Airbnb of dedicated rental properties subject to planning permission

KyussBeeshop

Housing minister has confirmed that landlords are not allowed to use AirBnB without planning permission:

Landlords are not allowed to use Airbnb for the short-term letting of their properties unless they get planning permission for bed and breakfast or hotel status, Minister for Housing Simon Coveney has confirmed.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/landlords-need-permission-for-airbnb-lets-minister-confirms-1.2914873

So this means all landlords currently using AirBnB without planning permission, will need to stop using AirBnB, and either seek planning permission or make other use of their property - otherwise they will be illegally renting out their property.

Seems to warrant its own thread, but if mods disagree please feel free to move or merge elsewhere.

Tigerandahalf

What does this mean for people who have bookings with airbnb hosts. I presume they will be honoured?

KyussBeeshop

I guess ask for proof that your host has planning permission for AirBnB - and if not, report them to the council for putting up an illegal rental.

porsche boy

Airb&b, sorry don't know it. I use Eirbee&bee. Totally different business model.

Tigerandahalf

KyussBeeshop wrote: »

I guess ask for proof that your host has planning permission for AirBnB - and if not, report them to the council for putting up an illegal rental.

I couldn't care if they have planning permission as long as my booking gets honoured.

It has always been a big reservation of mine that a host could cancel at the last minute and this sort of thing isn't going to help.

gctest50

Seems to like getting things in without having to fill out all them forms

"which is a good way of dealing with this, without having to go through legislative change"

http://bit.ly/2i6QoSu

We have examined changing the planning regulations concerning Airbnb. An Bord Pleanála made a decision consistent with a local authority's decision, and which I have endorsed and supported. That is, that if somebody is using Airbnb for short-term or immediate-term letting, and if they are essentially behaving like a B&B or hotel owner, they need to get planning permission for a commercial operation of that sort. That is very different to somebody who is allowing a family to stay in their house for two or three weeks on a summer holiday through Airbnb. We need to make a distinction between the two. We have written to local authorities to support that distinction in planning enforcement, which is a good way of dealing with this, without having to go through legislative change

murphaph

First of all, Mr. Coveney is not a judge of the state. He is merely stating his opinion as to whether airbnb is kosher without planning permission.

Anyway...Doing 55 in a 50 zone is illegal too but enforcement is the problem. Councils have astonishingly few planning enforcement officers. It would take them decades to get around to everyone and then new ones would spring up. It'd be like painting the Forth rail bridge.

It would not present a huge obstacle for landlords of standalone houses to actually formally declare themselves B&Bs. Apparently for 4 or fewer bedrooms no change of use pp is required. The tax treatment is presumably fairer too.

Graham

murphaph wrote: »

It would not present a huge obstacle for landlords of standalone houses to actually formally declare themselves B&Bs. Apparently for 4 or fewer bedrooms no change of use pp is required. The tax treatment is presumably fairer too.

I would assume any attempt to convince the planning department you were running as a B&B rather than a short-term letting would necessitate someone living in the property.

KyussBeeshop

murphaph wrote: »

First of all, Mr. Coveney is not a judge of the state. He is merely stating his opinion as to whether airbnb is kosher without planning permission.

Anyway...Doing 55 in a 50 zone is illegal too but enforcement is the problem. Councils have astonishingly few planning enforcement officers. It would take them decades to get around to everyone and then new ones would spring up. It'd be like painting the Forth rail bridge.

It would not present a huge obstacle for landlords of standalone houses to actually formally declare themselves B&Bs. Apparently for 4 or fewer bedrooms no change of use pp is required. The tax treatment is presumably fairer too.

No, what Coveney has stated was not mere opinion, that is the official interpretation of the current laws - as backed up by the recent judgement by An Bord Pleanála.

The ruling by ABP was against an apartment with just 2 bedrooms - what you are stating is false, planning permission is required for 'material change of use', i.e:

If you want to make a material (that is, substantial) change to the use of land or buildings which will have an actual or potential impact on neighbours or the local community, then you will need planning permission.

4 bedrooms or less, the planning authorities are now considering long-term AirBnb rentals a material change of use.

To be classed as a BnB, under the planning authorities current interpretation of the law, landlords need to apply for planning permission - there is no easy 'loophole' here.

murphaph

Graham wrote: »

I would assume any attempt to convince the planning department you were running as a B&B rather than a short-term letting would necessitate someone living in the property.

Hmmm not sure. I stayed in a Bord Failte approved B&B where the owner lived down the road and just came up to cook breakfast.

To be honest though people will mostly just do this without planning. In Germany there's a saying- "wo kein Kläger, da kein Richter" or "no plaintiff, no judge". In the case of standalone houses it will not have any effect on the neighbours, so most won't complain. And airbnb is not the only way to short term let online.

blobert

Just interested on people's opinions, if you did want to buy a small house which you were planning to rent exclusively as an airbnb property how complex it would be to get planning changed to this effect and what the potential downsides would be?

Graham

blobert wrote: »

Just interested on people's opinions, if you did want to buy a small house which you were planning to rent exclusively as an airbnb property how complex it would be to get planning changed to this effect and what the potential downsides would be?

Relatively easy to apply for permission.
Unlikely to be granted.

murphaph

KyussBeeshop wrote: »

No, what Coveney has stated was not mere opinion, that is the official interpretation of the current laws - as backed up by the recent judgement by An Bord Pleanála.

The ruling by ABP was against an apartment with just 2 bedrooms - what you are stating is false, planning permission is required for 'material change of use', i.e:

If you want to make a material (that is, substantial) change to the use of land or buildings which will have an actual or potential impact on neighbours or the local community, then you will need planning permission.

4 bedrooms or less, the planning authorities are now considering long-term AirBnb rentals a material change of use.

To be classed as a BnB, under the planning authorities current interpretation of the law, landlords need to apply for planning permission - there is no easy 'loophole' here.

Citizens information is wrong then. They state pp only required for more than 4 guest bedrooms: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/planning_permission/planning_perm_altering_a_house.html

It was an apartment that ABP had a problem with, not a house.

Graham

murphaph wrote: »

Hmmm not sure. I stayed in a Bord Failte approved B&B where the owner lived down the road and just came up to cook breakfast.

To be honest though people will mostly just do this without planning. In Germany there's a saying- "wo kein Kläger, da kein Richter" or "no plaintiff, no judge". In the case of standalone houses it will not have any effect on the neighbours, so most won't complain. And airbnb is not the only way to short term let online.

Not sure the German references are relevant.

If I were a planning enforcement officer I'd be looking into getting data directly from airbnb. Maybe follow that to with a bulk enforcement notice mailing pointing out the potential €5000 fine on summary conviction for ignoring it.

Alternatively just send the enforcement notice whenever a complains is received.

KyussBeeshop

murphaph wrote: »

Citizens information is wrong then. They state pp only required for more than 4 guest bedrooms: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/planning_permission/planning_perm_altering_a_house.html

It was an apartment that ABP had a problem with, not a house.

Citizens Information state an example, and the ruling by ABP has shown that example does not apply in the case of AirBnB rentals.

murphaph

Graham wrote: »

Not sure the German references are relevant.

If I were a planning enforcement officer I'd be looking into getting data directly from airbnb. Maybe follow that to with a bulk enforcement notice mailing pointing out the potential €5000 fine on summary conviction for ignoring it.

Alternatively just send the enforcement notice whenever a complains is received.

Once again, airbnb is just one channel. This will turn out to be unenforceable, like so much Irish legislation. Look at how people drive on a motorway in Ireland for multiple examples of unenforced laws.

The German reference was just a figure of speech by the way!

Graham

murphaph wrote: »

Once again, airbnb is just one channel.

I'm sure it will be easy enough to issue enforcement notices whatever the channel. I can't imagine there will be any shortage of corroborating complaints from neighbours in areas where short-term lettings are most prevalent.

murphaph

KyussBeeshop wrote: »

Citizens Information state an example, and the ruling by ABP has shown that example does not apply in the case of AirBnB rentals.

In that particular case. DCC stated themselves that these things are case by case.

When the first airbnb house with 4 or fewer bedrooms is deemed illegal by ABP come back to me.

murphaph

Graham wrote: »

I'm sure it will be easy enough to issue enforcement notices whatever the channel. I can't imagine there will be any shortage of corroborating complaints from neighbours in areas where short-term lettings are most prevalent.

I don't know. I wouldn't complain unless there was something to complain about. A few tourists coming and going would not even register with me but I wouldn't be a curtain twitcher so maybe I'm out of touch.

A far bigger risk would be getting an antisocial long term tenant for a neighbour IMO.

Graham

murphaph wrote: »

In that particular case. DCC stated themselves that these things are case by case.

Sounds like the minister clarified the position for the councils earlier today

During the debate, the Minister said Airbnb “should not be facilitating people to use properties that are not their homes effectively as B&Bs, without having to go through the procedures that every other B&B must go through, including standards, inspections and tax treatment”.

liam7831

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I couldn't care if they have planning permission as long as my booking gets honoured.

It has always been a big reservation of mine that a host could cancel at the last minute and this sort of thing isn't going to help.

I can see it being cancelled

KyussBeeshop

murphaph wrote: »

Once again, airbnb is just one channel. This will turn out to be unenforceable, like so much Irish legislation. Look at how people drive on a motorway in Ireland for multiple examples of unenforced laws.

The German reference was just a figure of speech by the way!

It's pretty easy to enforce really. All the authorities have to do is identify the popular channels people use for illegal short-term rentals - i.e. centralized websites with a large database of properties, easily allowing identification of all landlords - and then force the most popular of those sites to hand over the information, cross-reference it with the property database, and then start extracting fines.

If the websites are popular enough for tourists to find in large numbers, they're popular enough for the authorities to find.

There you go. The vast majority of illegal short-term rentals would be done with, and then illegally renting out would no longer be worth the risk for landlords.

K.Flyer

Seems to be discrimination against AirBnB, probably for tax reasons and because it falls between PRTB and Bord Failte type Guest House and Hotels.
Instead of deeming it all illegal, why don't they just figure out how to legalise it as its own industry.

Graham

There's a few more tidbits from the examiner:

Simon Coveney said he had written to local authorities to ensure Airbnb providers were not operating like B&Bs or hotel owners.

Mr Coveney told the Seanad that efforts were under way to clampdown on homestay providers operating like hotels.

Mr Coveney took the unprecedented step of warning Airbnb yesterday that the company “should not be replacing permanent tenancies”.

Tigger

Rates
Commercial rates are the real elephant in the room
Here

KyussBeeshop

KyussBeeshop wrote: »

Housing minister has confirmed that landlords are not allowed to use AirBnB without planning permission:

Landlords are not allowed to use Airbnb for the short-term letting of their properties unless they get planning permission for bed and breakfast or hotel status, Minister for Housing Simon Coveney has confirmed.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/landlords-need-permission-for-airbnb-lets-minister-confirms-1.2914873

So this means all landlords currently using AirBnB without planning permission, will need to stop using AirBnB, and either seek planning permission or make other use of their property - otherwise they will be illegally renting out their property.

Seems to warrant its own thread, but if mods disagree please feel free to move or merge elsewhere.

Nobody cares.

Why is your new user name almost the same as your older one?

Grolschevik

Amos Cold Photo wrote:

Nobody cares.

I do.

Great to see.
The airb&b situation in Ireland is essentially a black market economy threatening jobs & legitimate businesses.

K.Flyer

Augeo wrote: »

Great to see.
The airb&b situation in Ireland is essentially a black market economy threatening jobs & legitimate businesses.

How?
Its no different to landlords letting their properties, but only for shorter terms or home owners letting a room out.
Obviously its a business model that works giving people a broader choice to pick from. Government just needs to work out how to make it all legal and bring the finances into the tax net rather than knee jerk "shut it down" reactions.

Graham

K.Flyer wrote: »

How?
Its no different to landlords letting their properties, but only for shorter terms or home owners letting a room out.

It's very different, it's repurposing residential accommodation for holiday lettings.

Tigger

K.Flyer wrote: »

How?
Its no different to landlords letting their properties, but only for shorter terms or home owners letting a room out.
Obviously its a business model that works giving people a broader choice to pick from. Government just needs to work out how to make it all legal and bring the finances into the tax net rather than knee jerk "shut it down" reactions.

They're not gonna shut it down
The people who what to do on demand short term leggings will look for planning change of use
It will be granted and then they will have to pay commercial rates
Rates are horrible because you pay them on having a business not on profit

http://www.taxfind.ie/binaryDocument//pdfs/http___www_revenue_ie_en_about_foi_s16_local_property_tax_part_02_02_02_pdf.pdf

Graham

Tigger wrote: »

The people who what to do on demand short term leggings will look for planning change of use
It will be granted and then they will have to pay commercial rates

I'm sure there will be quite a few looking for change of use.

I bet you most won't get it.

Stealthfins

KyussBeeshop wrote:

I guess ask for proof that your host has planning permission for AirBnB - and if not, report them to the council for putting up an illegal rental.

Seriously ha ha ha
Who'd rat someone who's providing a simple service ?

If I needed a place to stay on a budget, do you think I'd spoil it ?

Not a hope

liam7831

I think it's great news, if your too tight to get a hotel your best stay at home. Some people heads are wrecked from this crap every weekend from bums having parties cos their too cheap to go to the pub

Grawns

Tigger wrote: »

They're not gonna shut it down
The people who what to do on demand short term leggings will look for planning change of use
It will be granted and then they will have to pay commercial rates
Rates are horrible because you pay them on having a business not on profit

http://www.taxfind.ie/binaryDocument//pdfs/http___www_revenue_ie_en_about_foi_s16_local_property_tax_part_02_02_02_pdf.pdf

There are no rates applicable to bed and breakfasts only on establishments with more than 6 rooms.

seamus

I guess the sticking point here is how one defines a B&B. The regulations call it a "guest house", but don't provide a concrete definition of what that means.

The word "guest" implies that there is a permanent resident who controls the lettings. But ultimately someone could carry on AirBnB activities in such a property until a complaint was filed. The planning office would then confirm that you indeed aren't an exempted development and order you to stop the lettings. So the landlord goes back to renting it out as normal and suffers no penalty.

All ABP would really have to do is set up a tiger team to monitor and review AirBnB lettings, and issuing warnings to people using them as short-term lets rather than guest houses.

_Jamie_

K.Flyer wrote: »

How?
Its no different to landlords letting their properties, but only for shorter terms or home owners letting a room out.
Obviously its a business model that works giving people a broader choice to pick from. Government just needs to work out how to make it all legal and bring the finances into the tax net rather than knee jerk "shut it down" reactions.

It affects other people living in residential buildings.

April 73

Graham wrote: »

There's a few more tidbits from the examiner:

Scrambling springs to mind.

If my experience of enforcement by a local authority is anything to go by I can see nothing happening. Ever.

Lumen

Tigger wrote: »

Rates are horrible because you pay them on having a business not on profit

Rates encourage economically productive uses of a scarce resource.

There are many ways to avoid making a profit and still come out ahead. That's why we have a diverse tax system (VAT, income tax, corp tax, CGT, CAT etc), to attempt to avoid distortions from people gaming the system.

_Jamie_

Rayden Dazzling Quail wrote: »

Nobody cares.

Speak for yourself. This is important.

murphaph

_Jamie_ wrote: »

It affects other people living in residential buildings.

In an apartment scenario I would agree to some extent. For a standalone house I would not.

murphaph

seamus wrote: »

All ABP would really have to do is set up a tiger team to monitor and review AirBnB lettings, and issuing warnings to people using them as short-term lets rather than guest houses.

It's not in their remit. The local planning authorities are responsible for instigating enforcement proceedings. ABP ajudicate when an appeal is made by either party. Every local authority would need to dedicate resources to this, resources they don't have. It's all optics. If nobody complains no action will be taken.

Donal55

murphaph wrote: »

It's not in their remit. The local planning authorities are responsible for instigating enforcement proceedings. ABP ajudicate when an appeal is made by either party. Every local authority would need to dedicate resources to this, resources they don't have. It's all optics. If nobody complains no action will be taken.

Planning applications aren't coming in as quick and numerous as before. Wouldn't be too difficult to scour through 5 or 10 websites each day for info. Furthermore, from my experience in working in enforcement, once you start knocking on doors initially, those you are questioning aren't as shy about saying, 'what about him or her down the road also, they're doing it as well'.
Followed on by cross compliance with revenue and other state bodies and a few court cases with publicity, yeah, it would make a change for some enforcement officers.

Grolschevik

Grolschevik wrote: »

I do.

Ok the vast majority of people don't care. The op is asking are people going to get planing, the answer is no because they don't give two damns about it. That is the reality.

If they want to stop people turning to Airbnb the give LLs some rights rather than the total tenant centric way things are now.

average_runner

KyussBeeshop wrote: »

Housing minister has confirmed that landlords are not allowed to use AirBnB without planning permission:

Landlords are not allowed to use Airbnb for the short-term letting of their properties unless they get planning permission for bed and breakfast or hotel status, Minister for Housing Simon Coveney has confirmed.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/landlords-need-permission-for-airbnb-lets-minister-confirms-1.2914873

So this means all landlords currently using AirBnB without planning permission, will need to stop using AirBnB, and either seek planning permission or make other use of their property - otherwise they will be illegally renting out their property.

Seems to warrant its own thread, but if mods disagree please feel free to move or merge elsewhere.

That won't hold in court. You don't need planning permission for normal short term lettings

April 73

Donal55 wrote: »

Planning applications aren't coming in as quick and numerous as before. Wouldn't be too difficult to scour through 5 or 10 websites each day for info. Furthermore, from my experience in working in enforcement, once you start knocking on doors initially, those you are questioning aren't as shy about saying, 'what about him or her down the road also, they're doing it as well'.
Followed on by cross compliance with revenue and other state bodies and a few court cases with publicity, yeah, it would make a change for some enforcement officers.

You'd need to make someone accountable in the LA for this. Which needs pressure to come on from on high & resources. Planning officers are still busy. I just don't see it happening.

As someone else said - it's all optics. To be seen to proactive & doing something.

Monkeyjoe

I think you will end up having potential buyers checking whether the short term lets have planning permission to force this stock onto the market.

Doesn't cost anything to ask and they won't lose sleep over the LL's situation.

Interesting few months ahead I think. Typical of governments turning citizens against each other.

Rayden Dazzling Quail wrote: »

Ok the vast majority of people don't care. The op is asking are people going to get planing, the answer is no because they don't give two damns about it. That is the reality.

If they want to stop people turning to Airbnb the give LLs some rights rather than the total tenant centric way things are now.

Donal55

April 73 wrote: »

You'd need to make someone accountable in the LA for this. Which needs pressure to come on from on high & resources. Planning officers are still busy. I just don't see it happening.

As someone else said - it's all optics. To be seen to proactive & doing something.

I havent read any of the details, not even the links on this thread, however if it does come to fruition as is identifoed on here the resources will be made available. Chief executives in the Dublin LAs and in other cities were there are housing problems and Air BnB will put in people. Elected members also will want to see action. LAs are getting engineering and technical staff back who were seconded to IW. These people will have to go somewhere, be it Roads, Housing or Environment or Planning Depts.
It all depends how the Dept. Of Environment and Coveney wants this dealt with.

goat2

KyussBeeshop wrote: »

Housing minister has confirmed that landlords are not allowed to use AirBnB without planning permission:

Landlords are not allowed to use Airbnb for the short-term letting of their properties unless they get planning permission for bed and breakfast or hotel status, Minister for Housing Simon Coveney has confirmed.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/landlords-need-permission-for-airbnb-lets-minister-confirms-1.2914873

So this means all landlords currently using AirBnB without planning permission, will need to stop using AirBnB, and either seek planning permission or make other use of their property - otherwise they will be illegally renting out their property.

Seems to warrant its own thread, but if mods disagree please feel free to move or merge elsewhere.

is this not another way of collecting revenue, it is going to cost those applying for this status

seamus

goat2 wrote: »

is this not another way of collecting revenue, it is going to cost those applying for this status

Planning applications most certainly do not generate much revenue. If anything they're a massive cost to the exchequer.

goat2

seamus wrote: »

Planning applications most certainly do not generate much revenue. If anything they're a massive cost to the exchequer.

Did not know that, apoligies