Road traffic bill (soon to be act) 2016

Buffman

A few changes coming down the line with this bill the Dail passed yesterday, but the 'media' are only covering some of them.

A number of new measures about drug driving, written-off vehicles and uninsured drivers have been given the green light.

I've had a quick scan through it, main points are:

1: Insurers legally required to notify the minister within 5 days if a vehicle is mechanically written off. The minister can then publish this data as he sees fit and charge a fee for it.

2: Drugs now randomly tested for along with alcohol so Mandatory Alcohol Testing (MAT) checkpoints will now be Mandatory Intoxication Testing (MIT) checkpoints. Lots of other limits etc mentioned but too much to summarise.

3: 20 kilometres per hour is now a legal speed limit. ( For those who thought 30 was too damn fast.:rolleyes: Time to get out and push!)

4: No more discretion allowed for Gardai with fixed charge offenses, " by substituting “the member shall serve” for “the member may serve”". So no more warnings, you'll get done for everything.

5: If you don't pay the fixed penalty, when you get the court summons from a Garda, you'll then have until 7 days before court date to pay double the original fine. If you do, the case will be dropped. (So an end to the 'lost in the post' defence I suppose)

6: Insurers legally required to pass on all the below.

(a) particulars, including the name and address, of the holder of a motor insurance policy,
(b) the period of cover of the policy,
(c) any limitations as to the use of a mechanically propelled vehicle under the policy,
(d) the persons or the classes of persons whose liability is covered under the policy,
(e) the vehicle (including the vehicle registration number) or class of vehicle the use of which is covered under the policy,
(f) the names of any driver or the class of driver whose driving is covered under the policy, and
(g) the licence number, or permit number, of the driving licence, or learner permit, of the holder of a motor insurance policy and of any named driver whose driving is covered under the policy.

7: Cyclists legally required to give details to Gardai.

8: New penalty points, for towing a trailer over 3500kg without a licence it's 2, driving in a cycle lane is 1.

9: Allowing your car to be driven by an unaccompanied learner will be a crime unless they stole the car. At a max €2k fine/6 months jail it's not to be taken lightly.

10: The NTA are now responsible for creating regulations for vehicle clamping.

11: Disqualified driver information to be shared between Ireland and the UK.

There are a few others things but I think I've covered most of it.

Atlantic Dawn

1 - Will be interesting how they will define a written off vehicle, will it be where cost to be put back on the road safely is worth more than vehicle or will it be that the car is a death trap and should never be back on the road. They need official categories of write off like UK, otherwise it's gombeen rubbish. "Mechanically written off" would imply issues with the engine would it not?

7 - Cycliste required to give details to the Gardaí, I thought all citizens were required to give name and date of birth to Gardaí when asked, did using a bike previously give some kind of exemption?

10 - Hopefully regulations around clamping limit convicted criminals from being involved in the clamping business, it should be a minimum of the regulations to be a security guard that they adhere to.

11 - Disqualified driver information shared from UK is about time but surely that counts as a bilateral deal and is against EU rules, surely we should be sharing these details with all EU states?

Buffman

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

1 - Will be interesting how they will define a written off vehicle, will it be where cost to be put back on the road safely is worth more than vehicle or will it be that the car is a death trap and should never be back on the road. They need official categories of write off like UK, otherwise it's gombeen rubbish. "Mechanically written off" would imply issues with the engine would it not?

Ye, the exact wording is below. They should use a UK style class system of write off IMO.

.
Vehicle insurer obligations
4(1)
A vehicle insurer, who as a result of an inspection of a mechanically propelled vehicle
determines that such vehicle is defective to the extent that it is
—
(a)when in motion, a danger to the public, and
(b)beyond repair,shall notify the Minister in accordance with subsection
(2) within 5 working days of such inspection.
(2)When an insurer notifies the Minister under subsection
(1)it shall also notify the Minister whether, based on the inspection of the vehicle, it is suitable for the salvaging of viable automotive parts.

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

7 - Cycliste required to give details to the Gardaí, I thought all citizens were required to give name and date of birth to Gardaí when asked, did using a bike previously give some kind of exemption?

Only if the Garda has reasonable grounds for suspecting that you committed an offence. So now that requirement isn't there for cyclists, but ye, in reality it's more of a technicality. More info here.

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

10 - Hopefully regulations around clamping limit convicted criminals from being involved in the clamping business, it should be a minimum of the regulations to be a security guard that they adhere to.

Agreed.

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

11 - Disqualified driver information shared from UK is about time but surely that counts as a bilateral deal and is against EU rules, surely we should be sharing these details with all EU states?

Yep, should be a full EU database of crime, not just for driving. Seems exactly the sort of thing Europol should have set up.

pa990

Buffman wrote: »

A few changes coming down the line with this bill the Dail passed yesterday, but the 'media' are only covering some of them.

I've had a quick scan through it, main points are:

1: Insurers legally required to notify the minister within 5 days if a vehicle is mechanically written off. The minister can then publish this data as he sees fit and charge a fee for it.

2: Drugs now randomly tested for along with alcohol so Mandatory Alcohol Testing (MAT) checkpoints will now be Mandatory Intoxication Testing (MIT) checkpoints. Lots of other limits etc mentioned but too much to summarise.

3: 20 kilometres per hour is now a legal speed limit. ( For those who thought 30 was too damn fast.:rolleyes: Time to get out and push!)

4: No more discretion allowed for Gardai with fixed charge offenses, " by substituting “the member shall serve” for “the member may serve”". So no more warnings, you'll get done for everything.

5: If you don't pay the fixed penalty, when you get the court summons from a Garda, you'll then have until 7 days before court date to pay double the original fine. If you do, the case will be dropped. (So an end to the 'lost in the post' defence I suppose)

6: Insurers legally required to pass on all the below.7: Cyclists legally required to give details to Gardai.

8: New penalty points, for towing a trailer over 3500kg without a licence it's 2, driving in a cycle lane is 1.

9: Allowing your car to be driven by an unaccompanied learner will be a crime unless they stole the car. At a max €2k fine/6 months jail it's not to be taken lightly.

10: The NTA are now responsible for creating regulations for vehicle clamping.

11: Disqualified driver information to be shared between Ireland and the UK.

There are a few others things but I think I've covered most of it.

And like everything else, it'll end up being unenforceable


Due to loopholes, and lack of funding

BorneTobyWilde

They seem more interested in coming down hard on motorists than criminals.
What a Cuunt-try we live in.

BorneTobyWilde

So the 100 of thousands of cars awaiting NCT that are on road with NCT's out of date by a day or a week or a fortnight will get done, no questions asked, even though the NCT backlog means they can't get a test. Should these people just stop bringing kids to school, stop showing up at work until the get an NCT test date. Will they pay the wages of these drives as they wait for test date?

pa990

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

So the 100 of thousands of cars awaiting NCT that are on road with NCT's out of date by a day or a week or a fortnight will get done, no questions asked, even though the NCT backlog means they can't get a test. Should these people just stop bringing kids to school, stop showing up at work until the get an NCT test date. Will they pay the wages of these drives as they wait for test date?

There's no NCT backlog.

I got a NCT letter in the door at 9am
Went online.
Got a slot for 1.30pm the same day.

Tested and home by 3pm

Buffman

Chances are that the most immediate result of this will be the insurance cartel using the increased administration requirements of this as an excuse to raise prices even more. I don't see anything in that bill which will bring prices down anyway.:(

Atlantic Dawn

They should at a minimum have a check in VRT office that no UK category A or B written off vehicle is ever allowed be registered as a car on Irish plates.

markpb

BorneTobyWilde wrote:

So the 100 of thousands of cars awaiting NCT that are on road with NCT's out of date by a day or a week or a fortnight will get done, no questions asked, even though the NCT backlog means they can't get a test. Should these people just stop bringing kids to school, stop showing up at work until the get an NCT test date. Will they pay the wages of these drives as they wait for test date?

Quit playing the victim. There's a bit of paper attached to your car which tells you when the test is due so that you could book it in plenty of time. If you leave it till the last minute, you've only yourself to blame.

Atlantic Dawn

markpb wrote: »

Quit playing the victim. There's a bit of paper attached to your car which tells you when the test is due so that you could book it in plenty of time. If you leave it till the last minute, you've only yourself to blame.

Exactly and you can do the test 3 months early.

Buffman

Buffman wrote: »

4: No more discretion allowed for Gardai with fixed charge offenses, " by substituting “the member shall serve” for “the member may serve”". So no more warnings, you'll get done for everything.

I had a look in more detail at this. So section 35 (1) of the Road Traffic Act 2010 currently is this:

(1) Where a member of the Garda Síochána has reasonable grounds for believing that a fixed charge offence is being or has been committed by a person—

(a) if the member identifies the person, the member may serve, or cause to be served, personally or by post, on the person a fixed charge notice, or

(b) if the member does not identify the person and the offence involves the use of a mechanically propelled vehicle, the member may serve, or cause to be served, personally or by post, on the registered owner of the vehicle a fixed charge notice.

And the amendment in the 2016 bill:

24
.
Section 35 of the Act of 2010 is amended
—
(a)in subsection (1), by substituting “the member shall serve” for “the member may serve” in both places it occurs,

So with this amendment in the proposed bill it'll actually be illegal for the Garda to only warn you for any fixed charge offence and the fine must be issued.

The cynical side of me was wondering how the Goverment would turn the 'whistleblower' saga into more cash, I guess this is it.

tossy

Making it illegal for a member of the Gardai to use their discretion is the thin end of a very bad wedge for this country. We have a great police force in this country with (in the majority of cases) a very human touch, this is one more step towards the robot style policing we see in other countries.

GM228

Buffman wrote: »

No more discretion allowed for Gardai with fixed charge offenses, " by substituting “the member shall serve” for “the member may serve”". So no more warnings, you'll get done for everything.

Garda discretion won't end despite the use of shall. Due to the uniqueness of the common law power of discretion the use of shall can't compell a Guard to do anything, something confirmed by the Attorney General during the penalty points scandal.

pred racer

tossy wrote: »

Making it illegal for a member of the Gardai to use their discretion is the thin end of a very bad wedge for this country. We have a great police force in this country with (in the majority of cases) a very human touch, this is one more step towards the robot style policing we see in other countries.

You will just be warned for 'maybe' commiting the offence instead

GM228

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Cycliste required to give details to the Gardaí, I thought all citizens were required to give name and date of birth to Gardaí when asked, did using a bike previously give some kind of exemption?

You only have to give your name where legislation requires it, but S108 of the Road Traffic Act 1961 already allows for a demand of name and addreas of a cyclist.

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Disqualified driver information shared from UK is about time but surely that counts as a bilateral deal and is against EU rules, surely we should be sharing these details with all EU states?

The bilateral agreement was originally made in 2010 on foot of the ill fated 1998 EU Convention on Driver Disqualification (98/C 216/01) and was rubber stamped by the EU, it was in force until 2015 when the convention was revoked leaving no legal framework for it's operation in Ireland until now (the UK already had their own legal framework in place).

Ireland and the UK were the only countries ever to use the convention.

cml387

9: Allowing your car to be driven by an unaccompanied learner will be a crime unless they stole the car. At a max €2k fine/6 months jail it's not to be taken lightly.

I can see this causing a a bit of a stir.

Would this have been included because of the tragic accident in Fermoy last year?

georgefalls

7.
AFAIK you don't have to carry any form of ID, if you're a cyclist or indeed a pedestrian.
So, giving a false name and address can't be followed up..?

GM228

georgefalls wrote: »

7.
AFAIK you don't have to carry any form of ID, if you're a cyclist or indeed a pedestrian.
So, giving a false name and address can't be followed up..?

If a false name is given or they suspect a false name they will be able to arrest the cyclist under the Bill.

georgefalls

GM228 wrote: »

If a false name is given or they suspect a false name they will be able to arrest the cyclist under the Bill.

They'll be arresting a lot of them then...

joe_99

Do we know when this is expected to become law?

Buffman

joe_99 wrote: »

Do we know when this is expected to become law?

Hard to say for sure unless you're in the inner circle, AFAIK it just requires the President to sign it and that will probably happen within the next month.
You can keep track of it here, though they are a bit slow at updating it.

Atlantic Dawn

They should have put in place legislation to seize a car where the tyres were deemed dangerous and unsafe but car had a valid NCT.

Isambard

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

They seem more interested in coming down hard on motorists than criminals.
.

no, the intention is to come down hard on motorists who are criminals, in that they are not within the Law.

Law abiding motorists have nothing to worry about. It's not hard, I've been doing it for decades.

Whether it gets enforced by the Traffic Corps is another matter entirely.

Holysock

cml387 wrote: »

I can see this causing a a bit of a stir.

Would this have been included because of the tragic accident in Fermoy last year?

"On Monday, Noel Clancy, whose wife Geraldine and daughter Louise were killed following a collision with a car driven by an unaccompanied learner motorist on December 22, 2015, called on the Government “to implement legislation so that allowing one’s car to be driven by an unaccompanied learner driver is an offence”.

Speaking outside Cork District Court where Susan Gleeson received a three-year suspended sentence for dangerous driving, Mr Clancy called for legislation that “would make the car owner and driver equally accountable in law”."

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/department-considers-change-to-law-on-unaccompanied-learner-drivers-431860.html

Perhaps its also to dissuade parents insuring their learner children as named drivers on cars driven only by the learner but still registered to the parent?

Buffman

cml387 wrote: »

Quote:
9: Allowing your car to be driven by an unaccompanied learner will be a crime unless they stole the car. At a max €2k fine/6 months jail it's not to be taken lightly.

I can see this causing a a bit of a stir.

Would this have been included because of the tragic accident in Fermoy last year?

Ye, without wanting to comment on individual tragic cases, I'd imagine that had a lot to do with it.

Ross has already said the 20km/h limit is due to Jake Brennans death.

“This was set up following the tragic death of six-year-old Jake Brennan who was killed in a road traffic incident in the housing estate where he lived. A new special speed limit of 20km/hour is now being made available for local authorities to impose where they see fit,” Ross said.

RandomAccess

Its a bit of a joke bringing in new laws without enforcing the ones already there.

The amount of mobile phone use at the wheel is just getting ridiculous..

GM228

RandomAccess wrote: »

Its a bit of a joke bringing in new laws without enforcing the ones already there.

The amount of mobile phone use at the wheel is just getting ridiculous..

In fairness the Gardaí will do you if they catch you on the phone, but that is an issue-not enough detection.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1221/840427-drink-driving-christmas/

schemingbohemia

Buffman wrote: »

Hard to say for sure unless you're in the inner circle, AFAIK it just requires the President to sign it and that will probably happen within the next month.
You can keep track of it here, though they are a bit slow at updating it.

Has to be signed by President within a week. But will depend if there are commencement orders required or if the whole Bill automatically commences with President's signature.

seamus

Holysock wrote: »

Perhaps its also to dissuade parents insuring their learner children as named drivers on cars driven only by the learner but still registered to the parent?

No, it's to discourage parents allowing their children to drive unaccompanied. Most people do in fact still learn to drive as named drivers on a parents' policy.

This new offence would put a stop to the practice of using the kids as taxis and getting them to run errands in your car.

The demanding details of cyclists bit confused me, because that was basically always the case.

What's been changed is that where they refuse to give details or give false details, they can be arrested and charged. Previously the Garda could only seize the bike.

Personally I think the latter is probably more effective as an on-the-spot fine, though I accept the headache that causes for a Garda having to seize and store (and dispose of) a bike.

bigroad

Can you still drive the wrong way up a motorway at the legal speed limit and only get one point on your licence and can you pass your car driving test at 17 and not get an eyesight test till your 70 ,thats 53 years later .