Whats the future of Golf?

Mantis Toboggan

Indoor golf? Surely the way forward in this country given how wet our winters are.

Also walking the course will be a thing of the past, have you seen those one man carts people have? Fantastic! In 15 years we'll be wondering why we ever walked the entire course just to hit few balls. Rounds therefore would be 2 - 2.5 hours.

CMOTDibbler

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Indoor golf? Surely the way forward in this country given how wet our winters are.

Also walking the course will be a thing of the past, have you seen those one man carts people have? Fantastic! In 15 years we'll be wondering why we ever walked the entire course just to hit few balls. Rounds therefore would be 2 - 2.5 hours.

We really don't have it bad here weather-wise. Plenty of golfers in the US can't play golf for months because of snow and ice. It's not all Florida. On the continent, dry weather can be as much of a problem. Rough dies down to nothing and the grass; although watered, is a thin layer sitting on top of dry topsoil.

Sometimes the wet weather can have the same effect here. Last winter being an example. But this year, I've been able to play every week from October on. And it looks pretty good for this weekend too.

As for motorised carts. No, just no. I certainly wouldn't use them. Buggy rental is cheap in my club and virtually never used by the members.

BigChap1759

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

We really don't have it bad here weather-wise. Plenty of golfers in the US can't play golf for months because of snow and ice. It's not all Florida. On the continent, dry weather can be as much of a problem. Rough dies down to nothing and the grass; although watered, is a thin layer sitting on top of dry topsoil.

Sometimes the wet weather can have the same effect here. Last winter being an example. But this year, I've been able to play every week from October on. And it looks pretty good for this weekend too.

As for motorised carts. No, just no. I certainly wouldn't use them. Buggy rental is cheap in my club and virtually never used by the members.

Spot on - try playing in the west of Scotland over the winter, temporary greens for 4/5 months of the year and mats on many also for the same period. The weather here is very dry/mild by comparison!

The whole point is that, indoor golf, is not golf! If you want to hit a few balls go to the range.

Mantis Toboggan

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

We really don't have it bad here weather-wise. Plenty of golfers in the US can't play golf for months because of snow and ice. It's not all Florida. On the continent, dry weather can be as much of a problem. Rough dies down to nothing and the grass; although watered, is a thin layer sitting on top of dry topsoil.

Sometimes the wet weather can have the same effect here. Last winter being an example. But this year, I've been able to play every week from October on. And it looks pretty good for this weekend too.

As for motorised carts. No, just no. I certainly wouldn't use them. Buggy rental is cheap in my club and virtually never used by the members.

No chance, we must be one of the wettest countries in Europe, in my course winter rules will be in place for 6 months, that's just ridiculous.

Also indoor golf will mean teeing off at any time. Right now there's a 3.5 hour window in which to get a full round in making very very hard to even get a game.

Other places might have it worse but if the technology is there why should we settle for 6 months of winter rules? Lots of tennis clubs have been transformed recently with indoor facilities.

Mantis Toboggan

BigChap1759 wrote: »

Spot on - try playing in the west of Scotland over the winter, temporary greens for 4/5 months of the year and mats on many also for the same period. The weather here is very dry/mild by comparison!

The whole point is that, indoor golf, is not golf! If you want to hit a few balls go to the range.

Exactly, would golf in Scotland in winter not improve if it wasn't always soaking wet?

CMOTDibbler

Tyson Fury wrote: »

No chance, we must be one of the wettest countries in Europe, in my course winter rules will be in place for 6 months, that's just ridiculous.

Also indoor golf will mean teeing off at any time. Right now there's a 3.5 hour window in which to get a full round in making very very hard to even get a game.

Other places might have it worse but if the technology is there why should we settle for 6 months of winter rules? Lots of tennis clubs have been transformed recently with indoor facilities.

The best you could hope for in terms of indoor golf is an indoor driving range. Which in terms of covered bays, we already have.

The amount of covered area you'd need just to have one hole is massive. The average golf course is well over 100 acres now.

And what's wrong with winter rules? I know they vary, but at my club it's lift clean and place (fairways) and lift clean and drop (rough) playing off forward tees. It's still golf and still a test.

BigChap1759

Tyson Fury wrote: »

No chance, we must be one of the wettest countries in Europe, in my course winter rules will be in place for 6 months, that's just ridiculous.

Also indoor golf will mean teeing off at any time. Right now there's a 3.5 hour window in which to get a full round in making very very hard to even get a game.

Other places might have it worse but if the technology is there why should we settle for 6 months of winter rules? Lots of tennis clubs have been transformed recently with indoor facilities.

Where exactly "indoors" do you think people could play??

mike12

Golf and cycling have almost the exact same target audience.
Most cyclists are middle age office workers.

Don't think we will loose any courses from now on. More green fees will come into the market as the economy improves.

Keano

This thread does have a place but some posts have been deleted. Don't pick at a post because of spelling or grammar, it's not nice.

Mantis Toboggan

BigChap1759 wrote: »

Where exactly "indoors" do you think people could play??

What do you mean?

This is future golf thread so it's mostly nonsense and just thoughts, I haven't got the patent for it or anything. I do think indoor golf would improve the participation rate. Weather is a deterrent to sports in this country.

Has anyone been to the indoor water park in Berlin? It's fantastic. Friend of mine was there last week, it's freezing outside but the park was packed! Who would have thought, a water park in winter!

ligerdub

BigChap1759 wrote: »

Spot on - try playing in the west of Scotland over the winter, temporary greens for 4/5 months of the year and mats on many also for the same period. The weather here is very dry/mild by comparison!

The whole point is that, indoor golf, is not golf! If you want to hit a few balls go to the range.

Scotland is the country that made the game what it is. The difference there is that they generally play on links courses, and was done so because they could also play in winter.

I played over in Scotland in early 2015. The weather was atrocious for two days. The course, including the greens, even after the worst of the rain, was drained completely within about 5 minutes.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

BigChap1759

ligerdub wrote: »

Scotland is the country that made the game what it is. The difference there is that they generally play on links courses, and was done so because they could also play in winter.

I played over in Scotland in early 2015. The weather was atrocious for two days. The course, including the greens, even after the worst of the rain, was drained completely within about 5 minutes.

Sorry, I'm from Scotland and the above statement is nonsense - if you're a member of a parkland course in the west of Scotland, you are on winter greens for 4/5 months of the year.

BigChap1759

Tyson Fury wrote: »

What do you mean?

This is future golf thread so it's mostly nonsense and just thoughts, I haven't got the patent for it or anything. I do think indoor golf would improve the participation rate. Weather is a deterrent to sports in this country.

Has anyone been to the indoor water park in Berlin? It's fantastic. Friend of mine was there last week, it's freezing outside but the park was packed! Who would have thought, a water park in winter!

So you're talking about building a structure big enough to fit a golf course inside?

I'm not sure the economics of that would work here - fair enough you get it in Japan where courses are at a premium due to shortage of land, or the middle east where cost is irrelevant in a lot of cases.

Who would rather play indoors during the summer 6 months of the year??

Roger_007

I can't see a good future for golf while we have the number of clubs that we have. There are just too many. I play a lot of opens around the country and when you talk to members, they all have the same story: ageing membership and difficulty getting new members. Most clubs have discounted annual subs for older members and consequently their income is falling while costs are rising.
If clubs are not generating enough income to maintain their courses properly they will find it even more difficult to attract new members, green fees, societies etc. Unless some clubs agree to merge with neighbouring clubs, the outlook is not rosy.

mike12

Roger_007 wrote: »

I can't see a good future for golf while we have the number of clubs that we have. There are just too many. I play a lot of opens around the country and when you talk to members, they all have the same story: ageing membership and difficulty getting new members. Most clubs have discounted annual subs for older members and consequently their income is falling while costs are rising.
If clubs are not generating enough income to maintain their courses properly they will find it even more difficult to attract new members, green fees, societies etc. Unless some clubs agree to merge with neighbouring clubs, the outlook is not rosy.

There was nothing but doom and gloom from 2008 when everyone was saying we had too many courses and we would loose 40 or 50 of them.
We lost very few. If there wasn't a big demand there would be no increase in price or talk of joining fees coming back.
Numbers of members will continue to grow but we will see more guys moving clubs rather than spending years at one.

ligerdub

BigChap1759 wrote: »

Sorry, I'm from Scotland and the above statement is nonsense - if you're a member of a parkland course in the west of Scotland, you are on winter greens for 4/5 months of the year.

But the origins are centred around links though? I mean a parkland course is going to be chewed up in that climate. I never said a parkland would be suitable for this time of year.

Seve OB

mike12 wrote: »

There was nothing but doom and gloom from 2008 when everyone was saying we had too many courses and we would loose 40 or 50 of them.
We lost very few. If there wasn't a big demand there would be no increase in price or talk of joining fees coming back.
Numbers of members will continue to grow but we will see more guys moving clubs rather than spending years at one.

there were to many golf courses. probably still are. still many clubs in trouble.

so many clubs as far from full membership and with no joining fees, it makes it easy for players to move around and that's not good for clubs
also cheap golf makes it good for casual golf without needing to join clubs. again not good for clubs
years ago, if you weren't in a club, you could pay and play at some public courses, but you would be doing well to get out at a members club. now you can play those members clubs for little money so hence numbers dropping off.

if members do continue to grow and clubs reach or approach capacity, then there wont be as much opportunity for non members to get in some cheap golf at good courses, which might in turn force them to commit and join a club. I see that as a good thing, but I'm sure others will see that as a bad thing

close down a few more courses, and get those members to fill up other clubs would mean sadness on one hand, but long term survival on the other...

Ollieboy

Seve OB wrote: »

there were to many golf courses. probably still are. still many clubs in trouble.

so many clubs as far from full membership and with no joining fees, it makes it easy for players to move around and that's not good for clubs
also cheap golf makes it good for casual golf without needing to join clubs. again not good for clubs
years ago, if you weren't in a club, you could pay and play at some public courses, but you would be doing well to get out at a members club. now you can play those members clubs for little money so hence numbers dropping off.

if members do continue to grow and clubs reach or approach capacity, then there wont be as much opportunity for non members to get in some cheap golf at good courses, which might in turn force them to commit and join a club. I see that as a good thing, but I'm sure others will see that as a bad thing

close down a few more courses, and get those members to fill up other clubs would mean sadness on one hand, but long term survival on the other...

100% agree. A lot of clubs are still been support by banks/members etc. The only reasons the banks didn't force them out of business is due to some income was better then no income when they couldn't sell the assets. That situation is now changing as we saw with Hollystown who sold 9 holes. So the banks will now force some of the other clubs to sell up and close. It takes a lot of green fees to match the money on offer from developers. I know two clubs in this situation at the moment and I believe both will be gone by the end of next summer as we are getting a lot of there members at the moment due to the current members been aware of the issues.

Also we have 400 course with 160k active members, that's 400 members per club and most clubs need about 800 to operate correctly and offer the proper service/product. Even at the peak we only had 280k members in Ireland. So we need to close a lot of clubs to let the other clubs grow and let them spend money on maintaining and developing there products which will be better in the long run for golf in Ireland and the players.

Kingswood Rover

Hi all a couple of points, People fight very hard to keep their clubs going and very often surviving by the skin of their teeth for years through sheer hard work and bloodymindedness, this is the reason why relatively few have closed considering the what was a extremely difficult number of years. Clubs do not need 800 members to operate "correctly" IMO. if you look at the membership totals of the clubs in Ireland there are a lot of them operating with less than 200 members, some with less than a hundred. Golf is a game for life and at last it seems that the GUI and CGI are pushing this line. Golf also is at a disadvantage when compared to the other popular sports in the country in that a lot of people help out managing coaching training etc with their clubs when their playing days are over and kids come along. In golf your playing days are not over till you are either extremely ill, dead or quit. Of course there are exceptions in every club with members being particularly passionate about coaching their youth but that natural progression does not happen to the same degree in golf when compared to GAA, football, Rugby etc as we are all still playing. To increase the numbers playing Golf, we have to at least strive to make it as accessible for people with no natural ties to the game as other sports, i think we are starting to move along this path but we have a long road ahead.
Just on a general point another thing that does not make sense to me is the way sports facilities are duplicated across multiple sites in a small area for different sports. In the town i live in, like many others we have a GAA club, football club, boxing club, badminton club, pitch and putt club all with ok facilities but none really outstanding. It would make more sense if the town and every town had a sports club that catered for all sports, (economies of scale and all that,) now if these clubs had 30 acres on the edge of town for their 9 hole golf club as well as their 10 acres for the GAA, football, Rugby pitches obviously, well wouldn't that be something. The Provincial Towns trophy might actually be just that and playing for golf for this super sports club at whatever age, would seen as no different than playing GAA, football, Rugby, Chess, Badminton etc.

PARlance

Seve OB wrote: »

there were to many golf courses. probably still are. still many clubs in trouble.

so many clubs as far from full membership and with no joining fees, it makes it easy for players to move around and that's not good for clubs
also cheap golf makes it good for casual golf without needing to join clubs. again not good for clubs
years ago, if you weren't in a club, you could pay and play at some public courses, but you would be doing well to get out at a members club. now you can play those members clubs for little money so hence numbers dropping off.

if members do continue to grow and clubs reach or approach capacity, then there wont be as much opportunity for non members to get in some cheap golf at good courses, which might in turn force them to commit and join a club. I see that as a good thing, but I'm sure others will see that as a bad thing

close down a few more courses, and get those members to fill up other clubs would mean sadness on one hand, but long term survival on the other...

Where are we getting "if membership continues to grow" from? The GUI just announced they've lost 50,000 members in the past 8 years. It's 70,000 in the last decade iirc. That's somewhere between a 25-30% drop.

I agree that they'll be a lot more courses to close. The recession has deflected from the real problem, debt is a problem but it's deaths that will dramatically change things. That's a bit morbid but the harsh reality is that the golfing population is aging dramatically (average age jumped from 48 to 63 from 2009 to 2014 in the UK). In 10-20 years the majority of golfers playing today won't be playing during to (very) old age or death. They just aren't being replaced.

The future of golf will be its past imo. In 20 years we'll have a landscape more like the 1980's where there was half the amount of courses, half the golfers and it was a sport for the minority... that minority used to be the wealthy, in future it'll be the retirees imo. That might seem dramatic but the real drama happened in the 90's and 00's.

thejourney

Is it possible to privatise a golf club by selling it and run it like business. Perhaps thats the future. Too many members making bad decisions because of emotional connections to a tree, clubhouse, practice area

Like not building a driving range because it attracts the wrong crowd

No doing private dinners on Sunday as it attracts families who make to much noise

Greens fees only between open hours etc

No scoieties welcome

thejourney

PARlance wrote: »

Where are we getting "if membership continues to grow" from? The GUI just announced they've lost 50,000 members in the past 8 years. It's 70,000 in the last decade iirc. That's somewhere between a 25-30% drop.

I agree that they'll be a lot more courses to close. The recession has deflected from the real problem, debt is a problem but it's deaths that will dramatically change things. That's a bit morbid but the harsh reality is that the golfing population is aging dramatically (average age jumped from 48 to 63 from 2009 to 2014 in the UK). In 10-20 years the majority of golfers playing today won't be playing during to (very) old age or death. They just aren't being replaced.

The future of golf will be its past imo. In 20 years we'll have a landscape more like the 1980's where there was half the amount of courses, half the golfers and it was a sport for the minority... that minority used to be the wealthy, in future it'll be the retirees imo. That might seem dramatic but the real drama happened in the 90's and 00's.

I'd say the GAA lost even more. People forced to leave Ireland. 05 was the biggest year for golf worldwide in terms of sales in america.

Lots of juniors leaving as they fail to go pro. Every junior wants to be Pro and when they fail they leave.

Father leaves club then the wife and sons follow as natural cause.

But the fun thing is this lads.....If you really look at the stats I'd say that the reason the GUI has 50,000 less members is because not every one is a member of 2 or more clubs any more....

I was a member of 3 clubs a one point:eek:

How many clubs were you a member? Think

PARlance

thejourney wrote: »

I'd say the GAA lost even more. People forced to leave Ireland. 05 was the biggest year for golf worldwide in terms of sales in america.

Lots of juniors leaving as they fail to go pro. Every junior wants to be Pro and when they fail they leave.

Father leaves club then the wife and sons follow as natural cause.

But the fun thing is this lads.....If you really look at the stats I'd say that the reason the GUI has 50,000 less members is because not every one is a member of 2 or more clubs any more....

I was a member of 3 clubs a one point:eek:

How many clubs were you a member? Think

GAA clubs are not businesses, most golf courses are.

golfer555

We'll never see golf membership numbers like in the mid 00's ever again. The country was full of false money then. Nowadays household budgets are much tighter, if there's any hint of financial difficulty the €1,000 - €1,500 membership stops and gets replaced with 20 x €25 green fees = €500.

Open comps and green fee websites are easy ways of obtaining these rounds, even at weekends. If you're available midweek and prepared to play early you can avail of some great courses for as little as €15. Right or wrong that's the way it is now and people have got used to it. Other factors affecting golf:

- Men have to be with the family more these days, quite often they don't have the time to play 18 holes.

- 12 holes or 2.5 hours is the perfect amount of time to play i.e. be away from home for 3 hours. 9 hole comps need to be made much more common.

- Other sports are competing golf - Cycling as mentioned numerous times, marathon running, triathlons, ironman events, hill walking, water sports and other special interest sports which hardly existed in Ireland 15 years ago. All of which are hammering the potential golf market.

- Full rounds need to be 4 hours and quicker on shorter courses. Clubs have to make sure to push this properly.

- The age profile of golfers keeps going up. Clubs need to offer immediate options for ages 18-35 to keep this generation playing or at least attracted to the game when so much other stuff will be going on in their lives during these years.

- I still don't think courses will close down, if they've survived this far then they've made it through the real bad times. I recall Turvey & Glencullen have both closed, I'm sure there's others but not that many.

- The game needs to be overall less formal - dress codes should go. People here will have heart failure about this as we're used to a pair of slacks and polo shirt but new people to the game can find this off putting.

thejourney

golfer555 wrote: »

We'll never see golf membership numbers like in the mid 00's ever again. The country was full of false money then. Nowadays household budgets are much tighter, if there's any hint of financial difficulty the €1,000 - €1,500 membership stops and gets replaced with 20 x €25 green fees = €500.

Open comps and green fee websites are easy ways of obtaining these rounds, even at weekends. If you're available midweek and prepared to play early you can avail of some great courses for as little as €15. Right or wrong that's the way it is now and people have got used to it. Other factors affecting golf:

- Men have to be with the family more these days, quite often they don't have the time to play 18 holes.

- 12 holes or 2.5 hours is the perfect amount of time to play i.e. be away from home for 3 hours. 9 hole comps need to be made much more common.

- Other sports are competing golf - Cycling as mentioned numerous times, marathon running, triathlons, ironman events, hill walking, water sports and other special interest sports which hardly existed in Ireland 15 years ago. All of which are hammering the potential golf market.

- Full rounds need to be 4 hours and quicker on shorter courses. Clubs have to make sure to push this properly.

- The age profile of golfers keeps going up. Clubs need to offer immediate options for ages 18-35 to keep this generation playing or at least attracted to the game when so much other stuff will be going on in their lives during these years.

- I still don't think courses will close down, if they've survived this far then they've made it through the real bad times. I recall Turvey & Glencullen have both closed, I'm sure there's others but not that many.

- The game needs to be overall less formal - dress codes should go. People here will have heart failure about this as we're used to a pair of slacks and polo shirt but new people to the game can find this off putting.

So we should dumb down the game to get the track suit wearing clan on the course so they can feel more accepted in the runners and not offended :mad::mad:

If they can't follow that basic rules , I would find it highly unlikey they could follow the 34 rules and sub rules

Let along behave on a course like a professional and not kill any one or be killed by a gold ball

The game is formal for a reason in order to protect the self governing rules. The game is the oldest in the world for a reason, but you have to really car about golf to play

Comments like this are the reason the good people are leaving for better clubs:mad:

midnight city

thejourney wrote: »

So we should dumb down the game to get the track suit wearing clan on the course so they can feel more accepted in the runners and not offended :mad::mad:

If they can't follow that basic rules , I would find it highly unlikey they could follow the 34 rules and sub rules

Let along behave on a course like a professional and not kill any one or be killed by a gold ball

The game is formal for a reason in order to protect the self governing rules. The game is the oldest in the world for a reason, but you have to really car about golf to pld:

In my club jeans are allowed but nobody wears them. People wear trousers and collared t shirts. I like it that way. I'd hate to see tracksuit regularly on the course.

Hoof Hearted2

thejourney wrote: »

I'd say the GAA lost even more. People forced to leave Ireland. 05 was the biggest year for golf worldwide in terms of sales in america.

Lots of juniors leaving as they fail to go pro. Every junior wants to be Pro and when they fail they leave.

Father leaves club then the wife and sons follow as natural cause.

But the fun thing is this lads.....If you really look at the stats I'd say that the reason the GUI has 50,000 less members is because not every one is a member of 2 or more clubs any more....

I was a member of 3 clubs a one point:eek:

How many clubs were you a member? Think

C'mon now, you're really showing yourself up here, the GUI stats are correlated based on GUI subscriptions, which are only paid once per player per year regardless of the number of clubs that that player is a member of.

thejourney wrote: »

So we should dumb down the game to get the track suit wearing clan on the course so they can feel more accepted in the runners and not offended :mad::mad:

If they can't follow that basic rules , I would find it highly unlikey they could follow the 34 rules and sub rules

Let along behave on a course like a professional and not kill any one or be killed by a gold ball

The game is formal for a reason in order to protect the self governing rules. The game is the oldest in the world for a reason, but you have to really car about golf to play

Comments like this are the reason the good people are leaving for better clubs:mad:

I think you'll find it's that kind of antiquated thinking is one of the main reasons why casual golfers are put off, thankfully though those that hold those antiquated beliefs are literally a dying breed;).

CalamariFritti

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Indoor golf? Surely the way forward in this country given how wet our winters are.

Also walking the course will be a thing of the past, have you seen those one man carts people have? Fantastic! In 15 years we'll be wondering why we ever walked the entire course just to hit few balls. Rounds therefore would be 2 - 2.5 hours.

To get out for a nice healthy walk in fresh air I guess? Every time I got a buggy it didn't feel like golf at all.

ligerdub

A lot of good points made I hadn't thought about.

I'm not sure if the point has been made, but I think golf has changed in terms of its relevance in the community. It's a solitary game so it relies on its ability to allow for a greater sense of involvement as a club.

A few years back you had people going in for a few pints after the round then driving home later on. Nowadays men are more pressured into sharing family duties at the weekend. With both parents working the man is given less leeway to spend his Saturday or Sunday with the lads. Even with that you can't get away with drink driving anymore. So with this in play it means less socialising afterwards, which means less enjoyment overall, which means people dropping out. It's no surprise other things are gaining popularity if they are done as a group.