Help, my husband ill abroad

Spooky 2015

Hello everyone.....
I am an Indonesian who marry an Irish man.Three years ago we moved to Indonesia. On 2016, He was diagnosed with Chronic Limb ischemia. We tried to get a medical treatment locally, with an Indonesian state health insurance. A Cardiovascular hospital in Indonesia did a botch bypass surgery on him. Now, his leg in danger of an amputation. The hospital washed their hand from any responsibilities, so did the state insurance.
I brought him to many other hospital, most of them did not have the tool and expertise. The Hospital that offer him help would charge a minimum of  €9,000 for the surgery alone and would not accept state insurance. We can not afford €9,000 as we have very little income.
Because this condition will require urgent and long term medical treatment, we are planning to go back to Ireland for good.
We asked Irish embassy for help regarding liaison with HSe because we do not want to take a risky journey for nothing. I just a definite answer that HSe will look after him as an Irish returning home in need of urgent medical intervention.
To our surprise, the embassy told us that they can not contact HSe on our behalf. We have to contact HSe ourselves.
I opened DFA website, it mentioned that:
# If you become ill or need hospital treatment while you’re abroad, you can contact your nearest Irish Embassy or Consulate. We can help you to deal with the situation.
What we can do: We can contact your family, friends or designated emergency contact in Ireland.#
Now, my husband just lying there ill and frustrated.
My parent and I are trying to get help from Indonesian government to save an Irish man.
Please help us with information or any option that we might have.
Thank you

lc180

Have you tried contacting the HSE yourselves and explained the situation?

Tom Mann Centuria

Surely relocation costs and housing costs will be significant if you move back to Ireland. How will you pay for those?

Clarebelly

Spooky 2015 wrote: »

I opened DFA website, it mentioned that:
# If you become ill or need hospital treatment while you’re abroad, you can contact your nearest Irish Embassy or Consulate. We can help you to deal with the situation.

Surely that is only when you are holiday. whereas your case is......

Spooky 2015 wrote: »

Three years ago we moved to Indonesia.

pilly

If he's an Irish citizen he will be looked after in Ireland. All you have to do is get him home and arrive at a hospital.

clintondaly

https://www.dfa.ie/travel/assistance-abroad/sick-or-injured-abroad/

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_abroad/leaving_ireland/diplomatic_supports.html

Possibly either link above may help

Can his family on this side not help you ?

Is he well enough to travel home ?

Kristopherus

pilly wrote: »

If he's an Irish citizen he will be looked after in Ireland. All you have to do is get him home and arrive at a hospital.

Its not that simple. He is outside the residency limits and may have to re-qualify. That may be a major obstacle. Also, as mentioned, relocation costs may be prohibitive. The matter of the OP's nationality may also be a factor. What was her status here before they relocated to Indonesia?

Clarebelly

pilly wrote: »

If he's an Irish citizen he will be looked after in Ireland. All you have to do is get him home and arrive at a hospital.

Hold on a bit there.
Is he a resident of Ireland though?

pilly

Kristopherus wrote: »

Its not that simple. He is outside the residency limits and may have to re-qualify. That may be a major obstacle. Also, as mentioned, relocation costs may be prohibitive. The matter of the OP's nationality may also be a factor. What was her status here before they relocated to Indonesia?

Okay, the wife's status may be a problem for her but an Irish citizen seeking treatment here will not be turned away. I would bet a months wages on it. So if I go travelling for 3 years I'm no longer an Irish citizen? Not true, I'm still a citizen of Ireland.

Tom Mann Centuria

When even OP describes journey as risky I doubt any carrier would knowingly agree to fly her husband, or even if he'd be well enough for standard flight. Left with medical evacuation otherwise which will cost thousands. Then where does he live once initial treatment is finished.

Mrs OBumble

pilly wrote: »

Okay, the wife's status may be a problem for her but an Irish citizen seeking treatment here will not be turned away. I would bet a months wages on it. So if I go travelling for 3 years I'm no longer an Irish citizen? Not true, I'm still a citizen of Ireland.

He will be treated.

But if they cop that hes not ordinarily resident, he will also be presented with a rather large bill.

And a foreign wife and no permanent address will increase the chances that they'll cop.

Kristopherus

pilly wrote: »

Okay, the wife's status may be a problem for her but an Irish citizen seeking treatment here will not be turned away. I would bet a months wages on it. So if I go travelling for 3 years I'm no longer an Irish citizen? Not true, I'm still a citizen of Ireland.

Travelling for 3 yrs is vastly different to going to live in another country for 3 yrs. Iirc Irish citizens lose their entitlements to Irish Health & Welfare services if they return from a non- EU country after more than 2 yrs away.

pilly

Kristopherus wrote: »

Travelling for 3 yrs is vastly different to going to live in another country for 3 yrs. Iirc Irish citizens lose their entitlements to Irish Health & Welfare services if they return from a non- EU country after more than 2 yrs away.

I simply don't believe this. If you arrive at a hospital sick they don't ask where you've been for the last 2 years. Their main priority is, as it should be, to help the ill.

endacl

pilly wrote: »

I simply don't believe this. If you arrive at a hospital sick they don't ask where you've been for the last 2 years. Their main priority is, as it should be, to help the ill.

After treatment though, there will be a substantial bill to be addressed.

pilly

endacl wrote: »

After treatment though, there will be a substantial bill to be addressed.

Entitlement to health services is primarily based on residency and means, rather than on your payment of tax or pay-related social insurance (PRSI). Any person, regardless of nationality, who is accepted by the Health Service Executive (HSE) as being ordinarily resident in Ireland has eligibility to health services. You are ordinarily resident if you are living in Ireland and have lived here, or intend to live here, for at least one year.

As you can see from above if you intend to live here then you're entitled to care.

Either way, there are millions in unpaid medical bills in Ireland. As I've already said the main priority is to treat someone who's very ill.

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Mrs OBumble

Kristopherus wrote: »

Travelling for 3 yrs is vastly different to going to live in another country for 3 yrs. Iirc Irish citizens lose their entitlements to Irish Health & Welfare services if they return from a non- EU country after more than 2 yrs away.

Health and welfare are different.

For an irish citizen to be entitled to health care here at domestic rates, they need to be ordinarily resident. Which can be proved by saying you intend to stay for more than a year.

To get welfare you need to be habitually resident, which is harder to achieve.

cgeaney

As a doctor, He will get looked after in the public hospital system same as anyone else(not ideal ibviously). If there are charges, they wont be significant and are not followed up succesfully. Conor

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Denny_Crane

Get home worry about the rest later. The problem will be getting here, it will be tens of thousands of euro if a standard carrier can't be used.

stargazer 68

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If you are resident that is the charge however he is not so it is a completely different charging structure. He may have an address here - the OP hasn't said. However the hospital will require medical records for his situation and his last procedures which will show an Indonesian address, doctors and a timeline.


He could find himself landed with a huge bill and he will be rigorously chased for it!

Denny_Crane

Dovies wrote: »

If you are resident that is the charge however he is not so it is a completely different charging structure. He may have an address here - the OP hasn't said. However the hospital will require medical records for his situation and his last procedures which will show an Indonesian address, doctors and a timeline.


He could find himself landed with a huge bill and he will be rigorously chased for it!

Better to be chased by twelve than carried by six.

(Okay I kinda shoehorned that phrase into this)

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pilly

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A lot of scaremongering going on this thread and there's just no need for it. Same people will be shouting that we should look after our own before refugees etc. This man is one of our own, what is the problem with him getting medical treatment?

TJJP

pilly wrote: »

Entitlement to health services is primarily based on residency and means, rather than on your payment of tax or pay-related social insurance (PRSI). Any person, regardless of nationality, who is accepted by the Health Service Executive (HSE) as being ordinarily resident in Ireland has eligibility to health services. You are ordinarily resident if you are living in Ireland and have lived here, or intend to live here, for at least one year.

As you can see from above if you intend to live here then you're entitled to care.

Either way, there are millions in unpaid medical bills in Ireland. As I've already said the main priority is to treat someone who's very ill.

That's not what it says. Read it again and stop posting misinformation.

You are ordinarily resident if you are living in Ireland and have lived here, or intend to live here, for at least one year.

pilly

TJJP wrote: »

That's not what it says. Read it again and stop posting misinformation.

You are ordinarily resident if you are living in Ireland and have lived here, or intend to live here, for at least one year.

That's exactly what I posted, what is misinformation about that. I'm sure if OP and her husband are returning here for medical treatment then they do intend to live here for at least one year.

TJJP

You are ordinarily resident if
(1)you are living in Ireland
and
(2)have lived here, or intend to live here, for at least one year.


Irish nationals who have been living outside Ireland

If you come back to live in Ireland and are working or self-employed here or if you intend to stay for a year, then you are ordinarily resident and come under the usual rules.

If you are not in this situation and you have been living and working in another EU/EEA country or Switzerland, your entitlement to health services when you return is decided under the rules applying to EU nationals.

If you have been abroad on a short-term contract, you continue to be regarded as ordinarily resident.

If you have been resident abroad for a period of up to three years but your Local Health Office of the HSE is satisfied that you did not establish an entitlement to health services in any other country, the HSE should regard you as ordinarily resident in Ireland if you require treatment when you return to Ireland. This is so that people who emigrate from Ireland do not lose their health service eligibility on residence grounds before they have a chance to establish eligibility elsewhere. This provision does not apply where someone is covered by EU regulations in another country and, in particular, it would not entitle a person temporarily resident in another EU country to have the HSE extend the European Health Insurance Card beyond the normal period.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/health/health_system/entitlement_to_public_health_services.html



Establishing ordinary residency

If you are coming to live in Ireland or returning here to live, you must satisfy the Health Service Executive (HSE) that you are "ordinarily resident" – that you are living in Ireland and intend to live here for at least one year.

To establish that a person is ordinarily resident the HSE may require:
•Proof of property purchase or rental, including evidence that the property in question is the person's principal residence
•Evidence of transfer of funds, bank accounts, pensions etc.
•A residence permit or visa
•A work permit or visa, statements from employers etc
•In some instances, the signing of an affidavit (a sworn written statement) by the applicant

Any person, regardless of nationality, who is accepted by the HSE as being ordinarily resident in Ireland is entitled to either full eligibility (Category 1, i.e. medical card holders) or limited eligibility (Category 2) for health services.

The fact that a non-EU national has established their eligibility for health services does not automatically mean that their dependants are also eligible. Dependants of non-EU nationals may also have to satisfy the above requirements.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/health/health_system/entitlement_to_public_health_services.html

pilly

Not sure what the point you're trying to make is TJJP but you simply keep reposting the same thing?

A doctor in a post up above says OP will be treated. For me that's enough. There's always someone who thinks they know better though.

TJJP

Super.

I'd just prefer that the OP is fully informed. There is a possibility, albeit slight, that if they come back they may not qualify (will not according to the HSE info) for the first year and they get a huge bill. That needs thinking about.

But you'd prefer to have people in a very difficult situation, on the basis of random web advice, think that if they should just show up here all their problems will be solved.

And since we're on the web and throwing out qualifications, I'm a neurosurgeon, but I'm not sure how that helps the OP.

Mrs OBumble

pilly wrote: »

A doctor in a post up above says OP will be treated. For me that's enough. There's always someone who thinks they know better though.

They will be treated.

But the charging won't be at domestic rates (€75 per night with an annual cap of €300). It will be at international visitor rates, which are a LOT higher and the bill is pursued.

Thoie

pilly wrote: »

Not sure what the point you're trying to make is TJJP but you simply keep reposting the same thing?

A doctor in a post up above says OP will be treated. For me that's enough. There's always someone who thinks they know better though.

He will be treated without an up front payment, and looked after, no doubt about that. The question is what happens afterwards - will he be met with a bill that is higher than the €9k being looked for in Indonesia?

First off there's the cost of repatriation. If he's in a suitable condition to fly economy, with his wife, you're looking at €1,200 minimum. If he needs to fly business or first class you're looking at €4-20k for the flights. Medical evacuation is many many times more than that (I know someone who had to be flown home from somewhere in Europe, and it was over €15k.

Then, in order to establish residency they'd need to quit their jobs in Indonesia, rent somewhere in Ireland for a 12 month lease (paying a deposit in advance, and switch various bank accounts to Ireland). The OP may need to apply for an Irish visa, depending on her current status - spouses don't get an automatic entitlement.

If they do all that then he'll get the treatment he needs for €750, plus the cost of medications afterwards (he probably won't be entitled to a medical card). But he'll have spent a minimum of about €4k, and probably an awful lot more to do it. And remember there's no 100% guarantee that the Irish hospital will be able to cure him.

The OP was asking for advice on returning to Ireland for medical treatment. Given their limited income, this is only cost-effective (for them) if the husband is capable of making a very long journey in economy class seats, and they can drop everything and move to Ireland for at least 12 months - where they'll probably have even less income, as they may not be eligible for social welfare. The OP will need to live somewhere while the husband is in hospital.

The DFA can help make arrangements for medical evacuation, but they don't pay for it, you still need to be able to meet that cost.

From the sounds of things, borrowing the €9k in Indonesia may be a better option, but it's really dependent on what his current health status is.

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Clarebelly

Can you fly on a regular flight while using oxygen?

coylemj

Can't believe people are still posting on this thread. The OP hasn't chipped in one iota of information since her first and only post so what's the point?

pilly

coylemj wrote: »

Can't believe people are still posting on this thread. The OP hasn't chipped in one iota of information since her first and only post so what's the point?

Kind of thought that earlier myself. You're right.

kerry4sam

Thread closed by me.

@OP: Please pm me if your query has not been answered already and you would like this re-opened.

Thanks,
kerry4sam

kerry4sam

Thread re-opened as per pm.

Thanks,
kerry4sam

pilly

I think if OP is looking for advice then they need to come back with some more information. Sorry OP but you need to interact.

Dpg21

pilly wrote: »

Okay, the wife's status may be a problem for her but an Irish citizen seeking treatment here will not be turned away. I would bet a months wages on it. So if I go travelling for 3 years I'm no longer an Irish citizen? Not true, I'm still a citizen of Ireland.

I went travelling for almost 3 years, when I returned I had to apply for habitual residency again

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Fred Swanson

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Spooky 2015

My apologies for not able to come back sooner in Board.ie
Internet connection is not good in where we live.
I did try to contact HSE but I had problem with phone network. I will try again by email.
Clarebelly: I am sure that DFA will not differentiate between Irish moving abroad and Irish travelling abroad, both are still Irish Citizen who are entitled to get assistant from Irish Government when they are in difficulty.
Tom Mann Centuria: Yes, indeed we are in financial difficulty and I do not know how we will cope. I do not know how I will find a place to live during and after the treatment. Perhaps I have to work harder than before.
Clintondaly: Unfortunately, he no longer has family in Ireland. I am the only caregiver for him
I know we are taking a risk by coming back to Ireland because of his current condition but I can not just let him ill without a treatment.
I will try to arrange a wheelchair for him during our flight.
Regarding myself, I lived and worked in Ireland since 2004 until 2014.
We planed to move back to Ireland last year but have to delay it because of his poor health.
My husband and I were Irish tax payer. We paid tax, PRSI and USC. I hope that we will get initial help until I find a job again.
DOvies: Unfortunately, we no longer have address in Ireland. We have to build our life from beginning again once we arrive in Ireland. I do keep my husband's medical record from the Indonesian hospital and I already passed this to the Irish embassy.
Embassy  still does not deal with the most important issue which is my husband. We are going to make a very risky journey, I think it is not much to ask the embassy to liaison with HSE about my husband illness. What is going to happen once we arrive in the hospital? I sent his medical record to the embassy in the hope that they would send it to HSE, then HSE could ask an opinion from a vascular surgeon 
I mean, will it worth a while for him to take a risk of flying 16-18 hours ? Every time I ask this question, the embassy staff always remind me about hospital bill, that we have to pay the full economic cost because my husband has not been residing in Ireland for years ( 2 years 10 month, to be precise). 
I am very upset about this. 

Fred Swanson

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pilly

Okay, now we have further details it's easier to advice. It is a very difficult situation to be in because even if you do get back here and get your husband his treatment how and where will you live? You would need to have some money behind you, enough to live for at least a month before you could get any help. Between that and the flight etc. it would run into the thousands anyway. The benefit to your husbands health in the long term though would probably outweigh this but you have to get some money behind you first.

clintondaly

Start a crowdfund campaign possibly ?

Mrs OBumble

Fred Swanson wrote: »

The embassy are wrong. You should have never given his records to the embassy.

What are they wrong about?

Unless the couple are going to live here for a year, then their advice about the economic cost is correct.

pilly

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

What are they wrong about?

Unless the couple are going to live here for a year, then their advice about the economic cost is correct.

OP has already said they want to come back here to live for good.

kerry4sam

Mod Note:

The OP is having some error issues and unable to reply to this thread. They have been reading and delighted with the responses.
My Next posting below will be a direct copy and paste from the OP they have asked to pass on (today) to inform all of their status.

Thanks,
kerry4sam

kerry4sam

from the OP

My apologies for not able to come back sooner in Board.ie
Internet connection is not good in where we live.
I did try to contact HSE but I had problem with phone network. I will try again by email.
Clarebelly: I am sure that DFA will not differentiate between Irish moving abroad and Irish travelling abroad, both are still Irish Citizen who are entitled to get assistant from Irish Government when they are in difficulty.
Tom Mann Centuria: Yes, indeed we are in financial difficulty and I do not know how we will cope. I do not know how I will find a place to live during and after the treatment. Perhaps I have to work harder than before.
Clintondaly: Unfortunately, he no longer has family in Ireland. I am the only caregiver for him
I know we are taking a risk by coming back to Ireland because of his current condition but I can not just let him ill without a treatment.
I will try to arrange a wheelchair for him during our flight.
Regarding myself, I lived and worked in Ireland since 2004 until 2014.
We planed to move back to Ireland last year but have to delay it because of his poor health.
My husband and I were Irish tax payer. We paid tax, PRSI and USC. I hope that we will get initial help until I find a job again.
DOvies: Unfortunately, we no longer have address in Ireland. We have to build our life from beginning again once we arrive in Ireland. I do keep my husband's medical record from the Indonesian hospital and I already passed this to the Irish embassy.
Embassy still does not deal with the most important issue which is my husband. We are going to make a very risky journey, I think it is not much to ask the embassy to liaison with HSE about my husband illness. What is going to happen once we arrive in the hospital? I sent his medical record to the embassy in the hope that they would send it to HSE, then HSE could ask an opinion from a vascular surgeon
I mean, will it worth a while for him to take a risk of flying 16-18 hours ? Every time I ask this question, the embassy staff always remind me about hospital bill, that we have to pay the full economic cost because my husband has not been residing in Ireland for years ( 2 years 10 month, to be precise). Seem they are trying to discourage us from getting treatment in Ireland.
I am very upset about this.

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kerry4sam

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yeah, just doing what I was asked. They said they are having internet issues & may not have seen the reply was posted.

Thanks though,