Is forestry driving up land prices ?

handlemaster

http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/forestry-enviro/concern-in-cavan-as-53-of-forestry-is-being-planted-by-non-farmers-35305238.html



it seems from this article prices of poorer or small plots of land are been driven up by forestry investment. whats the situation around the country are land prices been affected ?

djmc

I know of where forestry is not allowed on designated land that land has been for sale with zero interest .
Any that did sell averaged around 1000 euro an acre so imo forestry does inflate land prices but I dont think it does much for the area in general because people dont usually live or work where the forestry is planted

handlemaster

djmc wrote: »

I know of where forestry is not allowed on designated land that land has been for sale with zero interest .
Any that did sell averaged around 1000 euro an acre so imo forestry does inflate land prices but I dont think it does much for the area in general because people dont usually live or work where the forestry is planted

But in areas where it is been allowed .. it appears to have had àn effect according to tge report.

restive

I am pretty sure it's not the price of cattle.

handlemaster

restive wrote: »

I am pretty sure it's not the price of cattle.

Could be sheep

ganmo

handlemaster wrote: »

But in areas where it is been allowed .. it appears to have had àn effect according to tge report.

the country needs more forestry and that needs land, the price they pay is well below the average land price so rather than saying they are driving up land prices id say theyre putting a floor on it

blue5000

I suppose to answer the question you'd have to look on the borders of SAC land at land prices in and out of the SAC that sold. In reality though 4k is a rough value of the full forestry premium, it's not worth much more than that to plant it IMO.

djmc

ganmo wrote: »

the country needs more forestry and that needs land, the price they pay is well below the average land price so rather than saying they are driving up land prices id say theyre putting a floor on it

thats it in a nutshell I would agree 100%
I dont think its worth much more than 4000 an acre either for planting either but in saying that I have seen lads plant very good land because they like trees or dont want to sell it .

snow_lover

land prices have fallen this past few years overall

no reason land for anything but dairying or tillage should be more than the price of land for forestry as there is a bigger return from trees than cattle or sheep

land has decoupled from the rest of the property market

forestry is keeping a floor under prices as someone else stated earlier

handlemaster

snow_lover wrote: »

land prices have fallen this past few years overall

no reason land for anything but dairying or tillage should be more than the price of land for forestry as there is a bigger return from trees than cattle or sheep

land has decoupled from the rest of the property market

forestry is keeping a floor under prices as someone else stated earlier

But not all land is equal , even within a small area. Future one off housing etc

cute geoge

If you can get 4k for rushy/forestry ground grab it and run .I have a share of this ground rented and what i make out of it is Zero with cattle grazing ,lucky to get a few months rough grazing .I only have it rented so i dont go over 170 in the nitrates other then that it is a complete waste of time .Funny enough i give €1200/year for 20 acres which is a rob only i have entitlements to cover it

snow_lover

one off housing will be greatly reduced in the future ( its been a mess from the start ) so land will be worth what can be made of it in the majority of cases , anyway , people are moving to the cities and this will excellerate going forward

handlemaster

snow_lover wrote: »

one off housing will be greatly reduced in the future ( its been a mess from the start ) so land will be worth what can be made of it in the majority of cases , anyway , people are moving to the cities and this will excellerate going forward

I thin its always works both ways people move to cities and some people move back to there area. There are others who never move

djmc

The price of land can vairy on lots of things some at higher elevations will be slower to grow trees
Other places might have future development potential here in Kerry land near Killarney would be worth more than most other parts of the county because it a desirable place to live and property prices are higher.
Land around muckross is not good but because it's near Killarney national park it's very expensive per acre
I have seen over 10000 an acre paid for cleared forestry ground just on speculated future development and other ground where trees have failed because the ground was so poor it couldn't grow anything.

djmc

cute geoge wrote: »

If you can get 4k for rushy/forestry ground grab it and run .I have a share of this ground rented and what i make out of it is Zero with cattle grazing ,lucky to get a few months rough grazing .I only have it rented so i dont go over 170 in the nitrates other then that it is a complete waste of time .Funny enough i give €1200/year for 20 acres which is a rob only i have entitlements to cover it

Or plant it and get over 226 an acre for 15 year's tax free and have your trees to fell and get a lump sum tax free for your retirement would be worth more if you lived long enough to collect it all. and you would still own the land to pass on to the next generation.

C0N0R

djmc wrote: »

cute geoge wrote: »

If you can get 4k for rushy/forestry ground grab it and run .I have a share of this ground rented and what i make out of it is Zero with cattle grazing ,lucky to get a few months rough grazing .I only have it rented so i dont go over 170 in the nitrates other then that it is a complete waste of time .Funny enough i give €1200/year for 20 acres which is a rob only i have entitlements to cover it

Or plant it and get over 226 an acre for 15 year's tax free and have your trees to fell and get a lump sum tax free for your retirement would be worth more if you lived long enough to collect it all. and you would still own the land to pass on to the next generation.

But what do you do with it after you fell the trees? To plant it again costs a lot if I'm not mistaken and the second crop takes a lot longer to grow and is it possible to get a grant on it? Very hard to take land out of forestry

rangler1

C0N0R wrote: »

But what do you do with it after you fell the trees? To plant it again costs a lot if I'm not mistaken and the second crop takes a lot longer to grow and is it possible to get a grant on it? Very hard to take land out of forestry

You're right, evergreens especially ruin land, they don't even suit wildlife, no grants at the moment on replanting which is compulsory

C0N0R

rangler1 wrote: »

C0N0R wrote: »

But what do you do with it after you fell the trees? To plant it again costs a lot if I'm not mistaken and the second crop takes a lot longer to grow and is it possible to get a grant on it? Very hard to take land out of forestry

You're right, evergreens especially ruin land, they don't even suit wildlife, no grants at the moment on replanting which is compulsory

By all means planting bad ground is an option but people should really think carefully before planting good productive ground, short term gain is the way I see it. Each to their own etc etc

Keepgrowing

I don't know if it's keeping up land values but it sure devalues land.

I've 50 acres within 3-5 of clear felling and the land it's on is close to valueless. My plan was to fell it and sell land but it looks like I'll have to replant and let someone else reap the rewards.

djmc

C0N0R wrote: »

But what do you do with it after you fell the trees? To plant it again costs a lot if I'm not mistaken and the second crop takes a lot longer to grow and is it possible to get a grant on it? Very hard to take land out of forestry

Like I said pass it to the next generation there is a lot of clearfelled ground around here that hasn't been replanted
As a return on investment it still makes more money over twenty years to plant it than sell it at 4k per acre.
If is under new ownership are the new owners entitled to get grants or sell it for whatever it's worth.
I'm not advocating planting but can see why it makes sense for people to do so with the return from farming at the moment.
It's a crop like anything else but profitability depends on timber prices years from now.

poor farmer

blue5000 wrote: »

I suppose to answer the question you'd have to look on the borders of SAC land at land prices in and out of the SAC that sold. In reality though 4k is a rough value of the full forestry premium, it's not worth much more than that to plant it IMO.

Could you expand a bit on this.
I am living/farming in an area of marginal land with a good bit of forestry.

farisfat

Theirs alot more bad farmers thán bad land.I have some heavy land away from the yard, it's grazed from the middle of febuary with weanlings nearly every year and two cut's of silage and grazed until mid november.
A little bit of planning and using machinery with low ground pressure tyres is all it takes.
Alot of land being planted around it at the moment in my opinion it's turning 7 grand a acre land into nearly being worthless

Grueller

farisfat wrote: »

Theirs alot more bad farmers thán bad land.I have some heavy land away from the yard, it's grazed from the middle of febuary with weanlings nearly every year and two cut's of silage and grazed until mid november.
A little bit of planning and using machinery with low ground pressure tyres is all it takes.
Alot of land being planted around it at the moment in my opinion it's turning 7 grand a acre land into nearly being worthless

No offence, but if you can graze weanlings in February and cut silage twice and graze into November, you have no bad land my good man. Walk a mile in my shoes comes to mind here, as in try really bad land and see is forestry better.

farisfat

Grueller wrote: »

No offence, but if you can graze weanlings in February and cut silage twice and graze into November, you have no bad land my good man. Walk a mile in my shoes comes to mind here, as in try really bad land and see is forestry better.

The land is heavy as i said it take's a bit of planning in wet weather their given 24 hr blocks, if this isin't done the land gets poached.
All of the land around it is set grazed which dosen't suit the ground.

Grueller

farisfat wrote: »

The land is heavy as i said it take's a bit of planning in wet weather their given 24 hr blocks, if this isin't done the land gets poached.
All of the land around it is set grazed which dosen't suit the ground.

I get ya and am genuinely not trying to pick a fight. I have a share of that type of land too. We call it macamores here in Wexford. Takes minding but grows grass like no other.
I have a mate in Leitrim that was farming part time on 140 acres. 40 poorer than any land down here in Wexford. He planted this because he was spending massive man hours that he didn't have minding it. He says it was the best thing he ever done. He has an income every year and the rest of his farm is benefitting from the extra time and resources that he is spending on it.

blue5000

djmc wrote: »

Or plant it and get over 226 an acre for 15 year's tax free and have your trees to fell and get a lump sum tax free for your retirement would be worth more if you lived long enough to collect it all. and you would still own the land to pass on to the next generation.

poor farmer wrote: »

Could you expand a bit on this.
I am living/farming in an area of marginal land with a good bit of forestry.

When I planted cutaway bog forestry premiums were for 20 years, but if you multiply 226 by 15 you get €3390, ok it's not €4k but the trees are going to have a value after 15 years. My figure of 4k was a ballpark 20 years of premiums of roughly €200.

razor8

What valve is land that has been felled and replanted with dales?

I assume no premiums can be claimed every again?

arctictree

I read everywhere that a condition of felling is replanting. Yet all the clear fells I see around here seem to be just left idle. What's up with that?

croot

farisfat wrote: »

Theirs alot more bad farmers thán bad land.I have some heavy land away from the yard, it's grazed from the middle of febuary with weanlings nearly every year and two cut's of silage and grazed until mid november.
A little bit of planning and using machinery with low ground pressure tyres is all it takes.
Alot of land being planted around it at the moment in my opinion it's turning 7 grand a acre land into nearly being worthless

I don't know where you are based but that sweeping statement is a good bit off the mark. Absolutely no chance of getting cattle out in February in most of the North West as its just to wet. Management really doesn't come into it.

farisfat

croot wrote: »

I don't know where you are based but that sweeping statement is a good bit off the mark. Absolutely no chance of getting cattle out in February in most of the North West as its just to wet. Management really doesn't come into it.

Nothing sweeping about it that's the way is with me and most of the lads in my group here in the north west.
Cows out from mid Feb on of grazing in bad weather.
Weanlings out full time.
Your welcome to visit pm me if u want.

tiny timy

It will be interesting to see how prices for land goes when the government ask farmers to grow willow for renewable energy for biomass.

charolais0153

croot wrote: »

I don't know where you are based but that sweeping statement is a good bit off the mark. Absolutely no chance of getting cattle out in February in most of the North West as its just to wet. Management really doesn't come into it.

Where in the north west...a bit like teagasc having demo farm in athenry in the west:rolleyes: I was on land the other day that wouldn't support a suckler cow in June never mind weanlings in feb

handlemaster

http://www.roscommonpeople.ie/property/52-property/highly-successful-trading-year-with-cathal-o-brien-auctioneer

This auctioneer says 5k per acre for forestry land in roscommon. I guess thats the marker .. bottom price per acre there

barnaman

tiny timy wrote: »

It will be interesting to see how prices for land goes when the government ask farmers to grow willow for renewable energy for biomass.

handlemaster wrote: »

http://www.roscommonpeople.ie/property/52-property/highly-successful-trading-year-with-cathal-o-brien-auctioneer

This auctioneer says 5k per acre for forestry land in roscommon. I guess thats the marker .. bottom price per acre there

alot of land in roscommon making around the 4k an acre and less

http://www.daft.ie/roscommon/commercial-property-for-sale/agricultural-farm-land-for-sale/crosshill-lough-allen-view-keadue-roscommon-210572/

http://www.daft.ie/roscommon/commercial-property-for-sale/agricultural-farm-land-for-sale/894-acres-at-cloggarnagh-frenchpark-roscommon-350394/

handlemaster

barnaman wrote: »

alot of land in roscommon making around the 4k an acre and less

http://www.daft.ie/roscommon/commercial-property-for-sale/agricultural-farm-land-for-sale/crosshill-lough-allen-view-keadue-roscommon-210572/

http://www.daft.ie/roscommon/commercial-property-for-sale/agricultural-farm-land-for-sale/894-acres-at-cloggarnagh-frenchpark-roscommon-350394/

Interesting I wonder if that is just asking and not reflective of sale price. Then you have properties that have building potential or good location to a town thrown in which might make it harder to price .. such as this one

https://touch.daft.ie/roscommon/commercial-property-for-sale/agricultural-farm-land-for-sale/salmons-lane-ballyleague-roscommon-309067

handlemaster

dodo mommy wrote: »

I hear a neighbour is planning on doing a bit of planting. This planting would be right on top of my house and sheds can I object to it?

On what grounds. .. ? I think that's for another topic

blue5000

handlemaster wrote: »

On what grounds. .. ? I think that's for another topic

Started a new thread here

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057690619#