12 acres with old cottage ruin

80sDiesel

Hi .

I have the opportunity to take on some mountain land ( 12 acres ) which has an old ruined cottage which I may like to build on someday. The land is currently rented out at 2k to a sheep farmer.

It is a pretty setting and I thought about planting some oak trees and maybe try my hand at getting some wildflowers growing. Idea would be that in 5 years if I were to build , it would look even better

I am guessing I would need to cut/top the grass a few times a year . I would have the use of a tractor.

Does this seem like a sensible idea.

parishsavings

First of all congrats on having 12 acres and a wallstead...you are living my dream!!

Depends on the land, how hilly, how marginal.

You could plant it which the grant would cover and have a nice premium for the next 15 years, plus the timber after 30 or 35 years.
However you may not want to plant close to the proposed house, so perhaps plant some of the ground.

Another option would be sheep.

What part of the country are you in?

80sDiesel

Thanks. I had to look up wallstead. Is it advantageous that it has one. I am guessing it just makes planning permission easier ?

The land is not great but alot of work in the past means that it is somewhat well drained. It's flat on the top of a mountain. Kilkenny.

I looked into forestry but I am more interested in creating something 'pretty' so the idea of well placed oak trees.. 4 per acre just off the top of my head.

parishsavings

80sDiesel wrote: »

Thanks. I had to look up wallstead. Is it advantageous that it has one. I am guessing it just makes planning permission easier ?

The land is not great but alot of work in the past means that it is somewhat well drained. It's flat on the top of a mountain. Kilkenny.

I looked into forestry but I am more interested in creating something 'pretty' so the idea of well placed oak trees.. 4 per acre just off the top of my head.

Yes having an existing house would be some advantage if applying for planning.
It may also be easier to tie yourself into the area i.e. family originally from there etc

At 4/acre that is definitely a pretty arrangement as opposed to a commercial set-up or a handy side income!
If you are going for such a low planting rate, I would definitely recommend having a few sheep (if farming interests you)

Inchilad

80sDiesel wrote:

I am guessing I would need to cut/top the grass a few times a year . I would have the use of a tractor.

Topping 12 acres is no fun.get some sheep.theyre great to have around.nice to look out and see a few a sheep.(or maybe it's just me!)

80sDiesel

I can't stand sheep. It's something to do with their eyes!

Inchilad

80sDiesel wrote:

I can't stand sheep. It's something to do with their eyes!

😂😂😂😂

80sDiesel

As I understand it, if I rent it out for 5 years , the income us tax free. Do I need to draw up a formal lease?

SILVAMAN

80sDiesel wrote: »

Thanks. I had to look up wallstead. Is it advantageous that it has one. I am guessing it just makes planning permission easier ?

The land is not great but alot of work in the past means that it is somewhat well drained. It's flat on the top of a mountain. Kilkenny.

I looked into forestry but I am more interested in creating something 'pretty' so the idea of well placed oak trees.. 4 per acre just off the top of my head.

This grant-aided forest scheme may be of interest https://www.teagasc.ie/crops/forestry/grants/agro-forestry/

You'll get €260/year for 5 years

80sDiesel

Thanks. Very interesting.
I was doing some research on trees and came across pin oak trees which are ideal for wettish land. Would they be a good tree to go for?

SILVAMAN

80sDiesel wrote: »

Thanks. Very interesting.
I was doing some research on trees and came across pin oak trees which are ideal for wettish land. Would they be a good tree to go for?

No! :eek:
Most eastern North American trees do not grow well in Ireland unless in sheltered locations. They are almost universally incapable of dealing with harsh conditions of temperature, wind and cold soils. Having lived in the Eastern USA for many years, and having tried some species here, that's my verdict.
Quercus palustris or the Pin oak is a beautiful tree, but my gut and experience of its relatives tells me it would be a poor gamble.
For wet areas, try alder, specifically Italian alder or Alnus cordata. Wonderful form, deep green glossy leaves, windfirm and incredibly beautiful cones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alnus_cordata
https://www.google.ie/search?q=italian+alder&rlz=1C1PRFG_enIE719IE719&espv=2&biw=1242&bih=580&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjjp9OIkr3RAhWLDcAKHd03CKYQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=q04R2EMkMmnK2M%3A

https://www.google.ie/search?q=italian+alder&rlz=1C1PRFG_enIE719IE719&espv=2&biw=1242&bih=580&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjjp9OIkr3RAhWLDcAKHd03CKYQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=go-TAvi7SniiTM%3A

80sDiesel

Thank you very very much for that insight. Going to research those species you mentioned.

80sDiesel

Would you also recommend mountain Ash or Sessile oak?

SILVAMAN

80sDiesel wrote: »

Would you also recommend mountain Ash or Sessile oak?

For grant aid oak is acceptable, depending on the site, but not I think mountain ash as it doesn't produce merchantable timber. You might be able to use it as a 10% component of a mix, but difficult to say without seeing the site and getting the input of the forestry inspector, if you do plan to go for grant aid. What county are you in?

80sDiesel

Kilkenny. I am not looking for grant aid but planning on planning some tree in a number of straight rows with eventually a wildflower wild grass meadow beneath. I figured Oak trees might look thru best?

SILVAMAN

80sDiesel wrote: »

Kilkenny. I am not looking for grant aid but planning on planning some tree in a number of straight rows with eventually a wildflower wild grass meadow beneath. I figured Oak trees might look thru best?

Oak sounds fine, provided it's not too wet.
For some reason I thought that you were in the west of the country, but as you're in Kilkenny, and if not too exposed a site, you might have a chance with Pin Oak. What elevation are you at ,how is the soil and what other trees grow nearby?

Help!!!!

80sDiesel wrote: »

I can't stand sheep. It's something to do with their eyes!

What about goats? Maybe adopt horse/donkeys as well

80sDiesel

SILVAMAN wrote: »

Oak sounds fine, provided it's not too wet.
For some reason I thought that you were in the west of the country, but as you're in Kilkenny, and if not too exposed a site, you might have a chance with Pin Oak. What elevation are you at ,how is the soil and what other trees grow nearby?

Soil is good but it's high elevation and exposed. And the more I do my research the more I am including to plant some native species.

80sDiesel

Help!!!! wrote: »

What about goats? Maybe adopt horse/donkeys as well

I have no interest in animals.

SILVAMAN

80sDiesel wrote: »

Soil is good but it's high elevation and exposed. And the more I do my research the more I am including to plant some native species.

Oak, rowan, alder, perhaps the occasional sycamore for nectar.

80sDiesel

Help!!!! wrote: »

What about goats? Maybe adopt horse/donkeys as well

I have no interest in animals.

bonzodog2

Help!!!! wrote: »

What about goats? Maybe adopt horse/donkeys as well

Goats and trees mix very well but the goats win bigtime!

greysides

A question. How soon do you want to 'see' your trees?

Oak, Beech, Chestnut, etc are lovely trees but it would be a while before you have anything much to appreciate (20 years?). Faster growing trees like Poplar, Ash, Willow, Hazel, Eucalyptus and Birch will give you something to appreciate quicker (10 years). Some Crab Apples and you've blossom. Holly and you've berries. Field Maple should give autumn colour. I'm getting the impression it's a kind of garden you want but if I'm wrong you could plant the more ornamental to the fore and have them backed by the more commercial types. Pine can be a nice species too and evergreen. Garden varieties of some of those mentioned would be worth the extra if planted in selected spots as focal points. They could yield better shape, better blossom, autumn colour, more fruit/nuts, etc than the parent species. A mixture of sizes, shapes, growth patterns is likely to be more aesthetically pleasing.

If you're planting a wild flower meadow it will need cutting at the right moment to encourage self-seeding so tree position would need to be considered to allow practical mechanical cutting. Some trees, those with more open crowns, would be better for promoting growth underneath them.

80sDiesel

Alot of fab advice there. Alot to consider. Thanks very much for sharing your knowledge.

I am not after the commercial trees so the ones you mentioned look great. Did some research and they look fab. I am not too concerned with the time it takes them to grow. I am a patient man so am happy to have future generations appreciated what I tried to do.

80sDiesel

I decided to let the farmer have the land for a couple of years more as he was a long term leasee. I would have loved to start earlier but it was important to show respect to a very nice man.I have pretty much then decided to plant native oak but spaced out enough to make a nice meadow. I have learned so much here and will follow the threads in anticipation of my chance to have some fun and create my own little version of a native woodland.

It's not so much what you do now, but what you leave behind that matters.

SILVAMAN

80sDiesel wrote: »

I decided to let the farmer have the land for a couple of years more as he was a long term leasee. I would have loved to start earlier but it was important to show respect to a very nice man.I have pretty much then decided to plant native oak but spaced out enough to make a nice meadow. I have learned so much here and will follow the threads in anticipation of my chance to have some fun and create my own little version of a native woodland.

It's not so much what you do now, but what you leave behind that matters.

"only the actions of the just smell sweet, and blossom in their dust"

flatty

Nice to hear.
2k seems a great rent.
I have 30 acres if about half good grazing and half roughish (but going to clear at some point) rented for that.
I'd love to plant mine very much like you plan. There's four old ruin cottages on mine.

80sDiesel

I still am enjoying my research.
I now know all about the Yellow Rattle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKzE5t8Zkzc

brianiac

sounds like an idyllic spot.

I recently acquired a few acres and a bungalow which we have renovated and have been researching both planting trees and wildflower meadows.

we have approx 1/2 ac of lawn area to the front which i have sown with a mix from wildflowers .ie. It is a few hundred euro alright for the bag of seed which seemed a tad expensive however i wont have a lawnmover and meadow should be just cut twice/year from what the website says but all cuttings removed. Land should be prepared though, as the wildflowers can't compete with strong grass growth, so can't just fling seed into a field of grass and expect it to grow.

We cleared ~ 1/2 ac down to bare earth when there was a digger on site as well as a flame gun to keep weeds at bay, and then used roundup to clear persistant weeds. I dont like weedkillers and try avoid them but think the single application is warranted if it allows a nice wildflower meadow.

they might have specific advice for you being on a hillside but be warned that from my understanding the land needs preparation and 12ac seems like a lot of it. Perhaps specific areas within the land may be more feasible.

If you are looking for wildlife then native trees do seem to be the way to go. Future forests has a hedge mix i also purchased and planted recently composed of natives that provide fruit for native birds, bees and butterflies. Some are more shrubby (hazels, elder) but in your context perhaps could be planted in clumps providing quickish growing greenery within the landscape while the big trees grow on.

Another aspect to consider might be leafing out time. If you have late leafers (like ash) which also do not completely close off light they might provide better conditions for understory flowers which might mean a higher density of trees is possible, or a more successful wildflower meadow.
I'm no expert, so you'll need to do you own research

SILVAMAN

brianiac wrote: »

It is a few hundred euro alright for the bag of seed which seemed a tad expensive

Outrageous. Was that retail? Search online companies specialising in wildflower seeds. For example, a 4 stone bag of daffodil bulbs costs me €25-30. That's 1000 bulbs. I then see a 10 pack of daffodil bulbs on sale for €8.99. Fcuk that.

brianiac

you might indeed find some 'wildflower' seed at much lower prices. However i wanted ones of Irish provenance, natively adapted to irish weather and climate, and which will benefit irish fauna. Ultimately if tended appropriately it should be self seeding on a yearly basis and continue for a significant period of time. People i know spend thousands of euros on lawn mowers to cut an equivalent area of grass on a weekly basis. I'm happy enough to spend it - as long as it grows! Each to their own though.

Bulbs are a different matter. Can be cheaply pulled from the ground and divided. Seed from wildflowers has a lot of chaff in it that needs sorting and then needs drying etc. I suppose thats where some of the cost comes into play.

Apiarist

brianiac wrote: »

....It is a few hundred euro alright for the bag of seed .... Land should be prepared though....

We cleared ~ 1/2 ac down to bare earth when there was a digger on site as well as a flame gun to keep weeds at bay, and then used roundup to clear persistant weeds. 

I have planted native wild flowers on a 3/4 ac site and can confirm what brianiac says. Unless you already have a site suitable for wildflowers (i.e. where the grass has difficulty growing), you will have to strip the sod and burn and poison the remaining grass. For 12 ac, you will be looking for several thousands of euros for seeds alone, couple of barrels of Roundup and pyramid of grass sod suitable for a Pharaoh to bury somewhere. 
Trees are another matter. The grant mentioned above does not give you the money as far as I understand. It provides you with means to employ a forestry company which will come to plant the trees and will manage young trees for a few years after planting. You will have to provide adequate fencing to protect those trees (do you have deer in the area?), though there is another grant for that too. And you will have to provide the insurance for the trees. And for 25 years, you will have only partial control over your land because you will not be able to remove those trees before that (unless for thinning also done by the forestry company).

Apiarist

Another small note. If you care about biodiversity and such like, keep your existing hedges and plant new ones. They are great for birds, bees and small animals. Good luck with your land

Username John

SILVAMAN wrote: »

Outrageous. Was that retail? Search online companies specialising in wildflower seeds. For example, a 4 stone bag of daffodil bulbs costs me ?25-30. That's 1000 bulbs. I then see a 10 pack of daffodil bulbs on sale for ?8.99. Fcuk that.

Where you get the daffodil bulbs Silvaman?

80sDiesel

Thanks guys for all the continued advice.
So 5 months of research and I am at this stage.

Cut down the remaining spruce trees. If they fall they will take the stone walls with them and they aren't native.

Clean back the stone walls. Make them more obvious.

Let the grass grow. Want to see what kinds there are as a local farmer said he never saw it reseeded on the 40 years he drove past. Will use this time to tackle reeds and thistle. Plan is to dig them out. Don't think the land ever has had any herbicide.
When the traditional hay time comes I will use a flail mower to mulch the grass and disperse the developed grass seed. The mulched grass will fertilise the land.

Trees. I decided on quaking aspen ( native Irish trembling poplar) They should suit the cold damp hillside climate and they have a fantastic colour in Autumn and a lovely waterfall sound in the breeze during summer. Will plan about 30 spread out to see how they go.

Will plant crab apple trees on the old driveway in.

Will do a 1300 square metres around homestead to try out native wildflowers.

Whitethorn hedges.

Clean up old homestead. Maybe lime render the remaining walls. Thinking if I did build would I go for an eco house or a real traditional Irish farmstead.

That's for now. Back to researching.