Certification for an extension

Alkers

We are sale agreed on a terraced property which has had an extension to the rear.

The extension involved knocking out the existing back wall at ground floor level, increasing the floor size downstairs but leaving the upstairs original. The existing back wall would have been supporting the back wall on the upstairs.

The extension is under the size limits and the garden is still big enough that planning was not required. Verified by our surveyor also.

Our surveyor has stated that a Chartered Structural Engineer's Certificate is required for the removal of the load bearing wall and to show how the upstairs is now supported.

The sellers have stated that this is not required as there is an Architect's Certificate which certifies the extension as being exempt from planning and in compliance with building regulations.

Is further documentation required in addition to the architect's certificate and would anyone have a link to where this is set out? The Architect's cert dates from 2014 which is around when the extension was constructed.

Many thanks.

Gumbo

Simona1986 wrote: »

We are sale agreed on a terraced property which has had an extension to the rear.

The extension involved knocking out the existing back wall at ground floor level, increasing the floor size downstairs but leaving the upstairs original. The existing back wall would have been supporting the back wall on the upstairs.

The extension is under the size limits and the garden is still big enough that planning was not required. Verified by our surveyor also.

Our surveyor has stated that a Chartered Structural Engineer's Certificate is required for the removal of the load bearing wall and to show how the upstairs is now supported.

The sellers have stated that this is not required as there is an Architect's Certificate which certifies the extension as being exempt from planning and in compliance with building regulations.

Is further documentation required in addition to the architect's certificate and would anyone have a link to where this is set out? The Architect's cert dates from 2014 which is around when the extension was constructed.

Many thanks.

I would side with the seller here.
The opinion on compliance with planning regs covers the exempted limits and the opinion on compliance with building regulations covers Technical Guidance Document Part A (Structure). So as a seller I would not be going out and paying another engineer to certify something that is already certified.

Calahonda52

I would side with the buyer here!

I have seen cases where the Cert of compliance relates to extension yes but the certifier argues that it does not include structural work done to existing...

Have you, the buyer, seen the Architects report or are you relying on seller verbals.

One test, for buyer, is if he is borrowing it, has lender sight of the report stating what required because this will help what happens if the new buyer wants to sell later..

The other question is, if you can get past the lender, how badly you need the house?.

This issue was often used during the crash for selling houses when it was a buyers market, to drive down the price.

The Engineers report will require opening up to look at the beam and the bearing of the beam on either the wall or if supported on steel stanchions, the stanchion bearing plates.
This opening up will require making good, the engineer's report alone will cost maybe 800 euro

No engineer in their right mind, who cares about their PI, would certify without opening up.
I know I wouldn't.

Gumbo

Calahonda52 wrote: »

I would side with the buyer here!

I have seen cases where the Cert of compliance relates to extension yes but the certifier argues that it does not include structural work done to existing...

Have you, the buyer, seen the Architects report or are you relying on seller verbals.

One test, for buyer, is if he is borrowing it, has lender sight of the report stating what required because this will help what happens if the new buyer wants to sell later..

The other question is, if you can get past the lender, how badly you need the house?.

This issue was often used during the crash for selling houses when it was a buyers market, to drive down the price.

The Engineers report will require opening up to look at the beam and the bearing of the beam on either the wall or if supported on steel stanchions, the stanchion bearing plates.
This opening up will require making good, the engineer's report alone will cost maybe 800 euro

No engineer in their right mind, who cares about their PI, would certify without opening up.
I know I wouldn't.

Agree with this also, but I'm making a big assumption that the original architect that is supplying the compliance with building regulations is also aware of the structural alterations and has taken this into account when issuing the Cert.

I'm also assuming the Cert was issued based on inspections and not after the fact.

If after the fact, then IMO the Cert is useless for structural compliance.

Alkers

Thanks guys.

I would also believe the architect to be the designer of the extension - I will try to clarify that.

Edit - this has arisen from our own surveyor's report, the bank haven't asked for a survey so won't necessarily have sight of anything.

Personally have not seen any of the documents but they are with our solicitor and I will be requesting a copy.

I'm inclined to accept things if the architect was the designer for the extension, in which case he will know the structural support arrangements. If not, we will have to investigate an independent structural survey with opening up.

Looking less and less likely that we'll be closing before the holiday...

Gumbo

Simona1986 wrote: »

Thanks guys.

I would also believe the architect to be the designer of the extension - I will try to clarify that.

Edit - this has arisen from our own surveyor's report, the bank haven't asked for a survey so won't necessarily have sight of anything.

Personally have not seen any of the documents but they are with our solicitor and I will be requesting a copy.

I'm inclined to accept things if the architect was the designer for the extension, in which case he will know the structural support arrangements. If not, we will have to investigate an independent structural survey with opening up.

Looking less and less likely that we'll be closing before the holiday...

It's worth noting that the seller will most likely refuse opening up works. If you were to open up the structural elements, inspect them and then finish the works back to the same standard you could be looking at €1k plus which would have to paid by you.

The seller won't take the risk in case you back out of the sale I would think.

Metric Tensor

It's a tricky one. My two cents:

I doubt the architect (if he she is an architect) is qualified to deem the structural works compliant without some sort of ancillary designs provided by a structural engineer so I see two possibilities. (It is also worth noting that the foundations for the extension should be considered in the same way):

a. When you get the certificate there could easily be some proviso on it with regards to structure (look out for reference to Part A of the building regulations). Ask your surveyor to read the cert too and get his opinion.
b. The certificate does indeed certify complete compliance with the building regulations including structural aspects.

If a. is the case then go back to the vendor and say the structure is clearly not certified. - they will most likely tell you to p*ss off.
If b. is the case then ask the vendor for a copy of the certifiers Professional Indemnity insurance and a letter from the insurer confirming that said professional is insured to certify structural compliance. - again they will most likely tell you to p*ss off.

So after you are told to p*ss off you have to decide what you want to do. As kceire says above if the house is in any sort of desirable location the seller will continue to refuse to provide any further certification or engage in any opening up works to allow certification because they know they can sell it to someone less conscientious than yourself.

This sort of thing really gets my goat and I have no particularly helpful advice for you!

The best you can hope for is that when the architect designed the extension they got structural input from an engineer and that there is evidence of this somewhere. Most architects that I know would have done exactly that - some "back of envelope" lads calling themselves architects may not have!

Alkers

Turns out the extension was put in by previous owners and the architect was not involved in this in any way. The current sellers seem to have been issued his cert when they bought the house and didn't ask for anything further.
So we're taking the architects cert as not certifying the structure whatsoever and have requested a chartered structural engineer's report from the sellers. This was highlighted by our surveyor who noticed some cracking so we wouldn't be happy to take a risk on it.

Alkers

I suppose now is a good time to start considering our course of action if the engineers assessment goes ahead and finds issues with the extension. I guess we would hope to work out a remediation price and negotiate this off of the sale agreed price

Calahonda52

Simona1986 wrote: »

I suppose now is a good time to start considering our course of action if the engineers assessment goes ahead and finds issues with the extension. I guess we would hope to work out a remediation price and negotiate this off of the sale agreed price

Cart way, way, way before horse here in terms of both timing and strategy.
Seller may tell you to go away at either stage so hold your horses for the moment.

Metric Tensor

An unsurprising situation.

To be honest there is feck all an engineer can tell you without opening up works.

Most vendors won't want to pay for this or subject the house to the damage incurred.

This isn't what you want to hear but this is the most important purchase of your life and you have to let your head rule your heart - you have to be prepared to walk away AND as importantly the vendor needs to know you are willing to walk away.

If you start talking about remediation works now they know they have you by the short and curlies. So even if remediation is on your mind (and in your bank account!) the vendor needs to think "This guy might hit the road"

Of course it's a catch 22 because if they think you're a potential runner they won't want to hack holes in their ceilings and walls.

Sorry that's quite opposite opinions in my two paragraphs. I don't envy you!

Alkers

Calahonda52 wrote:

Cart way, way, way before horse here in terms of both timing and strategy. Seller may tell you to go away at either stage so hold your horses for the moment.

Agreed but I'm assuming they will go ahead with the testing and a wise man told me it is better to decide the action to take upon discovering the results of a test before the results are known!

Thanks for the input, hopefully now the vendors will play ball. I think it would be unwise for them not to as the same issue will most likely rise with the next potential buyer.

Calahonda52

Simona1986 wrote: »

..a wise man told me it is better to decide the action to take upon discovering the results of a test before the results are known!

.

Agus
Duirt bean liom go duirt bean lei go bhaca sí a bhean a chuala bhean a rá go raibh Seamasín Bheag ar Mhisce.:D

Keep well, am signing off here!

Johnnyhpipe

Funny how people always seem willing to take a risk on houses. If you rewrote your post about a car - i bet you wouldn't even consider buying it.

I think metric tensor has covered everything here. The choice is now yours to make armed with these facts.

Alkers

Just an update: The vendors have responded to our request for an examination saying they will facilitate one but will not permit any "excavation". We requested the exam through the estate agent and they replied via the solicitor. Our solicitor agrees that the survey would have to include opening up to be of any merit but now informs us that he has a legal obligation to notify the bank about the structural query and is of the opinion that the bank will not issue finance with it outstanding. So now we have to try to convince the other party to reconsider.
The bank never even looked for a survey initially and it seems that we may seriously regret getting one if the sale ends up falling through because of this. The mind boggles at how inefficient and messed up a system this is. My OH is devastated, we are absolutely ready to move in, have been hard at this for 11 months and this is our 3rd time going sale agreed but first time getting as far as contracts issued.

Gumbo

Simona1986 wrote: »

Just an update: The vendors have responded to our request for an examination saying they will facilitate one but will not permit any "excavation". We requested the exam through the estate agent and they replied via the solicitor. Our solicitor agrees that the survey would have to include opening up to be of any merit but now informs us that he has a legal obligation to notify the bank about the structural query and is of the opinion that the bank will not issue finance with it outstanding. So now we have to try to convince the other party to reconsider.
The bank never even looked for a survey initially and it seems that we may seriously regret getting one if the sale ends up falling through because of this. The mind boggles at how inefficient and messed up a system this is. My OH is devastated, we are absolutely ready to move in, have been hard at this for 11 months and this is our 3rd time going sale agreed but first time getting as far as contracts issued.

Don't regret getting the survey, regret showing it to the solicitor!

Alkers

kceire wrote:

Don't regret getting the survey, regret showing it to the solicitor!

We didn't, they replied via the solicitors to our request for the inspection through the estate agent!

Gumbo

Simona1986 wrote: »

We didn't, they replied via the solicitors to our request for the inspection through the estate agent!

Bummer.
I've seen house sales fall through because the surveyor picks up on a wider vehicle entrance which required planning. And rightly so in fairness to the surveyor as if he missed it the buyer could well be screaming also.

But the point is, this buyer wanted the extended gateway but the sale fell through as retention was required as the vendor didn't want to build up the wall to close the width.

I hope you can get to an agreement with them, especially since,you really want the property.

exaisle

Better that the sale fall through rather than the upstairs back wall.....

However, it sounds to me that the current vendors relied on the previous owner's architect's cert....
How long have they owned the property?

Alkers

exaisle wrote:

However, it sounds to me that the current vendors relied on the previous owner's architect's cert.... How long have they owned the property?

Yes that's true, they bought the house in 2014. House being sold now due to a separation which makes things a little more complicated for negotiations.