Dublin Area/Neighbourhood Boundaries

senordingdong

Does anybody know if there is a map to show the boundaries between neighbourhoods in Dublin. As in, how do you know when you've left one area and entered another.
All I can find are maps of the council boundaries but they're not really what I'm looking for.

I ask because a friend (originally from outside Dublin) has just moved to Phibsboro but is convinced she's living in the trendy neighborhood of Stoneybatter. I think she's been swindled but I don't have anything concrete to back it up.

Carlos Orange

Google maps used to show area boundaries but doesn't seem to any more.

Wikipedia says "between the River Liffey, the North Circular Road, Smithfield Market, and Grangegorman" which seems to agree with the more verbose verbage at http://mossreid.blogspot.ie/2014/06/stoneybatter-cowtown-dublin.html

ongarboy

I would say Stoneybatter covers an area (roughly) from Manor Street/Prussia Street to the east, North Circular Road to the North, Infirmary Road to the West and Benburb St or Arbour Hill to the south.

Phibsboro would start at Hanlon's Corner, I would think.

senordingdong

I would have agreed but, I can't find anything with a hint of officialdom to confirm it.

I suspect money makers have played a hand in this. Taking a quick look at daft, I can see how someone from out of town could get confused.

Gumbo

What street does she live on?

odyssey06

What does the eircode say? What electoral ward is it in?

L1011

10-15 years ago you had people claiming their house was anywhere *but* Stoneybatter - you'll find lots of conflicting definitions due to that.

tracey turnblad

Phibsboro is 100% not stoneybatter... phibsboro is phibsboro Cabra is Cabra and so on.

uck51js9zml2yt

senordingdong wrote: »

Does anybody know if there is a map to show the boundaries between neighbourhoods in Dublin. As in, how do you know when you've left one area and entered another.
All I can find are maps of the council boundaries but they're not really what I'm looking for.

I ask because a friend (originally from outside Dublin) has just moved to Phibsboro but is convinced she's living in the trendy neighborhood of Stoneybatter. I think she's been swindled but I don't have anything concrete to back it up.

Phibsboro is not stoneybatter.
Stoneybatter is manor St, stoneybatter and the adjacent Streets.

amtc

Front of phone book

Dandelion6

tracey turnblad wrote: »

phibsboro is phibsboro Cabra is Cabra and so on.

On that note. I lived on the Cabra Road for five years and to this day I'm still not sure whether I was in Phibsboro or Cabra. Where would people say is that boundary?

senordingdong

odyssey06 wrote: »

What does the eircode say? What electoral ward is it in?

Eircodes only identify the postal area, i.e. Dublin 7, which contains both Phibsboro and stoneybatter. I find the electoral wards to be equally broad.

10-15 years ago you had people claiming their house was anywhere *but* Stoneybatter - you'll find lots of conflicting definitions due to that.

This seems to be a part of it alright. I'm combing daft and see alot of boundaries seem to have shifted for trends or price increases

Peregrinus

Suburban boundaries in Dublin have no legal or official standing, and are famously flexible. For years, now, Clontarf has been advancing northward and Raheny has been advancing southward, and Dollymount has all but disappeared. Honestly, it's like the Partition of Poland.

Back in the day, what is now Stoneybatter and what is now Phibsboro were both considered to be part of a largish, and mostly agricultural, district known as Grangegorman. When that name came to be associated mainly with the hospital, people started subdividing Grangegorman into other areas with different names. (In fairness, this was at a time when the area was being developed for urban residential accommodation and the population was greatly increasing, so there was a need for more specific and localised district names.) Stoneybatter proper, the street of that name, lies to the south and west of the old Grangegorman hospital; Phibsboro to the north and east. So I'd say that the hospital and its grounds form the natural boundary between those two districts.

Nothing north of the North Circular Road is in Stoneybatter, to my mind. It's either in Phibsboro or Cabra. (Or, if you want to be old-fashioned, Phibsborough or Cabragh.)

Peregrinus

Dandelion6 wrote: »

On that note. I lived on the Cabra Road for five years and to this day I'm still not sure whether I was in Phibsboro or Cabra. Where would people say is that boundary?

This area was also part of Grangegorman. Strictly speaking it was "Grangegorman Middle". The eastern end of it, around Dalymount Park, was developed much earlier, and was incorporated into the City of Dublin, and would probably be considered to be part of Phibsboro. I'd say everything west of the Broadstone railway line is in Cabra, but you could argue the toss; the actual townland of Cabragh starts at the western end of Cabra Road, where the Cabra Road, the Old Cabra Road and the Navan Road all meet.

senordingdong

Peregrinus wrote: »

Suburban boundaries in Dublin have no legal or official standing, and are famously flexible. For years, now, Clontarf has been advancing northward and Raheny has been advancing southward, and Dollymount has all but disappeared. Honestly, it's like the Partition of Poland.

Yes, it looks as though classic working class neighborhoods are disappearing altogether, being subsumed into nearby middle or upper class neighborhoods.

But as I said, there doesn't appear to be anything resembling an official document to detail the boundaries.

OldGoat

Worth noting that postal boundaries and parish boundaries are not always the same and people, at will, use either to further their own interests. For example I live in the postal area of Artane but the parish of Killester even though I'm closest to Raheny.

subpar

Pennies and Halpennies !!!!!

alastair

Peregrinus wrote: »

This area was also part of Grangegorman. Strictly speaking it was "Grangegorman Middle". The eastern end of it, around Dalymount Park, was developed much earlier, and was incorporated into the City of Dublin, and would probably be considered to be part of Phibsboro. I'd say everything west of the Broadstone railway line is in Cabra, but you could argue the toss; the actual townland of Cabragh starts at the western end of Cabra Road, where the Cabra Road, the Old Cabra Road and the Navan Road all meet.

The railway line is probably the dividing line between Phibsborough and Cabra alright, but Charleville road seems determined to be in Phibsborough, not Cabra. Likewise Rosemount road is supposedly Phibsborough rather than Grangegorman. Anywhere Annamoe is Cabra though. There shouldn't be any disputed address between Phibsborough and Stoneybatter, as either Cabra or Grangegorman lie between.

AlanG

As Grangegorman and cowtown is between phibsborough and stoneybatter it is hard to see how anyone could be confused. More than likely they actually live in the north inner city. Historically the whole are is grangegorman from west of the phibsborough road to up to the phoenix park.

Radiosonde

I've often wondered about this in relation to DCU, which locates itself in Glasnevin, but I've also heard people say it's in Ballymun, and even Whitehall.

jd

This may help
https://www.townlands.ie/dublin/grangegorman/

Carlos Orange

Radiosonde wrote: »

I've often wondered about this in relation to DCU, which locates itself in Glasnevin, but I've also heard people say it's in Ballymun, and even Whitehall.

Glasnevin Park is between DCU and Ballymun so it doesn't seem likely DCU was ever in Ballymun.

amtc

There's an ongoing Supreme Court issue over this issue

ongarboy

If the local cafe serves kale smoothies or chai lattes then you're in Stoneybatter but if it serves Lyons tea or Maxwell House coffee, then you're in Phibsboro!!

listermint

ongarboy wrote: »

If the local cafe serves kale smoothies or chai lattes then you're in Stoneybatter but if it serves Lyons tea or Maxwell House coffee, then you're in Phibsboro!!

Phibsboros next I suspect. Or phibo they will call it

alastair

ongarboy wrote: »

If the local cafe serves kale smoothies or chai lattes then you're in Stoneybatter but if it serves Lyons tea or Maxwell House coffee, then you're in Phibsboro!!

Two Boys Brew cafe menu items in Phibsborough:

Super Salad
tri-color quinoa | shredded kale | wild rice | coriander | feta cheese | charred corn | black turtle beans | roast cherry tomato | goji berries | chilli lime vinaigrette

Cold Press Juice
Green Love | 250ml
cucumber, lettuce, parsley, spinach, apple, lemon, chard, kale

Chai on the menu too.
This ship has sailed.

Dandelion6

Peregrinus wrote: »

I'd say everything west of the Broadstone railway line is in Cabra

Yeah that struck me as a logical boundary too. One reason I still think maybe I was in Phibsboro (despite being slightly west of the railway line) is the architecture: the houses on Cabra Road are still very Phibs-ish up until you reach Dowth Avenue.

budhabob

I looked into this last year, as I had similar questions over glasnevin. On the IOS website there are some historic maps which show the old boundaries, but alot of these are irrelevant these days e.g Ballymun avenue is now glasnevin avenue.

Peregrinus

Radiosonde wrote: »

I've often wondered about this in relation to DCU, which locates itself in Glasnevin, but I've also heard people say it's in Ballymun, and even Whitehall.

It's in the civil parish of Glasnevin.

Townland-wise, it's divided between the townlands of Wad and Hamstead North. Neither of these graduated to being a commonly-used district name when the area was urbanised (and in the case of Wad you can see why).

Peregrinus

budhabob wrote: »

I looked into this last year, as I had similar questions over glasnevin. On the IOS website there are some historic maps which show the old boundaries, but alot of these are irrelevant these days e.g Ballymun avenue is now glasnevin avenue.

Road names are not generally much use in identifying district names. The Howth Road is so called because it's the road to Howth, not because it's in Howth, and this is more often and not the case for roads which are named after places; they mostly lie outside the place after which they are named. The idea that DCU is in Ballymun may have originated because it's just off Ballymun Road, but that stretch of Ballymun Road is not in Ballymun at all; it's in Glasnevin.

Glasnevin Avenue (Ballymun Avenue that was) lies partly in Finglas, partly in Santry and partly in Glasnevin, but it is the approach to Ballymun, if you're starting from Finglas, which is probably the reason for the original name.

Lovely Bloke

Which part of Glasnevin Ave is in Santry?

At the junction of Ballymun Road it becomes Collins Ave Extension down to Whitehall then Collins Ave from there to Donnycarney then Collins Ave East after the big church down to Killester village.

Hannibal

Radiosonde wrote: »

I've often wondered about this in relation to DCU, which locates itself in Glasnevin, but I've also heard people say it's in Ballymun, and even Whitehall.

DCU is Glasnevin by about 200 metres. The crossroads at Ballymun Rd/Glasnevin Ave would be Ballymun to the north and Glasnevin to the south.

psinno wrote: »

Glasnevin Park is between DCU and Ballymun so it doesn't seem likely DCU was ever in Ballymun.

Glasnevin Park is nowhere near it, it's further up towards Finglas.

As regards to the OP. Stoneybatter is in Dublin 7, it is in the Dublin Central Dail Constituency, it is in the North Inner City DCC Constituency. It's DED electoral ward is Arran Quay B. It shares all of the above with Grangegorman.

In my opinion Stoneybatter is bordered to the north by the NCR, south by Arbour Hill, east is Prussia Street/Manor Street, west is O'Deveaney and along Arbour Hill prison.
The rest of that general area down to the quays and the Phoenix Park is Arbour Hill.

Once you go over the Prussia/Manor/Blackhall line then you're into Grangegorman with Smithfield to the south. Phibsboro is east of the train tracks and the Dalymount, Mountjoy, Mater Hospital area.

prinzeugen

senordingdong wrote: »

Does anybody know if there is a map to show the boundaries between neighbourhoods in Dublin. As in, how do you know when you've left one area and entered another.
All I can find are maps of the council boundaries but they're not really what I'm looking for.

I ask because a friend (originally from outside Dublin) has just moved to Phibsboro but is convinced she's living in the trendy neighborhood of Stoneybatter. I think she's been swindled but I don't have anything concrete to back it up.

You won't find one. But the local sorting office is a clue.

I had the joys of working as a motorbike courier for two years during the boom.

Regular client was the Anglo. Send us out to deliver stuff to addresses "Dalkey" or "Killiney" that turned out to be across the road from the garage in Ballybrack.

This one house had a street number but used the house name instead. Was the size of a postage stamp and impossible to see on a dark, rainy night..

amtc

This went all the way to the Supreme Court to determine addresses...

Personally I live in Blanchardstown I can pop to the shopping centre walking in 5 minutes. However I am in Castle knock ded but vote in Main St blanchardstown. Google maps show me in a town land I've never heard of and I've lived round here all my life.

rubadub

senordingdong wrote: »

But as I said, there doesn't appear to be anything resembling an official document to detail the boundaries.

An post have a site which indicates the address to be used.

http://correctaddress.anpost.ie/pages/Search.aspx

So if you are unfortunate enough to live in a supposed affluent area you can pre-empt it and when asked where you live say "you mean my actual official postal address?" and say "an post officially say xyz". So the snob-patrol do not get to have their little argument.

If you are certain the debate is coming it could be "you mean my actual official postal address? or the one you would like it to be?"

I have never seen the snob-patrol brigade argue in reverse -i.e. when someone says a postal address I know to be wrong and in a "poorer area" they never try and correct them.

Carlos Orange

rubadub wrote: »

An post have a site which indicates the address to be used.

http://correctaddress.anpost.ie/pages/Search.aspx

My address just says Dublin 7. How vague.

L1011

rubadub wrote: »

An post have a site which indicates the address to be used.

http://correctaddress.anpost.ie/pages/Search.aspx
.

It includes post towns. Which is a bit useless. I have never lived in Naas, for instance...

odyssey06

My thinking is if you cant find something - eircode, shared electoral polling station, parish boundaries - to tie your address to a district, then you shouldnt go round claiming that you are in it.

Peregrinus

Lovely Bloke wrote: »

Which part of Glasnevin Ave is in Santry?

At the junction of Ballymun Road it becomes Collins Ave Extension down to Whitehall then Collins Ave from there to Donnycarney then Collins Ave East after the big church down to Killester village.

Not very much of it, and it's only barely in Santry. The easternmost 150 metres or so, running between Ballymun Road and a laneway that gives access to the tennis courts behind Ballymun library lies in the civil parish of Santry. That laneway runs along the boundary between Santry civil parish and Glasnevin Civil Parish

Peregrinus

odyssey06 wrote: »

My thinking is if you cant find something - eircode, shared electoral polling station, parish boundaries - to tie your address to a district, then you shouldnt go round claiming that you are in it.

Basically, locality names in Dublin have no fixed boundaries. An area is considered to be in a particular locality if enough people speak of it as being in that locality. Usage varies over time, especially as land is developed for residential purposes. An area which, when rural, was considered to be part of Rathmines (in Dublin) is now called Dartry, for example. There is no parish or townland of Dartry; the district appears to have been named after Dartry House, which was built in the early nineteenth century in the townland of Rathmines South. (Dartry House may have been named after the Barony of Dartry in Monaghan.) Presumably as the area was developed for residential purposes telling people that you lived in "Rathmines" was not terribly helpful; Rathmines was just too big, and Rathmines South, confusingly, is not the southernmost part of what was then considered Rathmines. So people started to say that they lived near near Dartry House, and pretty soon an understanding of where "Dartry" was emerged, and the understanding of what was embraced by "Rathmines" contracted.

Lovely Bloke

Peregrinus wrote: »

Not very much of it, and it's only barely in Santry. The easternmost 150 metres or so, running between Ballymun Road and a laneway that gives access to the tennis courts behind Ballymun library lies in the civil parish of Santry. That laneway runs along the boundary between Santry civil parish and Glasnevin Civil Parish

:eek:

Wow, that's interesting.

odyssey06

Peregrinus wrote: »

Basically, locality names in Dublin have no fixed boundaries. An area is considered to be in a particular locality if enough people speak of it as being in that locality.

Except we do have fixed boundaries which over time reflect those considerations for some localities... such as postcodes parishes, polling stations, school catchment areas etc
So, assuming the locality has had time to associate to those kind of fixed boundaries:
If you live in Dublin 3 and claim you're living in Clontarf, but are not in the boundaries of any of the Clontarf parishes, and vote in a polling station in Marino, you're not living in Clontarf as far as I'm concerned - even though 300 years ago there was no Marino, there was only Clontarf.

In your example, if those people in 'Dartry' are still in a Rathmines parish or polling station, then they are in greater Rathmines, but it might not be possible to really categorise where Dartry is.

But I don't know Stoneybatter \ Phibsboro well enough to know if it's a Clontarf or Darty situation.

Peregrinus

The thing is, over time the fixed boundaries don't reflect people's understandings of where localities lie. Both Rathgar and Terenure, for example, are in the civil parish of Rathfarnham, but if you were trying to find your way to someone's home in Rathgar or Terenure, I don't think it would be much help to you to be told that they lived in Rathfarnham. There are 10 electoral divisions with "Rathmines" in the name; Dartry doesn't lie in any of them but the Royal Hospital Donnybrook, for example, does. Would you say that the Royal Hospital is more "Rathmines" than Dartry is? I wouldn't.

District Electoral Divisions, in particular, were created and are name for boring administrative convenience. The 10 DEDs with "Rathmines" in the name are so named because originally their electoral business was conducted out of Rathmines Town Hall, not because they include areas considered at the time or now to be in Rathmines.

Parish and townland names do reflect what people at one time called the land included in them, but the names are mostly centuries old, and people's usage has changed. The housing development commonly called "Marino" - the devolopment surrounding the circular Marino Park - lies half in the townland of Marino and half in the townland of Ballybough. (The same is true of the park itself.) Do you consider one side of Marino to be more truly "Marino" than the other because one side has long been called Marino and the other only more recently so? No, me neither.

The bottom line is that the name of any area, district or locality is what people call it. That's what the word "name" means. If people call an area Dartry or Marino, then Darty or Marino is, by definition, the name of that area. Suburbs, etc, don't align precisely with parish or townland boundaries' the result is that we can have a townland, a parish and a suburb all with the same name, but considered to embrace different areas. The fact that the names are constantly evolving and shifting does create a space in which snobbery, social climbing, fashion, etc can influence the development of names, but this should hardly surprise us.

odyssey06

There may be some drift between different boundaries - parish v postal v electoral, but if you can't find a single boundary tying your address to that suburb, you're not in that suburb.
If there are no boundaries that align with that suburb, even approximately, the suburb doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned. We're into some sort of nebulous and vague 'locality', and no one should place too much significance on it.

ThisRegard

amtc wrote: »

This went all the way to the Supreme Court to determine addresses...

Personally I live in Blanchardstown I can pop to the shopping centre walking in 5 minutes. However I am in Castle knock ded but vote in Main St blanchardstown. Google maps show me in a town land I've never heard of and I've lived round here all my life.

A lot of townlands around Dublin 15 have names that go back to tribal and chieftain times. The barony of Castleknock covers pretty much all of Dublin 15 as far as the Meath border.

markpb

odyssey06 wrote: »

if you can't find a single boundary tying your address to that suburb, you're not in that suburb [...] as far as I'm concerned.

You're just proving Peregrinus' point. It's all down to opinion. Someone might think they live in Rathmines, you might disagree but since there's no legal boundary like a county border, you're both right and wrong.

senordingdong

Peregrinus wrote: »

The fact that the names are constantly evolving and shifting does create a space in which snobbery, social climbing, fashion, etc can influence the development of names, but this should hardly surprise us.

You're right, it shouldn't surprise us.
But when money gets involved, everything else be damned, squeeze for the last penny.

Marcusm

Peregrinus wrote: »

Basically, locality names in Dublin have no fixed boundaries. An area is considered to be in a particular locality if enough people speak of it as being in that locality. Usage varies over time, especially as land is developed for residential purposes. An area which, when rural, was considered to be part of Rathmines (in Dublin) is now called Dartry, for example. There is no parish or townland of Dartry; the district appears to have been named after Dartry House, which was built in the early nineteenth century in the townland of Rathmines South. (Dartry House may have been named after the Barony of Dartry in Monaghan.) Presumably as the area was developed for residential purposes telling people that you lived in "Rathmines" was not terribly helpful; Rathmines was just too big, and Rathmines South, confusingly, is not the southernmost part of what was then considered Rathmines. So people started to say that they lived near near Dartry House, and pretty soon an understanding of where "Dartry" was emerged, and the understanding of what was embraced by "Rathmines" contracted.

But is Dartry more Cullenswood or Uppercross! That's what you might find on the original landgrants.