Wild Bird Cover performance - GLAS

Base price

How is your WBC - ours looks like a field of weeds.
Originally we sowed oats and linseed in ley after ploughing (contractor). Two passes with a power harrow (same contractor) to till. We broadcast the seeds with a Vicon wagtail borrowed from a neighbour. Harrowed in the oats 4 ways with our old spring tine harrow. Unfortunately there are no direct seed drills around here in Longford. Broadcast the linseed with the same borrowed wagtail and drilled them in with a light touch of the levelling harrow.
In the most part the oats germinated to 4/6 leaf stage but seemed to fail a few weeks later and became yellow at the base. I posted a pic of same earlier this year.
I asked a friend for advice (a renowned tillage farmer in NCD) and showed him pics of the crop. He reckoned that after looking at the pics and the fact there was no pesticides applied he concluded that either leather jackets or aphids were the cause of the demise of the crop.
Where do we go on from here - are we wasting our time?

Username John

How did the linseed do Base?

I'll be putting in a bit of WBC here in the spring, not sure how it'll be done... so interested to hear how people got on...

Cavanjack

Base price wrote: »

How is your WBC - ours looks like a field of weeds.
Originally we sowed oats and linseed in ley after ploughing (contractor). Two passes with a power harrow (same contractor) to till. We broadcast the seeds with a Vicon wagtail borrowed from a neighbour. Harrowed in the oats 4 ways with our old spring tine harrow. Unfortunately there are no direct seed drills around here in Longford. Broadcast the linseed with the same borrowed wagtail and drilled them in with a light touch of the levelling harrow.
In the most part the oats germinated to 4/6 leaf stage but seemed to fail a few weeks later and became yellow at the base. I posted a pic of same earlier this year.
I asked a friend for advice (a renowned tillage farmer in NCD) and showed him pics of the crop. He reckoned that after looking at the pics and the fact there was no pesticides applied he concluded that either leather jackets or aphids were the cause of the demise of the crop.
Where do we go on from here - are we wasting our time?

Course we are wasting our time. The crows ate the most of the oats as seeds here and nothing seems too bothered about the linseed. Haven't seen a bird near it since the Autumn.

Willfarman

The high thick uncoppiced hedges here in my non glas farm are a better source of berries and bird habitat than the acres of weeds are.

Username John

I'll be putting it wild bird cover in an area that half surrounded by either barley or wheat, fodder beer or scrubby glen... the birds around here aren't badly off at all to be honest... but, to be fair, twould be impossible to make a scheme that catered for different things in different areas too... (well, maybe not impossible, but the dept have no interest in such things)

_Brian

It would be far from impossible but there is no appetite to move away from the one size fits all approach.

rangler1

Base price wrote: »

How is your WBC - ours looks like a field of weeds.
Originally we sowed oats and linseed in ley after ploughing (contractor). Two passes with a power harrow (same contractor) to till. We broadcast the seeds with a Vicon wagtail borrowed from a neighbour. Harrowed in the oats 4 ways with our old spring tine harrow. Unfortunately there are no direct seed drills around here in Longford. Broadcast the linseed with the same borrowed wagtail and drilled them in with a light touch of the levelling harrow.
In the most part the oats germinated to 4/6 leaf stage but seemed to fail a few weeks later and became yellow at the base. I posted a pic of same earlier this year.
I asked a friend for advice (a renowned tillage farmer in NCD) and showed him pics of the crop. He reckoned that after looking at the pics and the fact there was no pesticides applied he concluded that either leather jackets or aphids were the cause of the demise of the crop.
Where do we go on from here - are we wasting our time?

everything needed slug pellets this year, some people had to go twice or three times with them too,so that could be what was wrong with yours too

Username John

What are the expectations around crop success?
Like, if half the crop fails, are you expected to drill again? Or is it a case of 'you sowed it, your end of the bargain is done'

grassroot1

Linseed and oats is not a good wildbird cover crop.From what I have seen most crops have too much linseed and the oats have broken down long ago or were attacked by crows. It would be far better to sow a specific wild bird mix there are a number of UK companies producing them(Kings/brights among others)
If we are going to sow wildbird cover we might aswell do it right.
Triticale and kale would be a better mix.
A lot of crops were sown in the bad corner/a rough oul spot soil fertility would be an issue in these areas.
Like any crop the day you sow and the conditions have a major bearing on the results.

Username John

grassroot1 wrote: »

Linseed and oats is not a good wildbird cover crop.From what I have seen most crops have too much linseed and the oats have broken down long ago or were attacked by crows. It would be far better to sow a specific wild bird mix there are a number of UK companies producing them(Kings/brights among others)
If we are going to sow wildbird cover we might aswell do it right.
Triticale and kale would be a better mix.
A lot of crops were sown in the bad corner/a rough oul spot soil fertility would be an issue in these areas.
Like any crop the day you sow and the conditions have a major bearing on the results.

*I think* you need to have specific combinations of mixes for GLAS, rather than a wild bird mix (even if a specific wild bird cover mix would be better)

Base price

Username John wrote: »

How did the linseed do Base?

I'll be putting in a bit of WBC here in the spring, not sure how it'll be done... so interested to hear how people got on...

The linseed grew well. I had a look at it the other day and most of the seeds are still on the plants although they soft and squishy.
As others have posted the crows seem to have got the best benefit from WBC either as seeds when planted or knocking the oats to get at the heads.

Track9

Am surprised the Oats going yellow at the base .Suspect a small cover of Nitrogen may be required as our oats went slightly yellowish in parts where fertility of soil is poor ( Over thin poorish ground ) .With us WBC Planted in 2016 & continues to feed birds & provide ground cover for lots wildlife .
Used GLAS specified Oats & Linseed .Found the oats v resilient to grow & to maintain the stalks & leaves.

Base price

Track9 wrote: »

Am surprised the Oats going yellow at the base .Suspect a small cover of Nitrogen may be required as our oats went slightly yellowish in parts where fertility of soil is poor ( Over thin poorish ground ) .With us WBC Planted in 2016 & continues to feed birds & provide ground cover for lots wildlife .
Used GLAS specified Oats & Linseed .Found the oats v resilient to grow & to maintain the stalks & leaves.

Not all the crop was affected. We sowed WBC in two different areas of the farm and both areas had patches that went yellow. Spread a bag and a half of fert at the time of planting. We had a very wet summer which may not have helped however the linseed did well.

Base price

I thought that it was a bit of a sensational headline considering that the scheme has only completed it's first year. Apparently the experts evaluated grasslands under AEOS from 2013 to date.
http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/schemes/glas-scheme-is-not-working-claim-experts-35371722.html

maidhc

Planted 6ac of wild bird cover (Linseed and Barley). It established well, and the bird activity around those 6ac is far higher than anywhere else in the farm. There also seems to be a lot of wildlife activity in general there, so to my mind it is working very well.

grassroot1

Base price wrote: »

I thought that it was a bit of a sensational headline considering that the scheme has only completed it's first year. Apparently the experts evaluated grasslands under AEOS from 2013 to date.
http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/schemes/glas-scheme-is-not-working-claim-experts-35371722.html

I thought where it said 1% should be ring fenced for those evaluating the scheme said it all
How was GLAS going to turn around 30 years of declining wildlife in one year.

Capercaillie

grassroot1 wrote: »

I thought where it said 1% should be ring fenced for those evaluating the scheme said it all
How was GLAS going to turn around 30 years of declining wildlife in one year.

REPS was a failure in trying to protect wildlife. GLAS is watered down REPS.:(

larthehar

My biggest concern is how will it be ploughed again?! The amount of trash on top of it with lodged plants.. still unsure if you can spray it or not? Let up a bunch of suckler cows on march 15th and see what tooting they can do i guess!!

blue5000

Capercaillie wrote: »

REPS was a failure in trying to protect wildlife. GLAS is watered down REPS.:(

I disagree with you there, I was in the last tranche of Reps and IMHO there is a lot more song birds on my farm now than 20 years ago before Reps started.

There are buzzards here as well, an apex predator, they wouldn't be here without food. Now I know a couple of poisons were banned (eg. strychnine) and that helped them, but the fact that they are here now and weren't here 10 years ago shows that things have improved.

Base price

larthehar wrote: »

My biggest concern is how will it be ploughed again?! The amount of trash on top of it with lodged plants.. still unsure if you can spray it or not? Let up a bunch of suckler cows on march 15th and see what tooting they can do i guess!!

I don't want to spray as doing so sorta undermines (imo) the ethos of the scheme. Ploughing again is burying the fertile layer. We were thinking about stocking it to a high rate (after the 15/3) to see if lots of hooves and mouths will tidy it up enough so that we could use a power harrow or disc harrow on it

blue5000

Another problem with WBC is that it's fairly expensive to establish, a lot of ppl chose it as their main option to get into tier II. Now everyone, 18,000(?) ppl who applied for GLAS 3 are guaranteed they'll get in. So ppl who aimed at the lower tier will get in, get paid and be better off.

Username John

blue5000 wrote: »

Another problem with WBC is that it's fairly expensive to establish, a lot of ppl chose it as their main option to get into tier II. Now everyone, 18,000(?) ppl who applied for GLAS 3 are guaranteed they'll get in. So ppl who aimed at the lower tier will get in, get paid and be better off.

How expensive is it to establish?

maidhc

Username John wrote: »

How expensive is it to establish?

It is very cheap, maybe €600? I can't remember it being much anyway.

jimmy G M

Username John wrote: »

How expensive is it to establish?

Have 6 acres of WBC, 3 acres oats, 3 acres Kale. Off the top of my head, Ploughing €50/acre = €300 (contractor)
3 runs of a disk harrow (owned) €50 fuel
Scatter seed with own fert spreader, harrow with own chain harrow, roll own roller €20 (mf 35)
Kale seed around €80, Certified oat seed around €80 as well. Total €530 / 6 = €90 aprox. acre (Ok own labour not included)
Glas payment equates to €360 / acre.

This coming year, I just have to re-sow the oats, hopefully 3 runs of the disk will do the job, so re-establishment cost €150/6 = €25 acre.

Most profitable bit of "farming" I'll do this year.

Username John

jimmy G M wrote: »

Have 6 acres of WBC, 3 acres oats, 3 acres Kale. Off the top of my head, Ploughing €50/acre = €300 (contractor)
3 runs of a disk harrow (owned) €50 fuel
Scatter seed with own fert spreader, harrow with own chain harrow, roll own roller €20 (mf 35)
Kale seed around €80, Certified oat seed around €80 as well. Total €530 / 6 = €90 aprox. acre (Ok own labour not included)
Glas payment equates to €360 / acre.

This coming year, I just have to re-sow the oats, hopefully 3 runs of the disk will do the job, so re-establishment cost €150/6 = €25 acre.

Most profitable bit of "farming" I'll do this year.

Did you not have to put out fertiliser? I would have you'd need it? Or is that against the rules maybe?

Farrell

Username John wrote: »

Did you not have to put out fertiliser? I would have you'd need it? Or is that against the rules maybe?

Also was this ground ploughed before, did you end up turning over much trash?

Capercaillie

Username John wrote: »

Did you not have to put out fertiliser? I would have you'd need it? Or is that against the rules maybe?

I fertilized twice.

susign

I was forced to plough a lot of nests belonging to pheasants back in when sowing my second crop. Not to mention rat infestations reported around the country (thankfully mine is far a way from my yard) . Wild bird cover is a disaster, I didn't think it through properly as I rushed into glas although I blame equally the department for introducing it, it would be more environmentally friendly to make an emergency plan and pay farmers to leave the bird cover land idle..

Cavanjack

susign wrote: »

I was forced to plough a lot of nests belonging to pheasants back in when sowing my second crop. Not to mention rat infestations reported around the country (thankfully mine is far a way from my yard) . Wild bird cover is a disaster, I didn't think it through properly as I rushed into glas although I blame equally the department for introducing it, it would be more environmentally friendly to make an emergency plan and pay farmers to leave the bird cover land idle..

Sure it's a joke. What about the lipp? Weeds growing across the ditches but we can't get in to spray or top till mid July. At that stage the seeds will have scattered all over the country leading to a bigger problem next year and coming years.

susign

Cavanjack wrote:

Sure it's a joke. What about the lipp? Weeds growing across the ditches but we can't get in to spray or top till mid July. At that stage the seeds will have scattered all over the country leading to a bigger problem next year and coming years.

Spot spraying is allowed between 15-March until 15th July in the lipp (low input permanent pasture). This is one of the parts of glas that suits me as my farm was rented for years, the weeds got way out of hand when rented so every summer I am spot spraying every summer instead of topping until July. Grazon 90 Pro is the best stuff to use, kills docks, tissles, nettles, ragworth and even fir bushes.

Username John

susign wrote: »

Spot spraying is allowed between 15-March until 15th July in the lipp (low input permanent pasture). This is one of the parts of glas that suits me as my farm was rented for years, the weeds got way out of hand when rented so every summer I am spot spraying every summer instead of topping until July. Grazon 90 Pro is the best stuff to use, kills docks, tissles, nettles, ragworth and even fir bushes.

+1

Now, I wouldn't be a great man to look after grassland and spray the weeds...

But the way some people talk about the way weeds have come in LIPP, twould make you think there wasn't a weed in the place til they signed the GLAS contract...

susign

Username John wrote:

But the way some people talk about the way weeds have come in LIPP, twould make you think there wasn't a weed in the place til they signed the GLAS contract...

Username John wrote:

Now, I wouldn't be a great man to look after grassland and spray the weeds...

Well I hate to admit it but my fields beside the road never reflected the condition of some of the fields hidden from the road even before I went into glas. It'll be a long time be I have it right

Cavanjack

Username John wrote: »

+1

Now, I wouldn't be a great man to look after grassland and spray the weeds...

But the way some people talk about the way weeds have come in LIPP, twould make you think there wasn't a weed in the place til they signed the GLAS contract...[/quo
Weeds seem to have gotten worse on the whole farm this last few years but can keep control of them by spraying and topping.
Problem is I Work full time, have a few kids and plenty of other routine jobs to do on the farm never mind going round with a knapsack on 10 hectares trying to kill weeds. If I could even top it before the weeds seed it would be a help, but sure that's what we signed up for and not complaining about the money.

susign

I know the feeling, there's always more urgent matters to be sorted during the bit oftime available. I only do a nap sack when crossing fields when on the way to do hearding the odd day. 3rd year at it now and its starting to pay off. If I have nothing else on for the evening I park tractor in field with an IBC tank of water on trailer to re-fill nap sack. Would cover alot of ground in a few hours - provided you could get those few hours of course

bbeeforsalmon

In Glas 1. Went with half kale, half triticale in light sandy field. No bother first 2 years but reseeded kale had grown an inch or two but died due to weed infestation (in spite of ploughing) and drought (moisture deficits worst here in north east). I decided to spray it off and have disced it twice amid a sandstorm. No point in sowing till it rains but is it too late? Should I contact Glas office or keep quiet. Had no inspections. Triticale is perfect. Fertilized up to rate allowed. I have read that weeds are the main problem with kale if not controlled pre emergence.

Base price

bbeeforsalmon wrote: »

In Glas 1. Went with half kale, half triticale in light sandy field. No bother first 2 years but reseeded kale had grown an inch or two but died due to weed infestation (in spite of ploughing) and drought (moisture deficits worst here in north east). I decided to spray it off and have disced it twice amid a sandstorm. No point in sowing till it rains but is it too late? Should I contact Glas office or keep quiet. Had no inspections. Triticale is perfect. Fertilized up to rate allowed. I have read that weeds are the main problem with kale if not controlled pre emergence.

You need to talk to your advisor and see what he/she thinks.
There is a clause in GLAS under Force Majeure circumstances that allows for non compliance due to "A natural disaster affecting the holding’s agricultural land" point 20.3.4. I don't know if the drought that we are having would fall under the same heading but I would argue that it should. However you will forfeit the payment for that action and you must notify the Dept "within 10 days of been able to do so"
Here is a link to GLAS Terms and Conditions - see page 12 for Force Majeure
https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/farmingschemesandpayments/glastranche1/GLASTranche1TandCs071015.pdf

bbeeforsalmon

Base price wrote: »

You need to talk to your advisor and see what he/she thinks.
There is a clause in GLAS under Force Majeure circumstances that allows for non compliance due to "A natural disaster affecting the holding’s agricultural land" point 20.3.4. I don't know if the drought that we are having would fall under the same heading but I would argue that it should. However you will forfeit the payment for that action and you must notify the Dept "within 10 days of been able to do so"
Here is a link to GLAS Terms and Conditions - see page 12 for Force Majeure
https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/farmingschemesandpayments/glastranche1/GLASTranche1TandCs071015.pdf

Base price
Thanks for that. Think I’ll notify them Monday. Might get away with drought excuse. If I lost half of WBC payment it wouldn’t be the end of the world. Will give the planner a shout.

Base price

bbeeforsalmon wrote: »

Base price
Thanks for that. Think I’ll notify them Monday. Might get away with drought excuse. If I lost half of WBC payment it wouldn’t be the end of the world. Will give the planner a shout.

Speak with your planner first.

adamhughes

could some breakdown the costs of say planting a hectare of WBC and profit to be gained.
thanks

TPF2012

adamhughes wrote:

could some breakdown the costs of say planting a hectare of WBC and profit to be gained. thanks

Contractor,disc harrow and spread seed - 500. Seed, 300. Fertilizer, 150. Sprayer,50. Total cost approx 1000. Payment 2.8 ha × 900 = 2500. Profit approx 1500.Profit per ha 535. 1st year costs are higher, clear the ground, plough, fence.

blue5000

bbeeforsalmon wrote: »

Base price
Thanks for that. Think I’ll notify them Monday. Might get away with drought excuse. If I lost half of WBC payment it wouldn’t be the end of the world. Will give the planner a shout.

Hold off until it rains would be my 2 cents. By then you'll know if there is a crop on it or not.

bbeeforsalmon

blue5000 wrote: »

Hold off until it rains would be my 2 cents. By then you'll know if there is a crop on it or not.

Thanks.
I’m kicking the can down the road at the moment. Rain due tomorrow but will probably evaporate. Soil moisture deficit now about 95mm so near 4 inches needed. Even if conditions were right it’s 3 weeks late to sow kale. Have the seed bought and can sow myself. Will give it a go if we get a good spill.

Base price

bbeeforsalmon wrote: »

Thanks.
I’m kicking the can down the road at the moment. Rain due tomorrow but will probably evaporate. Soil moisture deficit now about 95mm so near 4 inches needed. Even if conditions were right it’s 3 weeks late to sow kale. Have the seed bought and can sow myself. Will give it a go if we get a good spill.

Did you talk to your planner yet?

bbeeforsalmon

Base price wrote: »

Did you talk to your planner yet?

Planner says sow again and keep my mouth shut. The rain - 10min light shower so no change there.

Capercaillie

Unbelievably my fodder radish/kale has done well. Sowed at start of May, then got a bit of rain and germinated. Hit by drought but got rain just in time. Good pods of seed forming.

greenfield21

Only got wbc in last week, ground final dry enough to be able to drive on it.

sea12

greenfield21 wrote: »

Only got wbc in last week, ground final dry enough to be able to drive on it.

This is my wbc or lack off. Picture taken last week before the rain. Has improved a bit in the last week as more seed germinated but pretty horrific to be looking out at.

bbeeforsalmon

Capercaillie wrote: »

Unbelievably my fodder radish/kale has done well. Sowed at start of May, then got a bit of rain and germinated. Hit by drought but got rain just in time. Good pods of seed forming.

Sowed kale for 2nd time last Monday after wet Sunday. First crop had germinated by end of May but so did the best crop of lambs quarter ever seen. Was reading up on kale and it seems weed control early on is vital. No rain worth talking about since early June until this week so it didn’t stand a chance. Haven’t looked at it since but had lots of rain Thursday/Friday and more due next week so fingers crossed.

Capercaillie

bbeeforsalmon wrote: »

Sowed kale for 2nd time last Monday after wet Sunday. First crop had germinated by end of May but so did the best crop of lambs quarter ever seen. Was reading up on kale and it seems weed control early on is vital. No rain worth talking about since early June until this week so it didn’t stand a chance. Haven’t looked at it since but had lots of rain Thursday/Friday and more due next week so fingers crossed.

Previously grew kale with triticale, which acts as good nursery crop for kale. Only problem with triticale is is attracted a load of crows/rats and feral cats (after the rats).

Lady Haywire

Mustard showing up well.

Base price

Came across this bumblebee sheltering on a phacelia flower late this evening. I bought 2 kgs of phacelia seed and broadcast it after the oats & linseed.

Considering the drought that we had I am very happy with the performance of the wbc this year. There are hundreds of bumblebees every day.