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Hundreds of drivers convicted for illegal use of green diesel

  • 21-12-2016 02:27PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,334 ✭✭✭


    http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/agri-business/hundreds-of-drivers-convicted-for-illegal-use-of-green-diesel-35309043.html

    "...The standard fine for the offence is a €2,500 fine, but one Mayo farmer was fined €9,000. In total there were 118 court ordered fines imposed for the misuse of marked gas oil.

    The standard fine for using green diesel is €2,500. The standard fine for holding a phone while driving is €60. Speeding is €80 and so on.

    This really shows how much the Government prioritises loss of revenue over loss of limb or worse, through the huge fine it imposes for defrauding the State of duty on fuel. Speeding & phone use or careless/dangerous driving while driving is obviously much less important.


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,539 ✭✭✭jca


    Tell us something we don't know..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Donal55


    The govt would be better off removing the dye and just letting farmers etc claim the duty back. Save all the hassle of checkpoints and court cases.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,316 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    Donal55 wrote: »
    The govt would be better off removing the dye and just letting farmers etc claim the duty back. Save all the hassle of checkpoints and court cases.

    What's to stop them claiming back the duty on fuel used in their car? What's to stop them selling the fuel to neighbours?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,488 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    GDY151


    Would love to know what the farmer fined €9k was at? Was he a seriel offender or running a massive fleet of vehicles on the stuff?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,136 ✭✭✭Buffman


    tippman1 wrote: »

    Some clickbait headline from the Indo, 'Hundreds of drivers' with the actual stats of:
    • 2016 (to September) - 118
    • 2015 (full year) -310
    • 2014 (full year) - 288
    Sure they should have gone back a few more years to get to 1001, then it could have been 'Thousands of drivers'!:rolleyes:

    tippman1 wrote: »
    This really shows how much the Government prioritises loss of revenue over loss of limb or worse, through the huge fine it imposes for defrauding the State of duty on fuel. Speeding & phone use or careless/dangerous driving while driving is obviously much less important.

    Ye, sure 'Garlic man' showed us that, 6 years for smuggling Garlic, and only yesterday there's a 6 year sentence for kicking a guy to death on the Dublin quays over 70 cent. ('Garlic man' successfully appealed and got it reduced to 2 years)

    The below is a general 'signature' and not part of any post:

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    tippman1 wrote: »
    This really shows how much the Government prioritises loss of revenue over loss of limb or worse, through the huge fine it imposes for defrauding the State of duty on fuel.

    Detecting the use of green diesel is much harder than detecting someone speeding. Which means the chances of getting caught are low. Which means the fines have to be big.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,851 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    RayCun wrote: »
    Detecting the use of green diesel is much harder than detecting someone speeding. Which means the chances of getting caught are low. Which means the fines have to be big.

    +1 because by the time a person is caught, he's probably already dodged 1,000s of euros worth of excise duty so a big fine is definitely warranted.

    The economics are pretty simple - if you thought you were only going to be fined €100 and the chances of being caught were as high as 10% (and they're obviously much smaller than that), it would be worth your while filling up with the green stuff. Massive fines are the only solution.

    This is a revenue issue, comparing the fines to those for traffic offences is frankly ridiculous.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,917 ✭✭✭GM228


    Buffman wrote: »
    Some clickbait headline from the Indo, 'Hundreds of drivers' with the actual stats of:
    • 2016 (to September) - 118
    • 2015 (full year) -310
    • 2014 (full year) - 288
    Sure they should have gone back a few more years to get to 1001, then it could have been 'Thousands of drivers'!:rolleyes:

    The actual figures are much higher, these are court convictions, but detection rates are well over the 1000 mark each year, usually legal proceedings don't go ahead when a payment is made to revenue in lieu of legal proceedings. There is a 17-25% conviction rate based on the detection vs prosecution figures for 2013 and 2014.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,334 ✭✭✭Comhrá


    coylemj wrote: »
    +1 because by the time a person is caught, he's probably already dodged 1,000s of euros worth of excise duty so a big fine is definitely warranted.

    The economics are pretty simple - if you thought you were only going to be fined €100 and the chances of being caught were as high as 10% (and they're obviously much smaller than that), it would be worth your while filling up with the green stuff. Massive fines are the only solution.

    This is a revenue issue, comparing the fines to those for traffic offences is frankly ridiculous.

    Why is it ridiculous? Are revenue offences more serious than road safety violations? I'd have thought drunk driving was a far more serious crime with potentially far worse potential ramifications like someone being killed, than defrauding the state of a few Euro.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,851 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    tippman1 wrote: »
    Why is it ridiculous? Are revenue offences more serious than road safety violations? I'd have thought drunk driving was a far more serious crime with potentially far worse potential ramifications like someone being killed, than defrauding the state of a few Euro.

    Because they are different categories of offence, one is revenue and the other criminal and you cannot measure them by the same benchmark. If you did, people found with green diesel in the tank would be fined one cent and people driving a car while holding a mobile or under the influence of drink would be flogged to death.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,882 ✭✭✭pa990


    Donal55 wrote: »
    The govt would be better off removing the dye and just letting farmers etc claim the duty back. Save all the hassle of checkpoints and court cases.

    That won't work.

    Dyed diesel is not just an Irish thing. It is used the world over.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_dyes

    In Canada, they even have dyed petrol for off road use. ( I almost filled up on it by accident)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,136 ✭✭✭Buffman


    GM228 wrote: »
    The actual figures are much higher, these are court convictions, but detection rates are well over the 1000 mark each year, usually legal proceedings don't go ahead when a payment is made to revenue in lieu of legal proceedings. There is a 17-25% conviction rate based on the detection vs prosecution figures for 2013 and 2014.

    Ye, and there's probably a lot more who never get/got detected. And the fact that for a long time green diesel was a lot safer than risking your engine with potentially laundered 'road' diesel didn't exactly help deter people from chancing it.

    The below is a general 'signature' and not part of any post:

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,807 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    Drunk drivers holding mobile phones whilst speeding in cars running on green diesel should be jailed for life....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,400 ✭✭✭Nonoperational


    Buffman wrote: »
    Some clickbait headline from the Indo, 'Hundreds of drivers' with the actual stats of:
    • 2016 (to September) - 118
    • 2015 (full year) -310
    • 2014 (full year) - 288
    Sure they should have gone back a few more years to get to 1001, then it could have been 'Thousands of drivers'!:rolleyes:




    Ye, sure 'Garlic man' showed us that, 6 years for smuggling Garlic, and only yesterday there's a 6 year sentence for kicking a guy to death on the Dublin quays over 70 cent. ('Garlic man' successfully appealed and got it reduced to 2 years)

    Garlic man defrauded the state of €1.6million, and that's only what he was caught for. He could have been importing sex toys for all it matters. It was serious tax evasion. You'd swear he was bringing in a few cloves for himself the way people went on about it completely missing the point.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 29,393 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Garlic man defrauded the state of €1.6million, and that's only what he was caught for. He could have been importing sex toys for all it matters. It was serious tax evasion. You'd swear he was bringing in a few cloves for himself the way people went on about it completely missing the point.

    No, the point is how selective the application of law is and where the penalties are weighted.

    Look at how much money is pissed away in this country every year by Government departments. Look at the farce that is the IW fiasco (agree with charges or not, no-one can deny that it's been a very expensive debacle), e-voting machines, agreements with toll operators to make up the difference on shortfalls to projected revenues etc.. not to mention the cronyism and corruption that goes on with the awarding of jobs and contracts. You could also of course recall how almost no-one involved in the mess that was the financial crisis has faced any real penalty

    But far easier to prosecute the "little people" over what amount to pennies in the end.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59,758 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Why not get rid of this unfair subsidy altogether? Why should a farmer pay less for fuel when he pollutes more?

    Added benefit is that without the benefits from this illegal fuel business, the IRA will get a lot poorer quickly!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    No, the point is how selective the application of law is and where the penalties are weighted.
    ....
    But far easier to prosecute the "little people" over what amount to pennies in the end.

    The point is ... <lots of unrelated things>

    What amounts to pennies? The amount you can save by using green diesel illegally, or the amount Garlic Man avoided in tax?


  • Posts: 24,774 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    unkel wrote: »
    Why not get rid of this unfair subsidy altogether? Why should a farmer pay less for fuel when he pollutes more?

    Added benefit is that without the benefits from this illegal fuel business, the IRA will get a lot poorer quickly!

    Firstly it benefits much more people than just farmers.

    Secondly it would mean much more expansive food prices and would make farming much less viable. It's very much fair that a farmer can avail of reduced prices diesel as it's a necessity for his work.

    It would also drastically increase the costs of carrying out construction work as green diesel is used in all aspects of construction work, road building etc etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,670 ✭✭✭Peppa Pig


    Firstly it benefits much more people than just farmers.

    Secondly it would mean much more expansive food prices and would make farming much less viable. It's very much fair that a farmer can avail of reduced prices diesel as it's a necessity for his work.

    It would also drastically increase the costs of carrying out construction work as green diesel is used in all aspects of construction work, road building etc etc.
    What percentage increase would we see in the price of cabbage, or in the building of a 20km motorway?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59,758 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Very little. But yes, thing will get more expensive. But we can reduce taxes (and compensate farmers & others) by using the extra income from fuel excise + VAT now that all polluters (who use fuel) are paying for it.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,946 ✭✭✭9935452


    Would love to know what the farmer fined €9k was at? Was he a seriel offender or running a massive fleet of vehicles on the stuff?

    Id say he probably had a cattle lorry on the road and was running a jeep and car on it too.

    RayCun wrote: »
    Detecting the use of green diesel is much harder than detecting someone speeding. Which means the chances of getting caught are low. Which means the fines have to be big.

    I was told a story about 3 farmers who made a deal between them .
    The deal was they would all run green diesel.
    If/When one of them was dipped they would split the fine between them and all would stop using green diesel.
    I was told they got to 5 years when they were caught so a lot of money was saved.

    Another odd one,
    I pulled into a backroad/old main road petrol station to get a fill of diesel.
    When i was filling with diesel another car came along and manouvered around me to get to the green diesel pump and filled up in front of me.
    IMO there was taking a big risk doing this in front of a stranger , they hadnt a clue who i was or what i might have done.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,079 ✭✭✭creedp


    unkel wrote: »
    Very little. But yes, thing will get more expensive. But we can reduce taxes (and compensate farmers & others) by using the extra income from fuel excise + VAT now that all polluters (who use fuel) are paying for it.

    Often wondered about this. Just like fuel taxes are justified to incentivise people to buy more fuel efficient cars I wonder would unsubsidised diesel incentivise farmers etc to buy appropriately sized vehicles .. these days the tractors are so big (and expensive although the taxpayer is sharing that cost also) its difficult to see who the hell is driving it. It seems like some sectors are always looking for the auld subsidy ..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,079 ✭✭✭creedp


    9935452 wrote: »
    Id say he probably had a cattle lorry on the road and was running a jeep and car on it too.




    I was told a story about 3 farmers who made a deal between them .
    The deal was they would all run green diesel.
    If/When one of them was dipped they would split the fine between them and all would stop using green diesel.
    I was told they got to 5 years when they were caught so a lot of money was saved.

    Another odd one,
    I pulled into a backroad/old main road petrol station to get a fill of diesel.
    When i was filling with diesel another car came along and manouvered around me to get to the green diesel pump and filled up in front of me.
    IMO there was taking a big risk doing this in front of a stranger , they hadnt a clue who i was or what i might have done.

    Was getting fuel at local station recently and a year old A4 driven by what turned out to be a very well dressed blonde young woman shot past me to the green diesel pump. I mentioned to the owner whose response was how could you expect a young one to pay full price for fuel when she has such a long commute to Dublin .. more the fool I am!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,136 ✭✭✭Buffman


    creedp wrote: »
    Was getting fuel at local station recently and a year old A4 driven by what turned out to be a very well dressed blonde young woman shot past me to the green diesel pump. I mentioned to the owner whose response was how could you expect a young one to pay full price for fuel when she has such a long commute to Dublin .. more the fool I am!!

    Ye, I can see his point. Driving a year old Audi doesn't necessarily mean someone is loaded in these PCP days. If someone is financially struggling and has to do big mileage commuting across half the country because they can't afford to live close to Dublin, I can understand why people take the risk.

    I'm not condoning it, but I do think the €2.5k fine for a first offence is excessive.

    Garlic man defrauded the state of €1.6million, and that's only what he was caught for. He could have been importing sex toys for all it matters. It was serious tax evasion. You'd swear he was bringing in a few cloves for himself the way people went on about it completely missing the point.

    Ye, without wanting to drag the thread too far off topic, I was using him as a comparison of the Goverments priorities in reply to the OP.

    I'm not saying he should have got away with it, but 6 years was ridiculous considering other violent crimes which would get a similar sentence. Bear in mind he also had to repay the money to Revenue so the actual loss was minimal.

    The below is a general 'signature' and not part of any post:

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    You don't have to take a 'smart' meter if you don't want one, opt-out is available.

    Buy drinks in 3L or bigger plastic bottles or glass bottles or cartons to avoid the DRS fee.

    Public transport user? If you're sick of phantom ghost services on the 'official' RTI sources, check bustimes.org for actual 'real' RTI, if it's on their map it actually exists.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,946 ✭✭✭9935452


    Buffman wrote: »
    Ye, I can see his point. Driving a year old Audi doesn't necessarily mean someone is loaded in these PCP days. If someone is financially struggling and has to do big mileage commuting across half the country because they can't afford to live close to Dublin, I can understand why people take the risk.

    I'm not condoning it, but I do think the €2.5k fine for a first offence is excessive.


    .

    I dont think it is really. They need a big fine to scare people off doing it.
    IMO you have to be very unlucky to get caught for doing it.
    For example My parents have had diesel cars since 1993 and have never ben dipped to their knowledge
    Small fines and more people would chance it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,136 ✭✭✭Buffman


    9935452 wrote: »
    I dont think it is really. They need a big fine to scare people off doing it.
    IMO you have to be very unlucky to get caught for doing it.

    In a country where some would say you'd have to be very unlucky to get caught for most offences, basing the punishment for an offence on the ability or lack thereof of the Goverment to enforce those laws is a slippery slope IMO. Lets take a random low prosecution rate example like burglary, does it warrant a death sentence to scare people off? Of course not.

    IMO sentences should fit the offence, arguably most handed down by judges in Ireland don't. This €2.5k one is one of the few which is a bit harsh for a first time offence, considering the low bar set by other offences. If there're multiple offences, then throw the book at them. If the similar revenue related offence of driving with no motor tax was an automatic €2.5k fine then I think most people would consider that a bit harsh also.
    9935452 wrote: »
    For example My parents have had diesel cars since 1993 and have never ben dipped to their knowledge
    Small fines and more people would chance it.

    Ye, if you chance it, it's like a reverse lottery, the more you 'play' the more money you save, but if you 'win' you're screwed.

    The below is a general 'signature' and not part of any post:

    FYI, if you move to a 'smart' meter electricity plan, you CAN'T move back to a non-smart plan.

    You don't have to take a 'smart' meter if you don't want one, opt-out is available.

    Buy drinks in 3L or bigger plastic bottles or glass bottles or cartons to avoid the DRS fee.

    Public transport user? If you're sick of phantom ghost services on the 'official' RTI sources, check bustimes.org for actual 'real' RTI, if it's on their map it actually exists.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,946 ✭✭✭9935452


    Buffman wrote: »
    If there're multiple offences, then throw the book at them. .

    I think you are talking about getting caught multiple times rather than multiple offenses.
    The 2nd time someone fills up with green diesel it becomes a multiple offense.
    People dont do it once , They do it multiple times ,
    Buffman wrote: »



    Ye, if you chance it, it's like a reverse lottery, the more you 'play' the more money you save, but if you 'win' you're screwed.

    But if the fine was smaller , you start saving sooner.
    For example if the fine was 500 i would save that in 4 or 5 months.
    if it is 2500 it would take me the bones of 2 years to save that amount.
    I reckon you are going to get caught sooner or later .
    2 years is a long time to be chancing it


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,136 ✭✭✭Buffman


    9935452 wrote: »
    I think you are talking about getting caught multiple times rather than multiple offenses.
    The 2nd time someone fills up with green diesel it becomes a multiple offense.
    People dont do it once , They do it multiple times

    Ye, I mean getting caught and successfully prosecuted, as until you do it's not a proven offence. Yes, it's highly likely you wouldn't be caught the first time, but it's possible.

    The below is a general 'signature' and not part of any post:

    FYI, if you move to a 'smart' meter electricity plan, you CAN'T move back to a non-smart plan.

    You don't have to take a 'smart' meter if you don't want one, opt-out is available.

    Buy drinks in 3L or bigger plastic bottles or glass bottles or cartons to avoid the DRS fee.

    Public transport user? If you're sick of phantom ghost services on the 'official' RTI sources, check bustimes.org for actual 'real' RTI, if it's on their map it actually exists.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,911 ✭✭✭✭ShadowHearth


    My buddy drove a small van with green diesel. He is workingv 7 days per week 12h++ almost each day, finish proper work and then do extra work after. Tried to get as much work as possible as he got shafted when bough a house and his repayments like 2.5K a month.

    Got caught, 3K fine or 1 day in jail. He took the second option and went to work again.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,148 ✭✭✭selectamatic


    My buddy drove a small van with green diesel. He is workingv 7 days per week 12h++ almost each day, finish proper work and then do extra work after. Tried to get as much work as possible as he got shafted when bough a house and his repayments like 2.5K a month.

    Got caught, 3K fine or 1 day in jail. He took the second option and went to work again.

    Think that option is closed now as of last year or early this year sometime. Loads used to do it for no tax and other motoring fines. Now If you're unable/unwilling to pay any fine it'll be either stopped from wages or social welfare payments.


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