Non Irish Qualified Players and the Role of Nucifora

Bridge93

Was mentioned by someone in the Connacht thread that a special thread for this topic may be handy. At least three different threads have been swamped in this discussion in the recent past and it's derailing interesting debates on other matters at hand, most recently the Connacht thread which is page after page of going round in circles.

If mods think it'll be too much of a cluster**** of a thread then close it but I felt it might be handy to collect these debates into one place and leave the rest of the forum for what it was intended.
If a different title is needed work away

CMOTDibbler

I'll kick things off by saying that the NIQ rules seem to have changed over the years from the point where a provincial/positional quota was mooted.

From what I can make out, working backwards from where the NIQs are based positionally and provincially, they appear to be slotted in where internationals leave gaps when on Ireland duty.

That's not completely true across the board, but the exceptions seem to be historical ones. Like Ruan Pienaar for example.

So Leinster have Nacewa and Kirchener because of Kearney(s), FitzGerald (before retirement) and their other back three players who get called up. Jimmy Gopperth was signed to cover for Sexton, but Sexton left and the cover was still needed because of his absence.

There are other examples, but that's the general idea as far as I see it. The push currently seems to be to look around the provinces first before looking overseas. This makes sense because the mad money on offer elsewhere has pretty much priced us out of the market and the only other option that can outweigh the financial motivation is the project player system.

awec

I'm not sure we have been priced out of the market. Sure, we can't splurge on loads of NIQs but Ulster signed Piutau and Coetzee this year so I'm not sure the money argument is a valid one.

As for rotation between the provinces, this will be interesting to keep an eye on. It has rarely happened in the past, I personally have my doubts that it'll happen anywhere near as much as people think. Rugby here is still very parochial, players only seem to move as an absolute last resort so unless the IRFU get more forceful here I don't see a whole lot of change.

aloooof

awec wrote: »

I'm not sure we have been priced out of the market. Sure, we can't splurge on loads of NIQs but Ulster signed Piutau and Coetzee this year so I'm not sure the money argument is a valid one.

As for rotation between the provinces, this will be interesting to keep an eye on. It has rarely happened in the past, I personally have my doubts that it'll happen anywhere near as much as people think. Rugby here is still very parochial, players only seem to move as an absolute last resort so unless the IRFU get more forceful here I don't see a whole lot of change.

On the last point, I'd like to see much more movement between the provinces but I'm inclined to agree that it could rarely happen. Madigan being a case in point, ultimately if the player doesn't want to move to another province, it's not going to happen. But I suppose for every player that doesn't want to move, you have the likes of Felix as a counter-example who really bought into Munster.

CMOTDibbler

awec wrote: »

I'm not sure we have been priced out of the market. Sure, we can't splurge on loads of NIQs but Ulster signed Piutau and Coetzee this year so I'm not sure the money argument is a valid one.

As for rotation between the provinces, this will be interesting to keep an eye on. It has rarely happened in the past, I personally have my doubts that it'll happen anywhere near as much as people think. Rugby here is still very parochial, players only seem to move as an absolute last resort so unless the IRFU get more forceful here I don't see a whole lot of change.

I've no idea what sort of wedge Piutau and Coetzee are on, but whatever it is, they may well be attracted elsewhere for more. There are no guarantees with NIQs.

There's been a fair bit of movement around the provinces in recent years. Leinster have been predominantly the providers with the likes of Jones, Conway and Crosbie heading to Munster and Kelleher, Roux, JHW etc. heading west. Connacht have sent a few east and south as well, leaving Ulster looking south with some degree of envy.

awec

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I've no idea what sort of wedge Piutau and Coetzee are on, but whatever it is, they may well be attracted elsewhere for more. There are no guarantees with NIQs.

There's been a fair bit of movement around the provinces in recent years. Leinster have been predominantly the providers with the likes of Jones, Conway and Crosbie heading to Munster and Kelleher, Roux, JHW etc. heading west. Connacht have sent a few east and south as well, leaving Ulster looking south with some degree of envy.

Yea but it has been guys moving as their last resort, who had no real hope of ever making it at Leinster. There are exceptions like Jones, but by and large these are guys who knew who was in front of them and what was coming behind them and they'd little hope.

Roux was a project player so I would say he wouldn't be subject to the usual parochial nature of it.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

I'm not sure we have been priced out of the market. Sure, we can't splurge on loads of NIQs but Ulster signed Piutau and Coetzee this year so I'm not sure the money argument is a valid one.

As for rotation between the provinces, this will be interesting to keep an eye on. It has rarely happened in the past, I personally have my doubts that it'll happen anywhere near as much as people think. Rugby here is still very parochial, players only seem to move as an absolute last resort so unless the IRFU get more forceful here I don't see a whole lot of change.

I don't think anyone expects huge movements between provinces tbh. And if the provinces are producing a decent amount of their own talent (which is the plan) we shouldn't need that anyway. A few here and a few there would suffice. Like Arnold moving from Ulster due to the back log of centres there. I'd say we'll see more Academy guys moving than anything else too.

As for the money argument, it is an issue. But that's not to say we can't attract the talent. It's just harder than it was is all.

I don't know whether the thread should encompass the full role that Nucifora has because all the decisions on incoming players forms a part of a much wider plan.....

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Yea but it has been guys moving as their last resort, who had no real hope of ever making it at Leinster. There are exceptions like Jones, but by and large these are guys who knew who was in front of them and what was coming behind them and they'd little hope.

Roux was a project player so I would say he wouldn't be subject to the usual parochial nature of it.

Cooney and Roux both moved on loan first and Leinster wanted to keep both.

Cian Kelleher just moved from Leinster to Connacht to the great dismay of Leinster coaches.

I don't think Connacht would have been too happy when Rodney told them he was moving to Ulster (even if Conor Carey may be, ironically, a pretty good replacement).

The players will move if they get a good offer. Now it may be that there are certain provinces who don't go after those sorts of moves for other reasons which make it unlikely to happen very often, but the players have careers to run and are very pragmatic.

awec

Arnold, Ah You, one is a granny-ruler and the other a project so again not subject to the usual parochial issues.

Buer

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I've no idea what sort of wedge Piutau and Coetzee are on, but whatever it is, they may well be attracted elsewhere for more. There are no guarantees with NIQs.

Piutau is reportedly among the top 10 highest paid players in the world now. Ulster have had serious money for their NIQ players in recent years.

Pienaar, Piutau and Coetzee would command a massive chunk between them.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Arnold, Ah You, one is a granny-ruler and the other a project so again not subject to the usual parochial issues.

So you think it's the players themselves who are being parochial? Not sure where that's been evidenced. I think it's much more likely the parochial people are on the other end of these potential transactions.

Andrew Conway and Felix Jones both were wanted by Leinster when they left. Cooney was wanted by Leinster when he left.

awec

So why is Madigan in France? Why is Scholes in Scotland?

I think the semi-representative nature of our provinces makes the players parochial, yes.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

So why is Madigan in France? Why is Scholes in Scotland?

I think the semi-representative nature of our provinces makes the players parochial, yes.

Madigan is in France because Bordeaux have that Canal+ money.

Was Rory Scholes offered anything in Ireland? Don't just say "Of course he was, it would be stupid if he wasn't," things don't always work out how it looks like they should.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So you think it's the players themselves who are being parochial? Not sure where that's been evidenced. I think it's much more likely the parochial people are on the other end of these potential transactions.

Andrew Conway and Felix Jones both were wanted by Leinster when they left. Cooney was wanted by Leinster when he left.

Wanted by Leinster for what though? To sit on the bench? To be squad cover?

Being "wanted" doesn't really mean anything.

CMOTDibbler

awec wrote: »

So why is Madigan in France? Why is Scholes in Scotland?

I think the semi-representative nature of our provinces makes the players parochial, yes.

You're ignoring the likes of Andrew Conway, Felix Jones, John Cooney and Cian Kelleher. All of whom were wanted in Leinster and all of whom left. If we're tallking about parochilaism, then the last place a Leinster player would want to go is Munster. :pac:

You're assuming that players won't go to Ulster because they don't want to go. Is it possible that Ulster don't want them and aren't putting the effort in to attract them?

Cooney would have been a great signing for Ulster. Yet off he went to Connacht. On loan at first, but he's ended up staying there.

awec

I don't want to talk about Ulster cause we all know where that will end up. I am talking generally, movement between provinces is not all that common outside of guys who know they have no real chance of a good career at their home province.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Wanted by Leinster for what though? To sit on the bench? To be squad cover?

Being "wanted" doesn't really mean anything.

Andrew Conway started for Leinster in the Challenge Cup final the season he left (although he'd already announced he was leaving). Given Darragh Fanning was starting in Europe soon after I think it's clear he would have gotten decent gametime.

Felix Jones came out of the academy in a different sort of era. Himself and Fionn Carr were both talented and Leinster wanted both but couldn't keep both. They chose Jones and Carr went off to Connacht. Then Jones left for Munster because he wasn't content to sit behind Kearney. Cheika was furious because he saw it as particularly wasteful given he thought both could have been Leinster players. At the time Jones was pretty excellent, MOTM in the Churchill Cup final. But he went with the intention of being a starter at Munster (albeit then receiving very bad injuries).

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

So why is Madigan in France? Why is Scholes in Scotland?

I think the semi-representative nature of our provinces makes the players parochial, yes.

There's always going to be an element of parochialism with some players. There won't be with others. We've seen plenty of proof of that. Conway was similar to Madigan in that he wanted more first team game time than Leinster were going to be able to offer. Both moved. One was happy to move within Ireland while the other wasn't. We'll always see examples of both.

And established players are hardly going to move really are they? Why would they? They can't get more money and they can't get any more established? So your point on who is most likely to move is a pretty obvious ones. The guys who see a better future for themselves if they do. They wouldn't move otherwise.

errlloyd

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

If we're tallking about parochilaism, then the last place a Leinster player would want to go is Munster. :pac:

I'm not sure about this anymore, I agree with AWEC about the reluctance of people in the Republic to move to Belfast - anecdotally I see it all the time in other professional areas (my background was accounting, I do something different now).

I also think a surprising amount of Leinster fans have a soft spot for Munster. Steve Crosbie is one example, you might think he was Leinster through and through because he went to a Leinster school, club and academy. But his dad is a very passionate Munster fan, and I am sure Steve grew up with aspirations of either.

CMOTDibbler

errlloyd wrote: »

I'm not sure about this anymore, I agree with AWEC about the reluctance of people in the Republic to move to Belfast - anecdotally I see it all the time in other professional areas (my background was accounting, I do something different now).

I also think a surprising amount of Leinster fans have a soft spot for Munster. Steve Crosbie is one example, you might think he was Leinster through and through because he went to a Leinster school, club and academy. But his dad is a very passionate Munster fan, and I am sure Steve grew up with aspirations of either.

I was tongue in cheek. I thought that was obvious?

Steve Crosbie's family are from Cork (on his father's side), so there's an obvious connection there. But I didn't use him as an example because he was let go after completing his three years in the Leinster Academy and went to NZ from where he was picked up by Munster.

Bridge93

Maybe I'm alone but I feel I would rather go to Belfast than Limerick. I really like Galway but again I think I would rather head north. I'm probably different though.

molloyjh

Bridge93 wrote: »

Maybe I'm alone but I feel I would rather go to Belfast than Limerick. I really like Galway but again I think I would rather head north. I'm probably different though.

I'm afraid you are different!

There's no doubt that getting guys to move to Belfast is a tougher ask than getting them to move to Limerick or Galway. But I do think it can be done.

CMOTDibbler

awec wrote: »

I don't want to talk about Ulster cause we all know where that will end up. I am talking generally, movement between provinces is not all that common outside of guys who know they have no real chance of a good career at their home province.

You've been given examples of players who moved despite there being good prospects for them at their home province. Cian Kelleher would be the right age to slot in behind Rob Kearney for example and would have got meaningful gametime during international windows in the meantime. Andrew Conway likewise. Jack Conan is staying at Leinster (hopefully for the long term), even though he's behind the bullet-proof Jamie Heaslip. I can't imagine that he's not had offers from the three other provinces (though in Ulster's case, who knows?).

Bridge93

molloyjh wrote: »

I'm afraid you are different!

There's no doubt that getting guys to move to Belfast is a tougher ask than getting them to move to Limerick or Galway. But I do think it can be done.

Old ancestral roots clouding my judgement so!

thomond2006

Are Ulster players (both centrally contracted to IRFU and not) paid in sterling? If so, it's going to be more difficult to convince ROI based players to move to Belfast compared to a year or two ago.

irishbucsfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

Are Ulster players (both centrally contracted to IRFU and not) paid in sterling? If so, it's going to be more difficult to convince ROI based players to move to Belfast.

Yes. Right now it'd make it tougher but Sterling has been strong for years before this summer.

CMOTDibbler

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes. Right now it'd make it tougher but Sterling has been strong for years before this summer.

Cost of living would be a bit lower too I'd imagine.

Podge_irl

awec wrote: »

I don't want to talk about Ulster cause we all know where that will end up. I am talking generally, movement between provinces is not all that common outside of guys who know they have no real chance of a good career at their home province.

I think you're over-egging it slightly but I agree with the general point.

Conway would have been in line for game time at Leinster but that's really a degree of hindsight being brought to bear. All of them moved while they were far from being established players at Leinster and with internationals ahead of them in the pecking order. I think they had a chance of a good career at their home province, but the moves would have been seen to accelerate that chance by quite a lot.

pickarooney

I think the average to bad experiences of Sexton, Madigan, Moore and Hanrahan are probably making a lot of players think twice about moving abroad and making Nucifora's job easier.

awec

awec wrote: »

I don't want to talk about Ulster cause we all know where that will end up. I am talking generally, movement between provinces is not all that common outside of guys who know they have no real chance of a good career at their home province.

Good. Why would or should a guy with a chance of making it at his home province move?

Zzippy

pickarooney wrote: »

I think the average to bad experiences of Sexton, Madigan, Moore and Hanrahan are probably making a lot of players think twice about moving abroad and making Nucifora's job easier.

You also have guys like Steenson who have been a great success and had a successful career, albeit without international recognition. James Hart is making a name for himself too, and Farrell. The players above were always in/around international standard, there are plenty of players who may not reach that level but could make a perfectly acceptable and possibly more lucrative living abroad.

CMOTDibbler

Zzippy wrote: »

You also have guys like Steenson who have been a great success and had a successful career, albeit without international recognition. James Hart is making a name for himself too, and Farrell. The players above were always in/around international standard, there are plenty of players who may not reach that level but could make a perfectly acceptable and possibly more lucrative living abroad.

Tom Hayes, James Coughlan and Trevor Brennan also spring to mind.

Buer

I can't wait to see Chris Farrell back in this country. He has really made the most of things. Gone to a high standard league and managed 70 appearances for Grenoble in 3 years which will be close to 80 by the end of this season.

Easy to forget that he's still only 23 and younger than guys like McCloskey.

errlloyd

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I was tongue in cheek. I thought that was obvious?

Oh sorry, I actually didn't think that was obvious. I know lots of casual fans who think Leinster and Munster are the equivalent of the old firm!

pickarooney

Zzippy wrote: »

You also have guys like Steenson who have been a great success and had a successful career, albeit without international recognition. James Hart is making a name for himself too, and Farrell. The players above were always in/around international standard, there are plenty of players who may not reach that level but could make a perfectly acceptable and possibly more lucrative living abroad.

I don't really agree about Hart. Leinster dumped him so he hadn't much choice. He's French too, so didn't have to acclimatise. And he's only had one good season.

jacothelad

thomond2006 wrote: »

Are Ulster players (both centrally contracted to IRFU and not) paid in sterling? If so, it's going to be more difficult to convince ROI based players to move to Belfast compared to a year or two ago.

Not if they were paid in Euro.

jacothelad

Maliyah Delightful Sunscreen wrote: »

Good. Why would or should a guy with a chance of making it at his home province move?

You would need to ask Cronin, Henshaw, Noddy Jones et al.

jm08

jacothelad wrote: »

Not if they were paid in Euro.

Handy that IRFU, Kingspan & Bank of Ireland operate in the Euro zone!

awec

jm08 wrote: »

Handy that IRFU, Kingspan & Bank of Ireland operate in the Euro zone!

Rory's on the dollars though.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

Rory's on the dollars though.

Ain't nobody wants to touch NI Pounds!

pickarooney

Pay them in bitcoins.

jacothelad

jacothelad wrote: »

You would need to ask Cronin, Henshaw, Noddy Jones et al.

Cronin didn't move to Leinster from his home province.

Henshaw is really the exception, there's basically no other current Irish internationals I can think of who have moved province like that. It seems there were some personal reasons involved.

CMOTDibbler

Maliyah Delightful Sunscreen wrote: »

Cronin didn't move to Leinster from his home province.

Henshaw is really the exception, there's basically no other current Irish internationals I can think of who have moved province like that. It seems there were some personal reasons involved.

And Henshaw is technically Leinster born and bred

hogandrew

Am I right in think it's the case that a province cannot outbid another province for one of their players or is that just on centrally contracted players?

Say Ulster felt Andrew Porter would be first choice for them, can they offer a contract to match or are they obliged not to offer more than Leinster?

errlloyd

hogandrew wrote: »

Am I right in think it's the case that a province cannot outbid another province for one of their players or is that just on centrally contracted players?

Say Ulster felt Andrew Porter would be first choice for them, can they offer a contract to match or are they obliged not to offer more than Leinster?

I believe it is complicated, the above is mostly true but their are caveats.

A province can offer an upgraded contract - Connacht were able to offer Kelleher and Dillane full contracts, when Leinster and Munster were only offering them academy contracts. While that isn't really outbidding them, it does inherently mean they move for pay.

A province can price match a foreign bid for another province's player. So for example, say Hanrahan was on 200k in Munster (guess), Leinster can only offer him 200k, but suppose Northampton offer him 400k, and Munster were only willing to stretch to 300k, Leinster could offer 400k. Effectively outbidding Munster.

Finally I have no idea how private top ups are regarded (there are rumours that donors like Denis O'Brien, Jp McManus and Rory McIlroy have all participated in such activities). I assume that Denis O Brien could offer to top up a contract if a player moves province and the actual provincial salary would not be effected.

stephen_n

awec wrote: »

I don't want to talk about Ulster cause we all know where that will end up. I am talking generally, movement between provinces is not all that common outside of guys who know they have no real chance of a good career at their home province.

If you are going to be first choice at your home province, why would you move? Your argument makes no sense, the only players who will ever move are the ones that are on the edges of first team action. There is no incentive for the player or the province for them to move. Just because a player isn't good enough to break the first team at one province, simply because there are too many very good players in the same position. Doesn't mean he isn't first team material elsewhere. Conan is a prime example of it and you would give your left nut to get him.

Rigor Mortis

The motivations for moving

Step up to what is perceived as a better team - quite a few examples over the years
Move to get more game time - plenty of examples
Move to more money - system mitigates against this.
Move because of disagreement with current province - a few examples

If you look at all of the leagues, there is very little movement of top players between top clubs within the same league (France being the notable exception). The movement happens with younger players and second string players. That has always happened here and is becoming more common.

awec

stephen_n wrote: »

If you are going to be first choice at your home province, why would you move? Your argument makes no sense, the only players who will ever move are the ones that are on the edges of first team action. There is no incentive for the player or the province for them to move. Just because a player isn't good enough to break the first team at one province, simply because there are too many very good players in the same position. Doesn't mean he isn't first team material elsewhere. Conan is a prime example of it and you would give your left nut to get him.

I am not arguing for first choice, I am arguing for fringe players. The likes of Jordi Murphy for example, he'll never be a first choice player for Leinster but I bet he'd prefer to be 2nd or 3rd choice at Leinster than be first choice elsewhere.

Darren Cave another example, won't make a first choice Ulster team anymore, has a few players ahead of him but I bet he'd rather stay at Ulster than go play somewhere else where he'd get lots more gametime.

errlloyd

awec wrote: »

I am not arguing for first choice, I am arguing for fringe players. The likes of Jordi Murphy for example, he'll never be a first choice player for Leinster but I bet he'd prefer to be 2nd or 3rd choice at Leinster than be first choice elsewhere.

Ah here. He started via the all blacks in Chicago ahead of VDF. He has plenty of reasons to believe he's a starting backrow when fit, and even if he isn't one or two of the lads ahead of him has a bad injury profile so he will get plenty of gametime. Conan, Leavy, Ruddock. They're the lads who really should be looking elsewhere, even if I wouldn't want to lose any of them.

awec

errlloyd wrote: »

I believe it is complicated, the above is mostly true but their are caveats.

A province can offer an upgraded contract - Connacht were able to offer Kelleher and Dillane full contracts, when Leinster and Munster were only offering them academy contracts. While that isn't really outbidding them, it does inherently mean they move for pay.

A province can price match a foreign bid for another province's player. So for example, say Hanrahan was on 200k in Munster (guess), Leinster can only offer him 200k, but suppose Northampton offer him 400k, and Munster were only willing to stretch to 300k, Leinster could offer 400k. Effectively outbidding Munster.

Finally I have no idea how private top ups are regarded (there are rumours that donors like Denis O'Brien, Jp McManus and Rory McIlroy have all participated in such activities). I assume that Denis O Brien could offer to top up a contract if a player moves province and the actual provincial salary would not be effected.

I think in pure money terms, on the same type of contract, they cannot compete, e.g. Leinster can't offer 100k more.

But they can get around that, for example offering better player endorsements from sponsors etc.

awec

errlloyd wrote: »

Ah here. He started via the all blacks in Chicago ahead of VDF. He has plenty of reasons to believe he's a starting backrow when fit, and even if he isn't one or two of the lads ahead of him has a bad injury profile so he will get plenty of gametime. Conan, Leavy, Ruddock. They're the lads who really should be looking elsewhere, even if I wouldn't want to lose any of them.

Yes maybe they are better examples, but I bet they'd all prefer to stay and sit on the bench / in the stands, filling in when the big players are away than move.