Fair division of wealth from Will?

galwayguy85

Hi Guys...

I'm hoping you can give me some advise on this potentially difficult family matter.
My uncle passed away in Feburary of this year.

My brother and I as well as his own immediate siblings and nephews/nieces have all had his wealth divided up in what I regard to be a fair ratio.
He did leave behind equal areas of land to my brother and I, also.  We are the only ones to receive a share of his property.

The pair of us both live abroad but did come home last Christmas as well as the funeral a few weeks later. It may be worth noting that my bother is living/working in Australia. I'm studying/training in a European country.

My brother was the first to arrive home last Christmas and received a particular sum of money (from the uncle) to help with the inevitable litigation and taxation costs that goes with inheriting land.  My uncle also stated that he was going to give me an equal sum of money to help offset these costs. His health went into decline not long after and he had to go to the hospice. He never got around to writing the cheque.

We were both incrediby fond of the man and would far rather he was alive and well today. 18 months ago, all of this would have been unfathomable.
Both of us will be back home again this Christmas to keep the folks company. It's inevitbale that a discussion on inheritance is going to come up at some stage.... I don't want hostility over propety and money but I do want things to be fair... I'm certain had the roles been swithed and I got this extra financial help my younger brother would be expecting me to split or at least give him a share of it.

During my last trip home during the summer, I spoke to my mother about the matter. She is of the opinion that as my brother gave up work for 2 weeks in Australia and had to pay for flights, there is no obligation on him to share a penny of it with me.  I would tend to disagree of course. I didn't want to broach the subject with Dad. I know it would upset him too much.

I know my uncle would not want any discord over how his wealth is to be eventually shared out.

Can anybody here set me straight? Do I have any moral or legal entitlement to some of that money? I just want things to be as fair as possbile.

PauloMN

You've inherited land, right? How much do you think the legal fees will cost you? Legal fees are usually deducted from cash assets before the rest is divided as per the will. Not sure on the tax front, but having inherited a share of my parents house, but assuming it's the same for land value as it is for property, it would want to be a serious amount of land you inherited for it to have any CAT implications.

I personally wouldn't ask for money from your brother. It's up to him as to if he wants to give you a share of it. He got a cheque, you didn't, that's just the way it is. If you have already stated your position, leave it at that and get on with sorting out the inheritance you did get.

Legally I'd say you are entitled to nothing other than what was left to you in your uncle's will. Morally, I think it's impossible for anyone on a forum to answer, but I personally would leave it now. Was your brother there when your uncle said he'd give you the same amount of cash? If so, just state your position to him and let him make the call as to what he wants to do - but he is not compelled to do anything.

galwayguy85

Hi PauloMN

No, my bother was not present at the same time my uncle stated he would give the cash/cheque. We arrived home on seperate days.

(edit) But he is fully aware that my uncle had intened to give both of us this money, as are our parents.

nuac

Mod
Cannot give legal advice on this forum

A formal family meeting may help to clear the air, as many family difficulties arise from lack of communication, or misunderstandings of positions.
If there is such a meeting I suggest, from long years at coalface, that
(1) it be confined to the actual direct relatives, leaving out spouses or the young lad who is into his second year of law lectures
(2) that, if available, it be chaired by the family solicitor

In the case of bereavements, such meetings should not be held immediately after burial. It may become emotional. Better to wait for the month's mind

Will leave thread open for discussion, bearing forum rules in mind

The_Pretender

I'm assuming neither of you are professional farmers, in which case you'll be looking at 33% of everything over the value of €32,500 going to the taxman.

It's not nice that your bother got money and you didn't, but at the end of the day it was bad luck really that you got left short.

If it was me I'd just see how it plays out for now. It'd depend on the value and your own circumstances, and how much money your uncle gave to your brother. If it was <20K I probably wouldn't cause the grief for your parents. In saying that, if I was your brother I'd split the money, it'd feel like the right thing to do.

galwayguy85

Thanks for sharing your expertise.

No, neither of us are farmers.

When I go home for the Christmas I'll be more informed of the specifics such as the exact area(s) of land etc.

I'm not motivated by money and wealth to any great degree. How my granny's Will was split up between my mother and her 8 or 9 siblings caused enough friction.

Luckily my father's family is much smaller and all his remaining siblings are all on good terms.

My brother and I have not discussed this matter yet between ourselves.

I just want us all to do right by each other.

RayCun

galwayguy85 wrote: »

I'm not motivated by money and wealth to any great degree. How my granny's Will was split up between my mother and her 8 or 9 siblings caused enough friction.

What do you think will be the likely result of you telling your brother that he has a moral obligation to give you money?

If you want to get everything you think is coming to you, and don't mind causing a big family row, then go for it.

Otherwise, build a bridge and get over it.

galwayguy85

Not very likely. The pair of us are not close. Bitter rivals if nothing else.

Otherwise, i may very well have to "build a bridge and get over it", as you put it.

RayCun

galwayguy85 wrote: »

Not very likely. The pair of us are not close. Bitter rivals if nothing else.

Otherwise, i may very well have to "build a bridge and get over it", as you put it.

ah, so it's not the money so much as the idea that your brother got something and you didn't.

I'm sure your parents will be delighted that you both come home for christmas and the opportunity to argue about this face to face.

Legally, you haven't a leg to stand on.

Morally - well, you have plenty of material to hold a grudge for the next twenty years, and it sounds like you'll be happier with that anyway.

brian_t

RayCun wrote: »

What do you think will be the likely result of you telling your brother that he has a moral obligation to give you money?
.

The brother has no moral obligation to share the money he got pre the uncles death.

It should come out of the share all the other "siblings and nephews/nieces " got. If the uncle had written the second cheque before he died it would have reduced the amount they would have all got any way.

galwayguy85

Thanks Raycun.

This is not about a making or holding a grudge, it more to do with maintaining what my late uncle would've wanted i.e for both his nephews to benefit equally from his heritage.

It's a pity cancer cells don't play by the rules of right and wrong (be it morally or legally).

If you're going troll me, please go elsewhere.

Mr. Incognito

So your brother came home and was rewarded.

You didn't and want to be rewarded, retrospectively.

You snooze you lose.

You are not "entitled" to anything other than whats in the will.

judeboy101

broach the subject with your brother, if he is having none of it then he is not the type of brother you want in your life anyway. unfortunately you cant pick your family, but you don't have to talk to them ever again either.

galwayguy85

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

So your brother came home and was rewarded.

You didn't and want to be rewarded, retrospectively.

You snooze you lose.

You are not "entitled" to anything other than whats in the will.

What does that mean???

His flight home was pre-cooked for one particular day and mine was pre-booked for another a few days later. It's not that case that I chose to stay abroad out of spite. Furthermore, this subject was not even touched upon before either of our returns home.

RayCun

galwayguy85 wrote: »

I know my uncle would not want any discord over how his wealth is to be eventually shared out.

You say your main concern is what your uncle would have wanted. You don't think your brother is honouring his wishes, but it looks like you're not going to either.

galwayguy85

Yes, it's a regrettable situation. An even division (as was originally intended) is all I am seeking.

foxatron

Do you know how much he gave your brother? Unless it's a serious amount of money why would you bother. Be the bigger man and leave it be. Not worth the hassle Imo. And any argument isn't not going to be nice for your parents either.

RayCun

galwayguy85 wrote: »

Yes, it's a regrettable situation. An even division (as was originally intended) is all I am seeking.

Your uncle had two intentions
avoid family discord
even division

One of them is going to be sacrificed. You have decided that (regrettably!) "avoid family discord" has to be the one to go. Because fairness!

galwayguy85

Abstracted from the situation, it's easy to just dismiss it as "oh well, just one of things..."

I have no doubt, you'd be similarly put out in a similar situation when outrageous fortune denies you something but gives onto another close to you (which could easily be shared or distributed in some rational sense).

RayCun

galwayguy85 wrote: »

Abreacted from the situation, it's easy to just dismiss it as "oh well, just one of things..."

I have no doubt, you'd be similarly put out in a similar situation when outrageous fortune denies you something but gives onto another close to you (which could easily be shared or distributed in some rational sense).

I get on well with my siblings. That's worth a lot more to me than a few thousand euro.

galwayguy85

Maybe this is just a situation in which there is no right or wrong for the recipients of land/money despite the good-will or otherwise of disposer.

brian_t

galwayguy85 wrote: »

Abstracted from the situation, it's easy to just dismiss it as "oh well, just one of things..."

I have no doubt, you'd be similarly put out in a similar situation when outrageous fortune denies you something but gives onto another close to you (which could easily be shared or distributed in some rational sense).

What about the other nephews/nieces who didn't get any share of the land.

galwayguy85

To my knowledge it was just my brother and I.

Please don't ask me why this is, I really only have one or two ideas as to why this is the case. Favouritism was not a factor. Perhaps splitting a plot of land 6 or 7 ways is worse than splitting it two ways.

ohnonotgmail

galwayguy85 wrote: »

Maybe this is just a situation in which there is no right or wrong for the recipients of land/money despite the good-will or otherwise of disposer.

You were just unlucky that he died before giving you the money. You have no legal right to it from his estate. nor do you have a right to it from your brother. your uncles gift to him is not yours to share.

GingerLily

brian_t wrote: »

What about the other nephews/nieces who didn't get any share of the land.

If you dispute the will I would think you'll make a lot of enemies considering how you've benefitted from the will compared to your cousins.

galwayguy85

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

You were just unlucky that he died before giving you the money. You have no legal right to it from his estate. nor do you have a right to it from your brother. your uncles gift to him is not yours to share.

I shall accept that. Thanks for showing some compassion and respect for the situation.

Mrs OBumble

You have no right to anything.

Sell the land, use the cash to pay the legal fees and give the rest to your local homeless charity.

Vegeta

So the money given to your brother was to pay for legal fees and tax. If he were to split it with you, I'm assuming he would not cover all of his the legal fees and subsequent tax bill. Is that correct?

No question, you were unfortunate, but if the above is true why would you want to spread that misfortune to your brother too?

To ease your burden at your brother's expense is clearly morally wrong. I suspect you know this though.

TheAnalyst_

I'd put aside e500 to spend on high quality large mirror. And then take a good long hard look at yourself,


Mod
Let us try to be helpful if posting at all

galwayguy85

Vegeta wrote: »

So the money given to your brother was to pay for legal fees and tax. If he were to split it with you, I'm assuming he would not cover all of his the legal fees and subsequent tax bill. Is that correct?

No question, you were unfortunate, but if the above is true why would you want to spread that misfortune to your brother too?

To ease your burden at your brother's expense is clearly morally wrong. I suspect you know this though.

Well at least if things were done that way there would be a degree of fairness to it if nothing else. The intention was was to give us both an equal (or roughly equal) area of land and thus equal assistance in off-setting the costs that inevitably come with that.

Splitting/sharing the money would be inherently more equitable than having one bother at several thousands euro of a disadvantage (relative to the other).

GingerLily

galwayguy85 wrote: »

Well at least if things were done that way there would be a degree of fairness to it if nothing else. The intention was was to give us both an equal (or roughly equal) area of land and thus equal assistance in off-setting the costs that inevitably come with that.

Splitting/sharing the money would be inherently more equitable than having one bother at several thousands euro of a disadvantage (relative to the other).

Talk to a solicitor, but it's worth noting that no one on this thread thinks perusing this will lead to you a) getting more than your share of the inheritance or b) maintaining a good relationship with any member of your family.

galwayguy85

Thanks for that advise. Sometimes, in the pursuit of fairness (or whatever each of us individually like to define that as) unpleasantness is a part of journey.

Sam Kade

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

You have no right to anything.

Sell the land, use the cash to pay the legal fees and give the rest to your local homeless charity.

I suppose that's what you would do?

galwayguy85

Without going too deep into the case, another surviving uncle is opposed to any sale or the land - at least in the immediate future. I've no intention right now of building on the land - I am living abroad and retraining in I.T at the moment.

shar01

To be honest OP, I wouldn't be asking your brother for a share. If you don't get the answer you want and there's unpleasantness you could end up with your parents taking sides.

From bitter experience, I know it's not worth it.

At the end of the day you have a bit of land, be happy with that.

galwayguy85

Fair play. You're right. I'll take your word for it.

brian_t

galwayguy85 wrote: »

Without going too deep into the case, another surviving uncle is opposed to any sale or the land - at least in the immediate future. I've no intention right now of building on the land - I am living abroad and retraining in I.T at the moment.

It's got nothing to do with the other Uncle.

If it's the same plot of land divided equally between the two of then surely you will need your brothers agreement if the land is not to be sold.

If you were left different plots of land of equal sizes then I sure hope your Uncle got his measurements right.

Jurgen Klopp

You said the uncle was going to give you a similar sum to offset the costs but then his health went downhill.

The amount your brother got was to help with any fees for his share and that's what he should use it for.

I'd right it off as you lost out cause your uncle didn't get around to your lump sum due to his unfortunate bad turn health wise.

Sorry for your loss lad.

cnoc

brian_t wrote: »

What about the other nephews/nieces who didn't get any share of the land.

What is your answer to that question?

4ensic15

The only circumstances in which a person can lay claim to a fair share from a will is where they are a child of the dead person. That is under section 117 of the Succession Act. Nothing can be done in the case of an uncle, aunt or any other relative. Your brother was given money to help him. You were not. Tough.

galwayguy85

Jurgen Klopp wrote: »

You said the uncle was going to give you a similar sum to offset the costs but then his health went downhill.

The amount your brother got was to help with any fees for his share and that's what he should use it for.

I'd right it off as you lost out cause your uncle didn't get around to your lump sum due to his unfortunate bad turn health wise.

Sorry for your loss lad.

I guess we could go in a very infinite loop with this argument...

Edit. I'm sorry. The logic of my argument was that both nephews were intended to get land and thus equal assistance. Bad health and/or timing in my travel plans have obviously affected this outcome. In a totally egalitarian world where siblings at least acknowledged each other , some kind of sharing agreement would be at least considered. Had it been another relative who died and I was got an uneven share (in my favour) of the inheritance by fluke and not much else, I'm certain that my now deceased uncle would be giving me a good old boll-o-king for not sharing it or being somewhat considerate about the outcome.

smjm

Jurgen Klopp wrote: »

You said the uncle was going to give you a similar sum to offset the costs but then his health went downhill.

The amount your brother got was to help with any fees for his share and that's what he should use it for.

I'd right it off as you lost out cause your uncle didn't get around to your lump sum due to his unfortunate bad turn health wise.

Sorry for your loss lad.

Have to agree with this after rereading the initial post.

OP, if your Uncle had given your brother money and told him to share it between the two of you, then you might have a moral case for chasing it. But, as he intended to only give you the same amount again, before the rest was shared out, the only moral case you have is to chase all who benefited from your Uncle's will. Given that you got land as well, it's easy to see how that could end up! If you just go after your brother then you are morally in the wrong.

Munstermissy

The money given to your brother will fall in under CAT and he will have to pay the tax on it less € 3000.00 which your uncle could gift to either of you tax free prior to his death.

You are only entitled to what is in the will. In is not up to any of your family as to who gets what.

Be grateful that your uncle thought of you and as the song goes "let it go".

You will be wasting your time and energy.

Enjoy what you got&#55357;&#56397;

Sleeper12

galwayguy85 wrote:

During my last trip home during the summer, I spoke to my mother about the matter. She is of the opinion that as my brother gave up work for 2 weeks in Australia and had to pay for flights, there is no obligation on him to share a penny of it with me. I would tend to disagree of course. I didn't want to broach the subject with Dad. I know it would upset him too much.

Mod warning on legal advice so I can only suggest seeing a solicitor before you mention this to family and possibly ruin Christmas. I will say this though, I can just as easily say I met the man and he promised me the same amount of money.
As for moral right. IMO no. Your mum already gave her opinion. Bring it up again and you risk upsetting her and its Christmas.
What happened is unfortunate for yourself and I do feel for you but these things happen in life. Your uncle left you the land to bring happiness and not to drive a wedge between the family.
IMO be grateful for the land and leave well enough alone.

brian_t

galwayguy85 wrote: »

My brother was the first to arrive home last Christmas and received a particular sum of money (from the uncle) to help with the inevitable litigation.

Did the Uncle foresee problems arising.