and €525 for intermediates bring some mates with you!

d2ww

Hacker111 wrote: »

Wicklow offers great value for intermediates, when you hit full its only €999... still great value for money than a lot of other tracks...... Course as you say is in great condition...more serious work planned for certain holes over next 1-2 years..... strong playing membership and 20 mins from Bray..... no decision really (says Wicklow member )

nb it takes a full year to figure out the holes/greens etc...you will see the improvement in your game/scores after 12 months...

nb 2 at €768 for new full members and €525 for intermediates bring some mates with you!

You'd only be hitting the road in spots, if you try to get there in 20 mins!

AhHaor

Looks like Glen of the downs isn't an option any more. Gates locked this morning. Apparently farmer not paying banks.

Source: golf shop

fred funk }{

AhHaor wrote: »

Looks like Glen of the downs isn't an option any more. Gates locked this morning. Apparently farmer not paying banks.

Source: golf shop

Wow.

First Up

AhHaor wrote:

Looks like Glen of the downs isn't an option any more. Gates locked this morning. Apparently farmer not paying banks.

That's awful but hopefully a temporary problem. But what does a farmer's relationship with his bank have to do with anything?

neckedit

First Up wrote: »

That's awful but hopefully a temporary problem. But what does a farmer's relationship with his bank have to do with anything?

The Farmer owns the Land the course is built on, Golf Club leases land from Farmer..... Golf Club not paying the rent, allegedly..... Farmer doesn't pay Banks...... downward spiral..... never nice to hear.

First Up

neckedit wrote:

The Farmer owns the Land the course is built on, Golf Club leases land from Farmer..... Golf Club not paying the rent, allegedly..... Farmer doesn't pay Banks...... downward spiral..... never nice to hear.

Still not clear what entitles the bank to lock the gate. Hardly in anyone's interest to stop whatever income is available.

thinned it

First Up wrote: »

Still not clear what entitles the bank to lock the gate. Hardly in anyone's interest to stop whatever income is available.

It's been placed into liquidation.

neckedit

First Up wrote: »

Still not clear what entitles the bank to lock the gate. Hardly in anyone's interest to stop whatever income is available.

The Bank have foreclosed by the sounds of it. No point the bank leaving it open of they are not getting paid. They will either appoint someone to run it or look to sell assets. I would think the former.

First Up

neckedit wrote:

The Bank have foreclosed by the sounds of it. No point the bank leaving it open of they are not getting paid. They will either appoint someone to run it or look to sell assets. I would think the former.

OK. I don't know the set up - i.e who owes the money to who. If the farmer/owner locked the gate then fair enough I suppose but it was hardly the bank's call

neckedit

First Up wrote: »

OK. I don't know the set up - i.e who owes the money to who. If the farmer/owner locked the gate then fair enough I suppose but it was hardly the bank's call

Unfortunately it is the Banks call, Bank foreclose on the debt. You don't pay your mortgage.... Bank take your house.

Dtoffee

In all of the above, the members paid their fees and it seems the PLC failed to pay the banks .... the Plc being seperate from the Farmer, but including some of his family. Once a liquidator is appointed, the golf club members committee will be trying to secure a deal.

Hopefully a quick solution will be found, so that the staff and members will have a future there as its a very friendly club.

AhHaor

Wonder if this is having an effect on anything

http://m.independent.ie/business/commercial-property/1m-for-107-acres-in-delgany-a-long-term-investment-35202445.html

Kingswood Rover

Hopefully the club can organize golf for this coming season with the liquidators ASAP. Interesting conjecture in the link above.

AhHaor

Yeah. But it's interesting that first Kilcoole failed, now it appears Glen of the Downs is going that way. Wonder how many clubs round there are in same boat. Lot of old members not being replaced by younger ones. No more 10 k joining money.

CMOTDibbler

Glen of the Downs had (or has) four or five hundred members. At around €1,500 a head, that makes the €1 million price tag quite attractive.

Ronney

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Glen of the Downs had (or has) four or five hundred members. At around €1,500 a head, that makes the €1 million price tag quite attractive.

Could probably be done over a number of years with a mortgage and only a small €100-€200 levy on members.

CMOTDibbler

Ronney wrote: »

Could probably be done over a number of years with a mortgage and only a small €100-€200 levy on members.

That's if the members want to buy it out and it's entirely feasible with that price tag. But it's also feasible for an investor to buy and collect the rent from the club.

Dtoffee

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Glen of the Downs had (or has) four or five hundred members. At around €1,500 a head, that makes the €1 million price tag quite attractive.

That is the best solution for the members and one that has been mentioned with the club. The advert shown above refers to the golf course lands owned by the farmer but not the clubhouse. Allegedly he had failed to pay the banks and the banks then sold it to a vulture fund. The vulture fund immediately put it up for sale and once the banks were out of the picture the farmer tried to buy it back !

The closure of the clubhouse is more to do with the seperate PLC as the members were not willing to pay membership fees without some resolution to the ongoing debts. With no incoming subs and suppliers getting nervy, it was only to be expected that the PLC would go into liquidation.

Its now really a matter of how quick or slow the process is. If the liquidator acts fast, the club could be saved as a going concern .... but every days delay will see golfers going elsewhere. There a few things that favour a members buy out, one seems to be that the lands is zoned recreational and Wicklow CC is not known for rezoning very easily. The other is that the land cannot be farmed for 5 yrs due to the chemicals used on golf courses, so farners may not be interested in such a wait.

Time will tell, but hope remains.

Dtoffee

AhHaor wrote: »

Yeah. But it's interesting that first Kilcoole failed, now it appears Glen of the Downs is going that way. Wonder how many clubs round there are in same boat. Lot of old members not being replaced by younger ones. No more 10 k joining money.

GoDs age profile is quite good and they attracted a lot of under 50s in recent years. The membership numbers are very good and the issue is more to do with things beyond their control .... all that changes now that liquidation has been called by the company. Decisions are now purely financial and offers will be listened to.

morrga

AhHaor wrote: »

Yeah. But it's interesting that first Kilcoole failed, now it appears Glen of the Downs is going that way. Wonder how many clubs round there are in same boat. Lot of old members not being replaced by younger ones. No more 10 k joining money.

With a club like GOD failing it will give further credibiliy to clubs in the vicinity like Woodbrook to maintain their signing on fee with a potential flood of new members onto the market.

CMOTDibbler

morrga wrote: »

With a club like GOD failing it will give further credibiliy to clubs in the vicinity like Woodbrook to maintain their signing on fee with a potential flood of new members onto the market.

There are still plenty of clubs in the area with no signing on fees. Powerscourt, Bray, Dun Laoghaire, Delgany, Charlesland, Druids Glen and Heath, Wicklow, Roundwood etc.

AhHaor

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

There are still plenty of clubs in the area with no signing on fees. Powerscourt, Bray, Dun Laoghaire, Delgany, Charlesland, Druids Glen and Heath, Wicklow, Roundwood etc.

The Glen is now charging 5k

CMOTDibbler

AhHaor wrote: »

The Glen is now charging 5k

Did they just start that this year? I seem to remember it being sub only last year, but that could be just old age catching up on me.

Anyhow, still leaves plenty around that don't charge it.

neckedit

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Did they just start that this year? I seem to remember it being sub only last year, but that could be just old age catching up on me.

Anyhow, still leaves plenty around that don't charge it.

Recent enough I think.
Id say your gonna see fees like this creeping back in, probably not an up front payment but payable over a few years, in an effort to curb the nomadic golfer.

CMOTDibbler

neckedit wrote: »

Recent enough I think.
Id say your gonna see fees like this creeping back in, probably not an up front payment but payable over a few years, in an effort to curb the nomadic golfer.

Probably. But it's only likely where clubs have reached a number of members that makes it feasible. Clubs trying to expand their membership won't do it.

newport2

We had a match scheduled against GoD this Sunday, Fitzgibbon Cup. 3 home, 3 away matches. Anyone know what happens in these circumstances?

Dtoffee

newport2 wrote: »

We had a match scheduled against GoD this Sunday, Fitzgibbon Cup. 3 home, 3 away matches. Anyone know what happens in these circumstances?

I would imagine it will be at your place, but that also begs the question ...... if the club has no course and members subs inc GUI have not been collected / paid, then what is the situation re competition and handicaps etc ?

Does your GUI card have a honeymoon period where you can still play in opens etc?

I would expect the GoDs committee are looking at playing rights elsewhere in the interm, thus allowing the club to maintain its GUI affiliation.

BillyBoy

newport2 wrote: »

We had a match scheduled against GoD this Sunday, Fitzgibbon Cup. 3 home, 3 away matches. Anyone know what happens in these circumstances?

I am guessing you are a Powerscourt member? Foxrock here, I think we are in the same group for the Fitzgibbon. Could you let me know what happens? Would be interested to see what happens as we will probably be in the same situation as you guys.

newport2

BillyBoy wrote: »

I am guessing you are a Powerscourt member? Foxrock here, I think we are in the same group for the Fitzgibbon. Could you let me know what happens? Would be interested to see what happens as we will probably be in the same situation as you guys.

Yep, will do.

Seve OB

http://wicklownews.net/2017/01/glen-of-the-downs-golf-club-goes-into-liquidation/

mrawkward

This a very complex situation with two separate legal entities. The land ownership is now with a receiver appointed by the debenture holder, Goldman Sachs. The
Plc holds a 99 year lease on that. The Plc has ceased trading and a liquidator will be appointed. In theory, if rent is unpaid, the land loan holder could seize all non mobile assets. Expect a spat between receiver and liquidator to grab all they can for their masters. They are legally obliged to do so
No staff, no maintenance.... will the liquidator maintain the course? doubt it. Where is all the equipment/stock...who owns it? Expect creditors to remove anything not paid for/leased etc.

Unless there is a prepackaged deal in the wings, these situations go downhill very fast. €2-3M needed fast to have any chance of operating as a golf course in the short to medium term