Dublin Social cleansing?

dd972

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/dublin-s-inner-city-could-see-20m-regeneration-plan-1.2916891

“You cannot have the wealthiest corporate clients in Ireland, and some of them [the wealthiest] in the world, living beside a ghetto of social problems,” said a source who has read the proposals.''


I read this between the lines as an East London style regeneration wherein places like East Wall and Sherrif Street have been earmarked for gentrification and the poor currently there will be shipped out and priced out to the outer fringes of the city or further beyond.

Spanish Eyes

Buy up yer houses there now. Gentrification will net you a handsome profit. Buy, buy buy.

If they started with O'Connell Street, that would be good.

RasTa

I've lived in East Wall and Fairview for a good few years and this has to happen.

Hopefully they knock all the flats down and ship them out of Dublin.

Stealthfins

As long as neither side relocates to the west of Ireland it'll be grand.
Nothing worse than new money thinking they're better than everyone else.
Sure the shanty towns make you guy's look like toffs...

The good thing about old money is were not like those wannabe yaaaa yawwwwws.....

Society is gone sick it is.....

Peregrine

Read the full article properly rather than taking a quote criminally out of context like you're doing now.

In parallel, social services and education opportunities would be delivered in a more coherent fashion and, crucially, inner-city businesses, especially the financial and legal services companies of the IFSC and docklands, will be expected to provide pathways to employment.

“You cannot have the wealthiest corporate clients in Ireland, and some of them [the wealthiest] in the world, living beside a ghetto of social problems,” said a source who has read the proposals.

Wealthy companies had to move beyond commitment to corporate social responsibility, said the source.

dd972

Peregrine wrote: »

Read the full article properly rather than taking a quote criminally out of context like you're doing now.

The point is, who benefits? The higher echelons of Irish society detest the poor, always have done, always will do, the people who live in these enclaves probably stand more chance of being taken notice of if they riot.

Corporate Social responsibility? :pac:

aphex™

Funny. I can say from living in Dublin for 30+ years that the poor hate everybody. Why ya think they need private security in the IFSC?

kuntboy

I iz goin to get dem poshies who tink dat dey are better dan us wit der fancy wurds an shoite. Ah Jaysus Anto, giz a blem off dat heroin wud ya bud? Schtory What? Jayziz. Oill see ya afta, what? Schweeeerrr....

dsmythy

They've only lived there the few generations sure. How dare they jump in water near my apartment I bought.

Wanderer78

Can't bait class warfare!

newacc2015

dsmythy wrote: »

They've only lived there the few generations sure.

That is the very problem with the welfare system. It has created a system where 3/4 generations are living in social housing with no desire from generation to generation to better themselves and move into a higher paid private sector job in private sector housing.

The welfare system doesnt encourage them to go out and get a better education/job. Part of it is due to the education system that doesn't support them, but it is partly due to lack of desire. This project Im sure is trying to deal with this

Wanderer78

newacc2015 wrote: »

That is the very problem with the welfare system. It has created a system where 3/4 generations are living in social housing with no desire from generation to generation to better themselves and move into a higher paid private sector job in private sector housing.

The welfare system doesnt encourage them to go out and get a better education/job. Part of it is due to the education system that doesn't support them, but it is partly due to lack of desire. This project Im sure is trying to deal with this

long term unemployment has very complex root causes, which involves large scale failure in our social systems in dealing with these issues, even causing further exasperation them

aphex™

I often reflect how amazing it is that Eastern Europeans, Africans and Asians can come to Ireland, build themselves up and become a success while certain elements of Irish society seem to go backwards in the same amount of time.

Some of them come with nothing. Some have been persecuted and tortured.

I want to meet more people like that in the street. Not giz a euro der bud.

5rtytry56

aphex™ wrote: »

I want to meet more people like that in the street. Not giz a euro der bud.

me too. And not

got a luigh

fly_agaric

giz a euro der bud
got a luigh

my aching sides!

“You cannot have the wealthiest corporate clients in Ireland, and some of them [the wealthiest] in the world, living beside a ghetto of social problems,”

Seems to be common enough everywhere on earth. Once they have enough walls, high gates and guards they should be okay, hopefully.
edit: for the new year would prefer to see MNCs in particular paying more tax, rather than paying for "CSR" ethics-wash instead.

GreenFolder2

I don't want to see social cleansing / massive gentrification going on but something has to be done about Dublin City Centre. It is really a massive waste to just allow it to be in the state it is is in and it's not all down to social issues either.

I recently walked from Smithfield to O'Connell Street one Street behind the quayside and it is quite frankly an absolute kip. The buildings are falling apart areas like North King Street for example are just unbelievably bad.

The quays are also mostly totally unused. You can see evidence of historic use as shops but they're all gone, other than a little bit around the "Italian quarter" and a little bit near O'Connell before, they're just a depressing line of nothingness.

Large chunks of the north intercity have been absolute destroyed too. There's ugly, unimaginative, redbrick and similar structures of various areas just slammed into streets. I don't know what the hell they were thinking. Parnell Street?! Large chunks of Dorset Street etc etc ...what happened ? They weren't bombed during WWII.

The new developments in the docklands are fairly good but not amazing - we had the money and they should have been a lot more architectural.

Also there's a huge weird issue where you've basically got all the shopping jammed into two completely disconnected places. On the north side for some reason. It's all shoved up a side street off O'Connell Street - Henry St / Mary Street and basically all the other streets are scary and unattractive. The whole area around O'Connell St could be an absolutely cool shopping district but, it isn't..

And why does it always smell of Jey's Fluid!?! Can they not get something more pleasant to clean up? I notice this smell around Grafton Street too. It's a bit 1950s "farm yard" not 2016 shopping chic.

Then you've Grafton Street which to me over focused on one narrow street. They could do with putting a lot more effort into expanding if across the whole warren of streets around it - improving the paving, improving the look of the place and trying to make it into an actual district / quarter.
Also that new grey paving isn't very nice


Temple bar needs a good clean up and reinvigoration. It's no longer very artsy and it's just starting to look a bit rundown.

Meanwhile you've Smithfield which is like a ghost town. There's nothing there other than apartments a cinema and a sort of attempting to be snooty supermarket. The area behind it is literally falling down. Manor Street and Stoneybatter is nice but it's not integrated into Smithfield other than via a scary rundown street and Collins Barracks isn't tied into Mannor St because the lower end of Arbour Hill looks horribly rundown.

I walked around Cork City Centre and it's utterly pristine in comparison and all or at least most of the buildings are in use and it feels safe. Dublin really doesn't.

If you add the social problems, mostly very visible junkies and harassment of people for cash - it really doesn't help Dublin.

It always strikes me as a city with a lot of potential and no plan. Just random stuff happening all in isolation without any vision for a city. It's more like just a bigger version of a rundown country town.

Sorry if this is a bit harsh but that's how I see the place.

Perhaps having city councils with actual power to drive plans might help.

We've very odd local government in Ireland and a tendency to try to undermine cities and towns by removing any normal level of autonomous local government.

A massive reboot of urban government is needed in Ireland or the cities simply will not ever develop properly.

pablo128

Gentrify Dublin city centre? I assume the idea is to have well off folk going in to all the nice posh shops, spending a lot of money, and getting a Luas or Dublin bus back to the more affluent suburbs.

Not going to happen. This is what happens when you make it awkward for motorists to visit the city centre. I, as a motorist have no reason and even less desire to visit a city centre where I'm made to feel not welcome.

GreenFolder2

The idea would be to make it a livable space - much like it was 100+ years ago and much like modern European cities.

Dublin is basically turned inside out. City centre areas that should be the most desirable places to live are anything but because of a suburbanisation drive that kicked off in the 50s and a persistent notion that inner city = tenements/slums.

You've also still got a strong notion in Ireland that apartment living isn't something desirable or permanent and it's more of a "needs must" phase on the way to a "proper house". That's likely why we've never really had proper apartments.

That kind of thinking still hasn't really ever gone away.

newacc2015

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

Large chunks of the north intercity have been absolute destroyed too. There's ugly, unimaginative, redbrick and similar structures of various areas just slammed into streets. I don't know what the hell they were thinking. Parnell Street?! Large chunks of Dorset Street etc etc ...what happened ? They weren't bombed during WWII.

The new developments in the docklands are fairly good but not amazing - we had the money and they should have been a lot more architectural.

These are your generic 3 storey DCC houses, which they threw up all over city. They are on Dorset St and even on Pearse St. They look so out of place considering all around them is amazing apartments. Then there is a strip of awkward looking DCC houses. It is the same on Smithfield Sq. Mid-rise luxury apartments across from awkward generic DCC houses.

Dublin wasn't bombed, but what it faced was probably worse. A lot of the city fell into decay. If you look at old pictures of Dublin, you will see a lot of older houses were missing upper floors. You can still see it in Smithfield, where there is a shop on the ground floor and the remains of windows on the upper floor. While a lot of Europe was flattened in 1940-1945 and slowly rebuilt up until the 1960s. Dublin was falling into decay up until the 1980s/1990s. So you have houses not lived in since the 1930s, with protection orders ie you can't renovate them without spending millions on a simple house.

It is hard to employ award winning architects if you can only build 5/6 storeys. The design costs per apartment would be huge. Where as if you built a 40-80 storey apartment block as you would in NYC or London, the design cost is spread over hundreds of apartments versus a few dozen in Dublin.

If apartment blocks were 30 storeys high in the docklands, you would see developers spending the money to get an amazing design firm to design them. It is hard to justify the cost when you have a 5 storey apartment block. Look at the fact KW spent the money on designing a unique apartment block, as there was the scale to do so

http://www.thejournal.ie/capital-dock-development-plans-2027892-Apr2015/

Spanish Eyes

@GreenFolder2.

Excellent post, but when I see it written down like that it is quite depressing.

Dublin must be one of the worst capital cities for this type of neglect of its core.

You are so right, there is such urban decay in most places outside of the Henry/Mary Street axis. Even the planned conversion of the Fruit Market hasn't happened yet, despite plans announced a few years ago. I could go on, but everywhere I look there are either boxy similar apartment blocks plonked down anywhere, and derelict houses in between.

Some vision is definitely needed to sort this all out. The area North of the Liffey with the new LUAS and Grangegorman campus is just ripe for redevelopment. I don't know whether it is lack of funds or planning delays that is causing the neglect. Anyway, I'm just having a bit of a rant.

South of the river around Grafton Street is doing well though. North/South divide again I suppose. I just wish they had pedestrianised South William Street while they were at all the road closures for the LUAS.

I dunno. But I am pretty fed up looking at all the decay around us. Owen Keegan as city manager would need to live and socialise North of the River to get a feel for what needs to be done. No point in sitting in his bunker with his bicycle helmet at the ready. Action is needed!

prinzeugen

newacc2015 wrote: »

Dublin wasn't bombed, .

Yes it was. The North Strand/ Amiens St, Terenure (including the street I live on), Dun Laoghaire and a bit on the South Circular Rd were all hit by the Luftwaffe.

The West German government paid for Ballymun as compensation.

listermint

pablo128 wrote: »

Gentrify Dublin city centre? I assume the idea is to have well off folk going in to all the nice posh shops, spending a lot of money, and getting a Luas or Dublin bus back to the more affluent suburbs.

Not going to happen. This is what happens when you make it awkward for motorists to visit the city centre. I, as a motorist have no reason and even less desire to visit a city centre where I'm made to feel not welcome.

Name a city where motorists are actively encouraged to go into the city itself...


This nonsense has to stop. City's aren't for cars sorry mate it's not the 80s

Singer

prinzeugen wrote: »

The West German government paid for Ballymun as compensation.

I am pretty sure this is an urban myth, I've never been able to find anything to substantiate it. Open to correction though!

prinzeugen

Singer wrote: »

I am pretty sure this is an urban myth, I've never been able to find anything to substantiate it. Open to correction though!

There is a couple of articles that say the Nazi government paid £9000 in 1943 and the West German government paid £327,000 in 1958.

I am 99% sure that the components for the flats were supplied from the "Plattenbau" production lines in West Germany. If they came as a gift or were paid for I am not sure.

i wish theyd hurry this up

John_Rambo

pablo128 wrote: »

Gentrify Dublin city centre? I assume the idea is to have well off folk going in to all the nice posh shops, spending a lot of money, and getting a Luas or Dublin bus back to the more affluent suburbs.

Not going to happen. This is what happens when you make it awkward for motorists to visit the city centre. I, as a motorist have no reason and even less desire to visit a city centre where I'm made to feel not welcome.

It happened. And it happens every day. Motorists get the Luas, bus, DART and cycle to the city centre all the time.

the_syco

dsmythy wrote: »

They've only lived there the few generations sure.

Do they own the place that they live in?

prinzeugen

John_Rambo wrote: »

It happened. And it happens every day. Motorists get the Luas, bus, DART and cycle to the city centre all the time.

There is vast parts of Dublin that don't have Dart, Luas and a poor bus service. And people that can not cycle.

All that will happen is, it will drive customers to the out of town shopping that already exists.

Businesses will follow and the city centre will need the tourist to stay afloat.

The guy fecked Dun Laoghaire. And he seems hell bent on killing Dublin city centre as well!

Pepe LeFrits

As I recall the majority of city centre business income comes from people who walk, cycle and use public transport. People who drive spend the most but the number of them is smaller than the other groups.

The trend is increasingly towards people moving back into the city from the burbs so the city centre will be fine. More pedestrianisation is needed to cater for the increased volumes of foot traffic though.

newacc2015

the_syco wrote: »

Do they own the place that they live in?

AFAIK it depends on the development. DCC has banned the sale of housing in some developments to residents, while in a lot of developments it is a mix of DCC and resident owned.

Generally every few decades a ton of social housing is pawned off to residents under the pretence it is cheaper for the taxpayer or the right thing to do etc. In reality whoever is in power thinks they wont get elected and pawns off the housing stock to win votes.

It makes it a lot harder to redevelop bad housing developments, when some of them are resident owned eg those horrific houses on Dorset St in front of the mater.

Dyr

newacc2015 wrote: »

AFAIK it depends on the development. DCC has banned the sale of housing in some developments to residents, while in a lot of developments it is a mix of DCC and resident owned.

Generally every few decades a ton of social housing is pawned off to residents under the pretence it is cheaper for the taxpayer or the right thing to do etc. In reality whoever is in power thinks they wont get elected and pawns off the housing stock to win votes.

It makes it a lot harder to redevelop bad housing developments, when some of them are resident owned eg those horrific houses on Dorset St in front of the mater.

The residents in those "horrific houses" seem to be quite happy with them. Perhaps you should ask them if they want to be redeveloped, and then explain what you actually mean when you say "redeveloped".

tomofson

aphex™ wrote: »

I often reflect how amazing it is that Eastern Europeans, Africans and Asians can come to Ireland, build themselves up and become a success while certain elements of Irish society seem to go backwards in the same amount of time.

Some of them come with nothing. Some have been persecuted and tortured.

I want to meet more people like that in the street. Not giz a euro der bud.

Because those certain elements of irish society face irish societies contempt the most, there is no race card for those people to play and no PC brigade to hide behind when they face the prejudices they have to deal with it.

pablo128

Bambi wrote: »

The residents in those "horrific houses" seem to be quite happy with them. Perhaps you should ask them if they want to be redeveloped, and then explain what you actually mean when you say "redeveloped".

He means fcuk them out and send them to live in Leitrim, and sell their 'modern trendy townhouse' to the highest bidder.

aphex™

tomofson wrote: »

Because those certain elements of irish society face irish societies contempt the most, there is no race card for those people to play and no PC brigade to hide behind when they face the prejudices they have to deal with it.

No. They don't face more prejudice than refugees. They have small problems compared to refugees or just anyone relocating country with nothing. They are given free education, low cost housing and welfare by the state. It's what you do with it is most important.

Dyr

aphex™ wrote: »

No. They don't face more prejudice than refugees. They have small problems compared to refugees or just anyone relocating country with nothing. They are given free education, low cost housing and welfare by the state. It's what you do with it is most important.

What have farmers got to do with this?

Pkiernan

Those poor misunderstood junkie rapists.

alastair

newacc2015 wrote: »

Generally every few decades a ton of social housing is pawned off to residents under the pretence it is cheaper for the taxpayer or the right thing to do etc. In reality whoever is in power thinks they wont get elected and pawns off the housing stock to win votes.

It makes it a lot harder to redevelop bad housing developments, when some of them are resident owned eg those horrific houses on Dorset St in front of the mater.

The houses on Dorset street are far from horrific. They're the usual high standard DCC build quality - better than most private developments in that regard.

There's nothing to stop DCC redeveloping the public stock houses there, but tbh, they don't need any redevelopment. They're good houses.

listermint

alastair wrote: »

The houses on Dorset street are far from horrific. They're the usual high standard DCC build quality - better than most private developments in that regard.

There's nothing to stop DCC redeveloping the public stock houses there, but tbh, they don't need any redevelopment. They're good houses.

Which ones? Dorset street has zero connection to the front rear or side of the mater.

alastair

listermint wrote: »

Which ones? Dorset street has zero connection to the front rear or side of the mater.

They're talking about the row on Dorset St, between Eccles St and Synott St.