Brexit and Trump. Do you even have a clue why?

Slydice

The poll does NOT track usernames. Please do vote.

So, for some people, the votes for Brexit and Trump have been...

• a big shock
• not a big shock but not unsurprising
• not even a surprise

and it's all like.. all depending on the who, what where when etc

I wonder have many of us.. here on boards I guess.. thought about how much we know or think we know etc

I was thinking about a 1-5 rating but went with the options I picked to give more try and get clarity from the votes.

Go with Atari Jaguar if none of the options suit

Poll runs for 2 weeks, results will display after the poll closes

The_Valeyard

Says poll does not track in bold letters.....



Now convinced it tracks.

Harry Palmr

Trump succeeded (in the electoral collage vote at least) as he saw the way to win was to turn the machine gun of identity politics back on those who have been the subject of same for decades. "Sick and tired of the blacks, Latinos and women and their advocates screaming for quotas and preferential rights? Vote for the rich white guy (and not the rich white woman)!"

Brilliant really!

kneemos

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Trump succeeded (in the electoral collage vote at least) as he saw the way to win was to turn the machine gun of identity politics back on those who have been the subject of same for decades. "Sick and tired of the blacks, Latinos and women and their advocates screaming for quotas and preferential rights? Vote for the rich white guy (and not the rich white woman)!"

Brilliant really!

Very much doubt Trump had any sort of plan,or may not even have wanted to win.
Trump was trump and somehow appealed to enough morons.The Brits were never crazy about the EU.

Slydice

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Says poll does not track in bold letters.....



Now convinced it tracks.

lol The poll does _NOT_ track usernames. I set that bit up correctly.


The results are showing up already though. I thought the settings I picked the were a 14 day limit and that it set the results to show after the limit.

They 14 day thing is working anyway..

This poll will close on 17-12-2016 at 13:58

ClovenHoof

The world is changing. Globalization has failed. Ordinary people despise legacy politicians and mass media.

It's wonderful to observe the screams of death by the Left and Right. Good riddance.

Harry Palmr

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Trump succeeded (in the electoral collage vote at least) as he saw the way to win was to turn the machine gun of identity politics back on those who have been the subject of same for decades. "Sick and tired of the blacks, Latinos and women and their advocates screaming for quotas and preferential rights? Vote for the rich white guy (and not the rich white woman)!"

Brilliant really!

Thank you so much for giving a perfect example of the thought processes that helped Trump win.. You nailed the impersonation.

stimpson

Because idiots are allowed to vote.

BabyE

stimpson wrote: »

Because idiots are allowed to vote.

Such an intellectually weak argument. Life and people are complex, these issues aren't as clean cut as you are lead to believe. Only an idiot would attribute the success of Trump and Brexit on something as simplistic as ''idiots are allowed to vote''.

myshirt

stimpson wrote: »

Because idiots are allowed to vote.

While you might joke about it, unfortunately that is actually true. As much as 50% of Americans are below average intelligence.

stimpson

BabyE wrote: »

Such an intellectually weak argument. Life and people are complex, these issues aren't as clean cut as you are lead to believe. Only an idiot would attribute the success of Trump and Brexit on something as simplistic as ''idiots are allowed to vote''.

Working man votes for billionaire thinking he'll look after his interests. What could possibly go wrong?

BabyE

Well it's not so much that people aren't idiots, but most people can't grasp the complexity of politics and all it entails, so the majority voting for Clinton or against Brexit were no more informed than a Trump or Brexiter supporter in my opinion. I do put weight into the opinions of people far more intelligent than myself such as Noam Chomsky but you can't follow these people blindly either.

myshirt

BabyE wrote: »

Such an intellectually weak argument. Life and people are complex, these issues aren't as clean cut as you are lead to believe. Only an idiot would attribute the success of Trump and Brexit on something as simplistic as ''idiots are allowed to vote''.

It is true. That is democracy. I have the same amount of votes as the guy off his head on glue and rolling around the tarmac with his underwear outside his pants.

If you asked people what they wanted 100 years ago, they'd have said 'faster horses '. Some people are just plainly idiots, especially in America. America as the wealthiest nation in the world should be ashamed really with the lack of investment in public education. While you might hear some guy cheerfully saying 'its all good in the hood man', you and I both know deep down that there are in fact a lot of socioeconomic problems in the hood.

Cortina_MK_IV

The lizard people are revolting.

BabyE

myshirt wrote: »

It is true. That is democracy. I have the same amount of votes as the guy off his head on glue and rolling around the tarmac with his underwear outside his pants.

If you asked people what they wanted 100 years ago, they'd have said 'faster horses '. Some people are just plainly idiots, especially in America. America as the wealthiest nation in the world should be ashamed really with the lack of investment in public education. While you might hear some guy cheerfully saying 'its all good in the hood man', you and I both know deep down that there are in fact a lot of socioeconomic problems in the hood.

But intelligent people voted for Trump and for Brexit.

0byme75341jo28

myshirt wrote: »

While you might joke about it, unfortunately that is actually true. As much as 50% of Americans are below average intelligence.

That's the whole point of having an "average intelligence" :rolleyes:

myshirt

Alana Fancy Walker wrote: »

That's the whole point of having an "average intelligence" :rolleyes:

Below the median then!

0byme75341jo28

Surely an intelligent person would be able to see the merits of both Hilary/Trump and Brexit/Europe, and then make an informed decision on which side they support. To say only stupid people voted for any of those options is ridiculous, they all have advantages/disadvantages which can change depending on your situation.

BabyE

Yeah like if someone just doesn't support the European project, they see no reason why a continent with diverse language and cultures has any reason to be part of an economic and political union and they vote for Brexit, why are their opinions relegated to being uneducated and uninformed. Who are you to tell them that they are wrong? Why are they wrong? What's wrong with them not wanting external forces dictating their national policy? You can't just impose your own world view on others.

pauliebdub

Combination of many things helped Trump and Brexit.

For Trump:
A weak opponent who few liked or trusted and has been a career politician for decades and had a lot of baggage.
White working class people in places like Pennsylvania and Ohio feeling ignored and left behind.
A fixation by the Democrats with identity politics.

For Brexit.
Similar reasons for why Trump won. Working class people in northern England and Wales feeling left behind and not seeing tangible benefits of EU membership.
Constant negative stories about the EU and related issues like mass immigration from the likes of the sun and the daily mail.
EU being seen as an elitist bureaucracy run by sneering dictatorial appointees like Junker and Tusk.
A once powerful county unsure of its place in the modern world.

stimpson

BabyE wrote: »

Yeah like if someone just doesn't support the European project, they see no reason why a continent with diverse language and cultures has any reason to be part of an economic and political union and they vote for Brexit, why are their opinions relegated to being uneducated and uninformed. Who are you to tell them that they are wrong? Why are they wrong? What's wrong with them not wanting external forces dictating their national policy? You can't just impose your own world view on others.

People voted for Brexit because they were told that immigrants were the root of all their problems. That they could leave the EU and keep access to the single market. That there would be £350m a week extra to spend on the NHS. All lies but they were only too happy to blame their problems on Johnny Foreigner.

I remember an interview with a Leave voter who said she wanted to stay in erode but voted to leave because she wanted to stick it to the government. How stupid can you possibly be?

Academic

myshirt wrote: »

While you might joke about it, unfortunately that is actually true. As much as 50% of Americans are below average intelligence.

“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” — George Carlin

Donald Trump

ClovenHoof wrote: »

The world is changing. Globalization has failed. Ordinary people despise legacy politicians and mass media.

It's wonderful to observe the screams of death by the Left and Right. Good riddence.

No it hasn't.
Stupid people have just forgotten that things they take for granted were not always there or automatically available
Smart people know these things but also are generally wealthier. They will still have relatively easy access to travel/visas etc. And they can get more control and become generally richer due to a change of regime. Change always brings opportunities to new people

"People hate globalization - Sent from my iPhone"


(Oh and people have secret pussy grabbing fetishes)

Grayson

ClovenHoof wrote: »

The world is changing. Globalization has failed. Ordinary people despise legacy politicians and mass media.

It's wonderful to observe the screams of death by the Left and Right. Good riddence.

Globalisation hasn't failed. Immigration to the UK has had a huge positive effect on the economy. The same goes for the US and even here. The problem is that the positive effects are not seen evenly everywhere. Certain areas like London and Dublin boom and others don't. That's bad governance. In any boom the government should make sure that through investment that other areas aren't left behind.

That's been the problem in both the UK and US. They let areas stagnate. In the US it's the mid west and in the UK it's the north.

The vote in the UK wasn't against the EU but rather a vote against the establishment. Through good campaigning by the leave side the EU was seen as a symptom of the ills they faced. Remember in the UK that although the referendum passed, UKIP are still not a political force in the traditional sense. They haven't ever got an MP elected. In the referendum there were towns which have had nothing but benefit from the EU and have next to no immigrants who voted for brexit in the referendum.

In the US Trump is disliked even more than Hilary was. He lost the popular vote. Even amongst the people who voted for him a large amount didn't like him. However there are millions who voted for him. They voted not because they liked his racist and sexist rhetoric but in spite of it. Sure there are some that are racist and sexist but the majority aren't. They feel left behind and weren't so much voting for him as voting against the political establishment who they feel have forgotten them.

Plus there's the lies. Apparently nearly 20% of "liberal" stories that are floated on facebook are wrong but nearly twice as many "Conservative" stories are also false. The majority of people aren't like the people who post here in political threads. They don't follow the news assiduously. They have lives to live, kids to raise and don't have the time or even inclination to read through news sites the way we do. They pick up bits and pieces here and there and especially through social media. They're also not far right or left on the political spectrum. They still want to vote correctly and make a smart decision, unfortunately the news they are presented with are wrong.

The fact is that Trump and UKIP are not incredibly popular. They succeeded through capturing the vote of people who don't actually like them but are willing to give a chance to someone else but also want to deny those already in power.

Jimoslimos

Alana Fancy Walker wrote: »

Surely an intelligent person would be able to see the merits of both Hilary/Trump and Brexit/Europe, and then make an informed decision on which side they support. To say only stupid people voted for any of those options is ridiculous, they all have advantages/disadvantages which can change depending on your situation.

In US politics a large part of the problem is that the electorate is clearly polarised between Rep and Dem. That meant no matter what Trump did or said he could count on a significant rump of loyal supporters. Hilary too, but her problem was soft Democratic voters drifting away - as is usually the case with the incumbent president being a member of the same party.

Undecided voters, the ones you'd imagine to be more likely to make an informed decision, did anything but and voted for Trump. Quite frankly, if you were undecided after hearing lie after lie and ignoring the sh1te Trump came out with you're probably more of an idiot than those firmly in either camp.

Similar applies with Brexit, but also I think that it didn't help that UKIP didn't have proper representation in Westminister. It meant many of their claims went largely unchallenged by the media. I guarantee that if UKIP MPs behaved in a similar fashion to their (out-of-sight, out-of-mind) MEPs they wouldn't have lasted this long. Instead we have the appalling prospect of the next government being the same bumbling Conservative one whose main opposition could be ultra-right Tories UKIP.

paleoperson

Donald Trump wrote: »

No it hasn't.
Stupid people have just forgotten that things they take for granted were not always there or automatically available
Smart people know these things but also are generally wealthier. They will still have relatively easy access to travel/visas etc. And they can get more control and become generally richer due to a change of regime. Change always brings opportunities to new people

"People hate globalization - Sent from my iPhone"


(Oh and people have secret pussy grabbing fetishes)

Shut up about "stupid people" and "smart people", you haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about.

Globalization has failed.

Jimoslimos

paleoperson wrote: »

Shut up about "stupid people" and "smart people", you haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about.

Globalization has failed.

Hehe...it hasn't now has it?

suicide_circus

On the whole I think it's a positive. The current status quo in western contries has gone sour.

All over the world the gulf between rich and poor deepens.

I have less job security, poorer work/life balance, poorer chance of home ownership and raising a family than my father had. This is not progress for the common man.

Will Trump or Brexit be the solution to turning this around? Almost certainly not but it may be a start.

We have been sold a lie.

kneemos

paleoperson wrote: »

Shut up about "stupid people" and "smart people", you haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about.

Globalization has failed.

Do you think the yanks are going to pay twice as much for stuff cos it's made in America?

NIMAN

Brexit and Trump won because there are a lot more (a) ill-informed and (b) racist people than ever let on. They are silent but when they get to the ballot box they can do damage.

To hear people on the radio the day after the Brexit result saying "I didn't know what I was voting for" is not surprising. You can say that thats only a single person out of a large group, but I'd say there are more stupid people like this around than we think. They have no interest in learning policies, and what their vote might mean, they just are easily swayed by the best talker on the campaign. The Facebook generation too play a big part in these types of results imho. The internet is full of idiots who will believe anything they are told, whether its true or not.

I'd say a large number of Trump voters actually believed he was going to build that wall, kick out every illegal immigrant, get every US company to return home, and to put Clinton in prison. If you believe that sort of stuff, excuse me, but you are thick.

TheOven

paleoperson wrote: »

Shut up about "stupid people" and "smart people", you haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about.

Globalization has failed.

Globalisation can't fail. As technology has advanced people have been more connected to a wider area. Even when people lived in tribes they have connected and fought against each other.

What country can you say has shut itself off from the world and is better for it?

dfx-

They are two odd countries both believing they are exceptional, who can stand out on their own. There's two parties in Britain neither of whom put out a strong pro-EU message riddled with Euro-sceptics. The pro-EU party in England and Wales are coming out of an overwhelming general election defeat where they are blamed as coalition politics are alien to the British establishment.

In America, there's not much that can be said for one half of the electorate who actually think a businessman is a good choice for president and the richer the better - not just Trump but that idea prevailed for Romney as well. With enough money, people can be persuaded to vote for anything though you would've hoped that the sheer volume of people (120m) would dilute the danger.

What would be generally disconcerting is if Germany was to fall to it as well as that would be a major turnaround.

paleoperson

TheOven wrote: »

Globalisation can't fail. As technology has advanced people have been more connected to a wider area. Even when people lived in tribes they have connected and fought against each other.

What country can you say has shut itself off from the world and is better for it?

What the hell are you talking about? I'm not talking about countries cutting themselves off from the world, I'm talking about globalization taking over the world and destroying it. Making countries dependent on other ones, rewarding people who run to another country instead of trying to help their own ones, tearing apart peoples and families, destroying cultures and communities, making the workplace a race to the bottom with the winners as the people who will abuse themselves the most or waste the most time working.

foxtrot101

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Similar applies with Brexit, but also I think that it didn't help that UKIP didn't have proper representation in Westminister. It meant many of their claims went largely unchallenged by the media.

A large part of that media have been anti-EU for decades - The Telegraph, Daily Mail, Daily Express and The Sun.

osmiumartist

Grayson wrote: »

The fact is that Trump and UKIP are not incredibly popular. They succeeded through capturing the vote of people who don't actually like them but are willing to give a chance to someone else but also want to deny those already in power.

The UKIP really puts paid to the idea that people are brainwashed by advertising campaigns and can't form their own opinion. They knew they wanted Brexit. They also knew they didn't want UKIP. It's impossible therefore to say UKIP and their dodgy campaigning had anything to do with it really as nobody believed or supported them in the first place.

TheOven

paleoperson wrote: »

What the hell are you talking about? I'm not talking about countries cutting themselves off from the world, I'm talking about globalization taking over the world and destroying it. Making countries dependent on other ones, rewarding people who run to another country instead of trying to help their own ones, tearing apart peoples and families, destroying cultures and communities, making the workplace a race to the bottom with the winners as the people who will abuse themselves the most or waste the most time working.

Right, ok. Not cut off from the rest of the world but keeping completely separate from each other. Good luck with that fantasy.

You can't even spell the thing you hate without using a foreign spelling. We're talking about globalisation as the non jew version right? It can be difficult to tell with some people.

Capt'n Midnight

Tomorrow Italy will throw a spanner in the works with their referendum.

And Austria will be electing a Nazi.

Then France will put Le Pen in the driving seat for the Brexit negotiations.

osmiumartist

TheOven wrote: »

We're talking about globalisation as the non jew version right? It can be difficult to tell with some people.

Oh, here's where we're all supposed to say he's an anti-semite so we can't possibly agree with him, isn't it?
Not working this time I'm afraid. You're not on a Fox phone in.

Harry Palmr

Angry people were kicking against the (establishment) pricks.

It's not as if an absolute majority have to either, to send the wrecking ball across the room. All you need is enough and right now there are enough - enough people on stagnant wages in jobs with no career path and no chance of owning their own homes unless the last living parent has the good grace to drop dead without raking up big bills. Enough people who think that in the end they'd sooner stem the numbers of immigrants esp those who are "taking their jobs". It doesn't matter whether the justifications are right or not - only that enough people think like that to matter. That such a cohort exists in it's current size is really damning of the status-quo protecting centre-ground who have failed to deliver improved living standards in the last decade and appear quite incapable to wresting the initiative from tin pot demigods and tax dodging global corporations who really don't give a **** so long as they move capital and profits freely.

Grayson

osmiumartist wrote: »

The UKIP really puts paid to the idea that people are brainwashed by advertising campaigns and can't form their own opinion. They knew they wanted Brexit. They also knew they didn't want UKIP. It's impossible therefore to say UKIP and their dodgy campaigning had anything to do with it really as nobody believed or supported them in the first place.

UKIP also had little to do with the main leave campaign. It owed its success more to Gove, Johnson etc...

dfx-

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Angry people were kicking against the (establishment) pricks.

It's not as if an absolute majority have to either, to send the wrecking ball across the room. All you need is enough and right now there are enough - enough people on stagnant wages in jobs with no career path and no chance of owning their own homes unless the last living parent has the good grace to drop dead without raking up big bills. Enough people who think that in the end they'd sooner stem the numbers of immigrants esp those who are "taking their jobs". It doesn't matter whether the justifications are right or not - only that enough people think like that to matter. That such a cohort exists in it's current size is really damning of the status-quo protecting centre-ground who have failed to deliver improved living standards in the last decade and appear quite incapable to wresting the initiative from tin pot demigods and tax dodging global corporations who really don't give a **** so long as they move capital and profits freely.

it does matter when the result is the wrecking ball flying around the room taking everyone out because of it.

Earthhorse

On the one hand it's quite simple: the world is in the midst of an extended global recession and people are tired of a hypocritical establishment that hasn't done enough for them.

On the other hand it's more complex involving a rural urban divide, a generation feeling left behind, distrust of mainstream media, fake news, antiquated electoral systems and much, much more.

Either way I wasn't surprised by the results and think I have a good understanding of how they came about.

TheOven

osmiumartist wrote: »

Oh, here's where we're all supposed to say he's an anti-semite so we can't possibly agree with him, isn't it?
Not working this time I'm afraid. You're not on a Fox phone in.

Didn't know were were skipping straight to the whiny little bitch victim part. I'm sorry if people refer to globalism instead of jews to appear not anti Semitic. Either go back to your safe space or stop complaining people think you might have fleas because you sleep in the same bed with the dogs.

Not making stupid claims about globalisation "failing" would be a good start.

Rainman16

Liberalism has failed ordinary people

paleoperson

TheOven wrote: »

Didn't know were were skipping straight to the whiny little bitch victim part. I'm sorry if people refer to globalism instead of jews to appear not anti Semitic. Either go back to your safe space or stop complaining people think you might have fleas because you sleep in the same bed with the dogs.

Not making stupid claims about globalisation "failing" would be a good start.

You obviously have no ability to engage in any sort of adult discussion. You don't even know what globalization means.

Your modus operandi, which I've seen a lot of on this ridiculous board, is to just create an outlandish strawman and accuse the other person of being of that view. For example your idea that being anti-globalization means cutting a country off from the world completely. There's no substance in that, there's no discussion there. It's not talking about politics, it's bull****.

Special Circumstances

Trump won because the alternative was Hillary.

"I know you're angry, vote for me and I'll change things" vs "vote for me because I'm worth it, you deplorable sh1tbags"

TheOven

paleoperson wrote: »

You obviously have no ability to engage in any sort of adult discussion. You don't even know what globalization means.

Your modus operandi, which I've seen a lot of on this ridiculous board, is to just create an outlandish strawman and accuse the other person of being of that view. For example your idea that being anti-globalization means cutting a country off from the world completely. There's no substance in that, there's no discussion there. It's not talking about politics, it's bull****.

Probably shouldn't start off with stupid claims that something as wide ranging and inevitable at globalism has failed. Can't even come up with one successful country without it.

osmiumartist

TheOven wrote: »

Didn't know were were skipping straight to the whiny little bitch victim part.

Someone isn't happy their "call them an anti-semite" debating tactic has been exposed for the lame garbage it is, are they?

Manic Moran

"Way of life" and pride, I think. I have seen a lot of folks saying that Trump or Brexit folks were voting against their own best interests. Were they? Are you sure that what you think are their own best interests are what they think are their own best interests? Or that they actually -are- their own worst interests? We have a long history of ascribing our own logic to other folks. "Russia won't like the damage to their economy, they'll yield." Well, the Russian economy's not doing that well, how is that working out for Ukraine. Maybe they think their national pride is more important to them than Western trade. Similarly maybe Brexit voters did not feel that they could be bribed into loyalty by promises of economic benefit. They would like the benefit, but on their own terms, not Brussels' or Berlin's.

Trump voters seem to have had a more obvious problem: They are suffering. They saw one side that seemed to care nothing for their situation, or their way of life. Talking about raising the minimum wage is wonderful, for places where people are earning a wage of any sort to raise. But the established politicians seemed to pay nothing more than lip service to the plight of rural America. Whatever Trump's bombast, from their perspective it can't be any worse than continuing. And, besides, he seems to at least align with those voters on various issues varying from state rights, a traditional view on law and order, and independence.

Are they right? Maybe not. Is important to understand it? Yes.

I love the "Idiots voting for a billionaire" line spewed out since the election like it means anything. I don't get why you would expect people to dislike his billions that came from private industry more than the Clintons' $111m that came from public life?

A politician would be hung and quartered if they amassed such wealth in Ireland. We criticize every world leader who gets rich but Clinton gets a free pass. Their charity foundation spanks $3m of donations on their daughter's wedding but no, it's Trump that's out of touch.

Trump won for many reasons but racism and sexism certainly weren't the main ones. If you think they were, stop reading the Guardian's political coverage. Sexism just isn't a big voting issue outside of crappy editorials.. Merkel, May, Daenerys, Cersei etc.

DukeOfTheSharp

It's simple really: people are ill-informed and incredibly stupid when it comes to the reality of politics, and the damage their decisions can do. Western culture has gotten to a point where there's barely any culpability anymore; institutional child molestation, rape, murder, embezzlement - they're all crimes which rarely see consequence. So why should people even consider their decisions having impact? It's not like they'll ever feel it. Until they do, and then they're shocked.

In the case of Brexit, the most Googled terms after the referendum were; 'what is the EU?' and 'what is Brexit?', which pretty much tells you the kind of people you're dealing with when it came to that referendum. Racism played a massive role in that too, UKIP tapped into the traditional British xenophobia that comes from reverse colonisation, and they managed to pull off a lie about 350 million a week they could keep for the NHS. Now, UKIP is dissolving from the inside, the key players in this vote have left politics and chances are they'll move abroad so they'll never have to deal with the consequences of their actions. Also, let's not forget those a-hole voters who cast their vote in 'protest'...because that's how votes work.

As for Trump? I mean, it's the same thing really: white people who felt hard done by (but weren't because the figures on white voters in America show that many who voted for Trump were in the $55,000+ annual salary bracket from what I can remember) don't like black, hispanic or middle eastern people, or basically anyone vaguely brown, and they also don't like 'political correctness' or including every citizens' interests. Coupled with that, the Democrats were crippled by Sanders, who didn't come out in immediate support for Hillary and let his toxic followers grow more and more angry, with many voting for Trump or casting a useless 'third party' vote in 'protest'. Sanders never would have won, he's old, Jewish and a Socialist, and all three of those are things that the white, upper-middle class American voter wouldn't have gone near. Then you've the stories of white women crying because they voted for Trump...as if they had no choice because Hillary was a 'warmonger' and was 'evil'...as opposed to the rich tangerine who has brought on actual nazis to his staff, and a lad to works in Goldman Sachs, who's on record for saying 'if we have nukes, why don't we just use them?'.

There's a lot more nuance to this, but the bottom line is that as much as we might want to say the people who voted for these trainwrecks aren't stupid; they are. They towed the line of "Up yours, got mine" and acted selfishly. Now Germany and France are going that route too, and that's freaking terrifying. This is the damage active and willing ignorance and stupidity can do, we're seeing it in real-time. I worry about this when it comes to Ireland too: the last election seen the return of a joint government made up of two of the most reviled parties available. They've actively pushed back against EU aid when it came to the Apple back-tax issue, but refuse to fight back against ill-conceived water charges (let's face it, the infrastructure was never there for something of the scale of Irish Water) and compounding the issue are the useless jackholes of the AAAPBP smugly acting as if 'people power' will change anything...when people power put this government into power to begin with. People don't know what they want, they need a strong political party to take them by the scruff of the neck and drag them into a future that benefits everyone, even if a percentage of those people don't see the benefits. UKIP won because they had a loudmouth racist a-hole and every other party are limp-wristed and incapable of taking control, the loudest person was heard and tapped into the worst of humanity. Trump won because the Democrats are the same; they don't fight hard for what's right. Germany and France? Same deal, different environment. We can dress it up all we want, but people, collectively, are dumb as bricks and half as useful, they don't think about nuance when it comes to politics, it's all 'what about me?' mindsets.