Opening a Café Enniscorthy (Market Square)

Atari Jaguar

Hi,

I've been toying the idea of opening a cafe in Enniscorthy. The reason is mostly because from my experience the town is rife with rubbish cafes. In the main town if I'm correct there's about 3, with one more off on the Dublin Road.

The reasons for opening would be;

1. Offering a quality coffee and dining experience for patrons

2. The town is full of places to eat and drink, but most are rubbish

3. I feel like the town would benift somewhat from a nice lunch spot when there's a fair few shops nearby in and around the square

4. I have experience in Cafes and cooking so I believe wholly I can provide an excellent experience

Some issues to consider

1. The town can be a bit dead during the week, but can pick up a bit during the weekend (this is mostly during the usual drop off seasons with fairly decent perk up of traffic around summer and Christmas)

2. There are 3 other established cafes in the area

3. From what I hear a lot of people in the town are unemployed or on low wage so I'd need to deliver good food and drink at a reasonable low price

4. I've never ran my own business before


I would love any kind of advice on where to begin and if considering the points above I'd be mad to open a cafe. I've been toying the idea of that or a games and DVD store considering we lost xtra vision last year.

Dia1988

Hi,

Not only are you competing with Cafes in Enniscorthy but you are also competing with petrol stations and delis serving murky coffee/sandwiches,as most people will eat while driving to Dublin.

As you say there are a lot of Cafes in Enniscorthy albeit serving poor quality food. Perhaps there's a reason it's poor quality because it is processed for a longer use by date. If you intend to up market with premium quality supplies there will be a shorter use by date, meaning you throwing away good out of date food because the unemployed in Enniscorthy cannot afford to eat out

Some questions:

1. Could you start with a delivery service to factories and businesses in the area offering gourmet food and coffee delivered to their workplace for a modest price (but not too modest)

2. Apart from good food and coffee what other selling points will you have?
Will you have fast free Wifi, will you have a loyalty scheme for repeat customers. Maybe a discount for OAPs and students

3. When you say cafe, is it just tea cakes scones etc or is it pizza, lasagne pasta etc. Will there be a healthy option?

4. Again, it really depends on your location and the market. Are the unemployed people of Enniscorthy really wanting a Gourmet Cafe?

I never want to be critical, but eyes wide open in any business venture!

Atari Jaguar

Some questions:

1. Could you start with a delivery service to factories and businesses in the area offering gourmet food and coffee delivered to their workplace for a modest price (but not too modest)

Maybe not off the bat, but I could try and implement something.

2. Apart from good food and coffee what other selling points will you have?
Will you have fast free Wifi, will you have a loyalty scheme for repeat customers. Maybe a discount for OAPs and students

Yes, I'll definitely get free wifi in, Virgin Media supply the town with their 360mbps. Loyalty cards defiantly as well as OAP and student discounts.

3. When you say cafe, is it just tea cakes scones etc or is it pizza, lasagne pasta etc. Will there be a healthy option?

Not just coffee and scones we will serve hot and cold foods like you mention above.

4. Again, it really depends on your location and the market. Are the unemployed people of Enniscorthy really wanting a Gourmet Cafe?

That's the part I'm not sure of. I will need to do a bit of research.

Walter2016

Firstly, unemployed people and those on low wage won't frequent a cafe.

If you are serving good coffee you will need to charge at least 2.50 and have strong trade.

People don't necessarily go to cafes for "good food" - many are happy with reasonable snack and reasonable coffee. Location, seating and ambience come into it too. Remember Starbucks and insomnia serve reasonable coffee and pre packed sandwiches and are busy.

I don't know enniscorthy, (i used to) but I do know a successful cafe needs a strong coffee business especially early morning. I'd check out similar size towns and see what is on offer there.

Atari Jaguar

Walter2016 wrote: »

Firstly, unemployed people and those on low wage won't frequent a cafe.

If you are serving good coffee you will need to charge at least 2.50 and have strong trade.

People don't necessarily go to cafes for "good food" - many are happy with reasonable snack and reasonable coffee. Location, seating and ambience come into it too. Remember Starbucks and insomnia serve reasonable coffee and pre packed sandwiches and are busy.

I don't know enniscorthy, (i used to) but I do know a successful cafe needs a strong coffee business especially early morning. I'd check out similar size towns and see what is on offer there.

Star bucks are busy because their a known name I feel. Insomnia are the same, chain places like these can serve at a loss because they make up the difference in the quantity.

Walter2016

Atari Jaguar wrote: »

Star bucks are busy because their a known name I feel. Insomnia are the same, chain places like these can serve at a loss because they make up the difference in the quantity.

True, but what I am saying is that not all people are as discerning about their "treat" than you may be. You would need to see if there are enough discerning types to support your business.

Btw - forget dvd rental. Its dead.

Atari Jaguar

Walter2016 wrote: »

True, but what I am saying is that not all people are as discerning about their "treat" than you may be. You would need to see if there are enough discerning types to support your business.

Btw - forget dvd rental. Its dead.

I wasn't considering rental, but sales of Blu Ray and Video Games and systems is very much alive.

Graham

Atari Jaguar wrote: »

chain places like these can serve at a loss because they make up the difference in the quantity.

1 x loss = bad
1000 x loss = badder
100,000 x loss = baddest
100,000,000 x loss = hyper-baddest

Atari Jaguar wrote: »

I wasn't considering rental, but sales of Blu Ray and Video Games and systems is very much alive.

There are no words.

Atari Jaguar

Graham wrote: »

1 x loss = bad
1000 x loss = badder
100,000 x loss = baddest
100,000,000 x loss = hyper-baddest



There are no words.

So you're trying to say that no one buys games anymore :rolleyes: very few rent but I can promise you people buy games. To think otherwise is very foolish.

davindub

Atari Jaguar wrote: »

I wasn't considering rental, but sales of Blu Ray and Video Games and systems is very much alive.

Very poor margins unless you can buy in incredible bulk. Ask your local supplier that went bust quite a few years ago...

If you want ideas for types of cafe that may work, visit Avoca near Bray. To be honest a lot of cafes / restaurants start with great intentions, serve high quality food, fantastic service from the owner, etc. Then margins start to overcome them, interest wanes.

If you can afford it, outsource financial control to an accountant offering virtual financial controller, leaves you to focus on being creative, you will need to do a lot to keep customers visiting.

StupidLikeAFox

Atari Jaguar wrote: »

So you're trying to say that no one buys games anymore :rolleyes: very few rent but I can promise you people buy games. To think otherwise is very foolish.

If HMV/Xtravision can't succeed I don't think I'd be rushing into it as an addon to a coffee shop tbh

I'm also curious about the big chains "selling at a loss"?

Also, have you ever worked in a cafe or coffee shop? You will have to work out your costs, business processes, expected sales etc in advance - it will be very hard to do that unless you have that direct experience on hand

Atari Jaguar

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

If HMV/Xtravision can't succeed I don't think I'd be rushing into it as an addon to a coffee shop tbh

I'm also curious about the big chains "selling at a loss"?

Also, have you ever worked in a cafe or coffee shop? You will have to work out your costs, business processes, expected sales etc in advance - it will be very hard to do that unless you have that direct experience on hand

Yes I have worked in cafes for years. Xtra vision went bust from relying on rentals, this is what I'm trying to convey - I have no interest in RENTING anything. I don't intend on opening that in a coffee shop it would be whichever is more lucrative. I have enough experience working with both. But I'm not a complete clown.

Basically what I mean (I worded it poorly perhaps) I buy coffee in at we'll say €5 a half kilo. To make enough money to pay bills and take home some each cup of coffee would need to be sold at 2.60, after expenses I pocket 30c.

The same coffee could end up being sold by Starkbucks for only 2.20 a cup, a difference of 40c, which means they make somewhat less profit per coffee sold, but where I may only sell in any given day 20 cups, they could sell 200. So I make 30c a cup but they make 10c but by selling 200 cups they've made €20, i have only made €6.

So they've sold at a loss of 20c over me, but have made up the difference by selling 10x as much. In any case they walk home richer than I have.

(Obviously I would want to sell a lot more coffee and make a lot more profit than €6 a day but that's just a base example).

Stheno

6 euro per day after putting in a full shift

Are you including rates etc in your costs?

Dia1988

Hi OP

Have a look at this thread about a boardsie opening a Cafe in Dublin

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057278302

Have you considered the costs involved before the cafe doors even open? It was 8k in the above case.

Will you be able to recoup these costs over a 12 month period?
Have you been quoted a guideline of the cost of public liability insurance?

How confident are you based on research that you will get a steady throughput through the door or even in deliveries ?

What profit/loss margin would you be happy with?

davindub

Atari Jaguar wrote: »

Yes I have worked in cafes for years. Xtra vision went bust from relying on rentals, this is what I'm trying to convey - I have no interest in RENTING anything. I don't intend on opening that in a coffee shop it would be whichever is more lucrative. I have enough experience working with both. But I'm not a complete clown.

Basically what I mean (I worded it poorly perhaps) I buy coffee in at we'll say €5 a half kilo. To make enough money to pay bills and take home some each cup of coffee would need to be sold at 2.60, after expenses I pocket 30c.

The same coffee could end up being sold by Starkbucks for only 2.20 a cup, a difference of 40c, which means they make somewhat less profit per coffee sold, but where I may only sell in any given day 20 cups, they could sell 200. So I make 30c a cup but they make 10c but by selling 200 cups they've made €20, i have only made €6.

So they've sold at a loss of 20c over me, but have made up the difference by selling 10x as much. In any case they walk home richer than I have.

(Obviously I would want to sell a lot more coffee and make a lot more profit than €6 a day but that's just a base example).

Starbucks will purchase coffee for a lot cheaper than you can. In every expense they will also have an advantage, even from consumables like cups. Hence they can sell cheaper, but actually Starbucks are not cheap, they have a brand that is well known.

Look good luck, but be careful, if you lack experience you really need to talk to cafe owners to find out the issues you will need to overcome. Otherwise you won't last the year, like a lot of businesses. No shame in failing if you have made a good effort but its better to do things right if you are going to try at all.

BTW both xtra-vision and HMV had sizable retail operations, but failed. I can imagine times of the year where you can purchase electronical stock at retail prices from the main retailers cheaper than through the wholesalers.....you just can't compete with their purchasing discounts.

screamer

I worked in enniscorthy for a couple of years so here's my take on it.
The town is geographically challenged. We'd not be bothered driving or walking up the hills to go to the fancier places it was wheres handy we can walk to, order, eat and walk back from in an hour. Back then we used to go to cafes pub restaurants etc. There were at least 5 to 6 within walking distance I think there's more now. It's not a particularly prosperous town and suffers hugely from being flooded out on a regular basis not what you want to happen to your business.
If it were me Id consider wexford town before enniscorthy as a location to setup in bigger population more money and tourists in summer. You could consider a gelaterie in summer to add to your offerings.

Walter2016

€5 per 500g will not be good coffee that sets you apart
Java Republic is about €9 per 500g.

As for Xtravision / hmv, I suggest you read the news reports on the reasons it failed.

Atari Jaguar

Walter2016 wrote: »

€5 per 500g will not be good coffee that sets you apart
Java Republic is about €9 per 500g.

As for Xtravision / hmv, I suggest you read the news reports on the reasons it failed.

I was giving a base example I was not suggesting that's the actual sale price.

Atari Jaguar

Walter2016 wrote: »

€5 per 500g will not be good coffee that sets you apart
Java Republic is about €9 per 500g.

As for Xtravision / hmv, I suggest you read the news reports on the reasons it failed.

I was giving a base example I was not suggesting that's the actual sale price.

Graham

Atari Jaguar wrote: »

I wasn't considering rental, but sales of Blu Ray and Video Games and systems is very much alive.

Yeah absolutely, look how well xtravision/blockbuster/hmv did surviving on the retail sales side.

Bricks and mortar retail sales of packaged games and videos/dvds/blurays are a small and still shrinking market.

Looking at the online download and the online retail market you can't possibly hope to compete. You will be undercut on price, you will be undercut on stock.

Graham

Atari Jaguar wrote: »

The same coffee could end up being sold by Starkbucks for only 2.20 a cup, a difference of 40c, which means they make somewhat less profit per coffee sold, but where I may only sell in any given day 20 cups, they could sell 200. So I make 30c a cup but they make 10c but by selling 200 cups they've made €20, i have only made €6.

So they've sold at a loss of 20c over me, but have made up the difference by selling 10x as much. In any case they walk home richer than I have.

Let's start with the basics, somebody selling something cheaper than you is not the same as somebody selling at a loss.

TheWaterboy

I know Enniscorthy pretty well and honestly I am not sure there is room for another coffee shop there unless you are offering something very different.

The Wilds has tried to be different and seems to be succeeding - It is not cheap but is doing very well. Its food is lovely and its coffee is different. Parking is big advantage there also.

I think it will be hard to survive just selling coffee and scones ... I think in the location you want to be you prob need to do some sort of lunch option ... Another thing is fresh baked produce and scones ... Not bought in stuff like lots of the chain stores do. I have noticed O'Briens has become much much busier over the last 6 months .. especially in the morning as people go to work

Also something to take into account - Enniscorthy can be very dead on a Monday. Quite a few places don't open Monday