Disney's Moana

Surprised there wasn't another thread about this .. at least none that I could find.

Disney continues their excellent performance of recent years with this excellent movie. They have definitely gotten back to their roots and, in my opinion, the music in this rivals, if not betters, that that was seen in Frozen.

In Ancient Polynesia, when a terrible curse incurred by Maui reaches an impetuous Chieftain's daughter's island, she answers the Ocean's call to seek out the demigod to set things right.

Similarly to the excellent Princess and the Frog, the setting really defines the music, with fantastic Polynesian songs throughout and Jermaine Clement of Flight of the Conchords doing the most David Bowie-like song that I've ever seen in a Disney movie.. which also echoes the excellent Tim Curry's portrayal/singing in Fern Gully.

Agent Coulson

The Rock must the the undisputed heavyweight champion of the box office these days.

Fysh

I saw an early screening of this last week. I thought it was pretty good measured against Disney films, but still felt too "safe" compared to either other mythology-based animation like the Secret of Kells or Song of the Sea, or other more distinctively-written animated features like the best Pixar films. (Heck, the short that preceded the film had a much more distinctive and engaging style, and for me served as an unfortunate demonstration of why Disney's "play it safe" approach counts against them sometimes).

I've never been much of a fan of the song element of Disney's cartoons, and Moana is not the film to change my mind. Jermaine Clement's song was definitely the highlight of the musical numbers.

It turns out Alan Tudyk voiced the chicken, a character which provided far more laughs and entertainment than I would've expected.

Overall, it's pretty good, but it's not Pixar.

constitutionus

was listening to a review of this on line and as soon as i heard the line "singing" i groaned internally.

i know its a disney staple but fecking shrek has made it such a running gag i thought they 'd lay off it for a few years more yet.

i 'll go as it looks like a decent bit of fluff.

but i dont expect a "kubo" or "song of the sea" out of disney . theyre much more about selling the dollies now and following the tried and tested formula of em. . like marvel films you know what your gonna get and are kidding yourselves if you think any different.

the little coconut dudes are why im going.



by the way just google alan tudyks voice work. the AMOUNT of stuff the lad was in is staggering and you wouldnt have a clue with just how different they are. i hadnt a monkies for years that he did the voice of the robot in "i robot" . sounds nothing like him normally. amazing stuff.

MilesMorales1

I loved it. Possibly a little more than Kubo.

D0NNELLY

constitutionus wrote: »

alan tudyks voice work. the AMOUNT of stuff the lad was in is staggering and you wouldnt have a clue with just how different they are. i hadnt a monkies for years that he did the voice of the robot in "i robot" . sounds nothing like him normally. amazing stuff.

Fun fact, he was the voice of Duke of Weasleton in Frozen and Duke Weasleton in Zootopia.

I've been looking forward to this ever since I heard Lin-Manuel Miranda (Hamilton) was doing the score of this.

JP Liz V1

Littlefinger wrote: »

I've been looking forward to this ever since I heard Lin-Manuel Miranda (Hamilton) was doing the score of this.

Between this and Alan Tudyk voicing a character all shiny

This song has been forever going through my head since seeing it.

Brief_Lives

I saw Moana today.. With my toddler, we both loved it..
Lots of singing for the kid, lots of laughs for me..
All in all, well done Disney, nice entrance The Rock..

Sabre0001

Saw it last night and really enjoyed it. Some great songs in there and plenty of laughs.

constitutionus

went on tuesday.

just like i thought its alright but nothing to write home about.

the chickens great and the style is lovely. takes the mick out of itself at times too.

tis grand.

Cienciano

constitutionus wrote: »

was listening to a review of this on line and as soon as i heard the line "singing" i groaned internally.

i know its a disney staple but fecking shrek has made it such a running gag i thought they 'd lay off it for a few years more yet.

i 'll go as it looks like a decent bit of fluff.

but i dont expect a "kubo" or "song of the sea" out of disney . theyre much more about selling the dollies now and following the tried and tested formula of em. . like marvel films you know what your gonna get and are kidding yourselves if you think any different.

the little coconut dudes are why im going.



by the way just google alan tudyks voice work. the AMOUNT of stuff the lad was in is staggering and you wouldnt have a clue with just how different they are. i hadnt a monkies for years that he did the voice of the robot in "i robot" . sounds nothing like him normally. amazing stuff.

Shrek was 2001. Tangled and Frozen happen since then, so expect singing in Disney movies

The Black Oil

Bar some minor issues, pretty sure I'd put this high up in my films of 2016. I went to see it on positive word of mouth (or a review?) that was basically "she's a princess and doesn't need to rescued". She's assertive, defiant, physically skilled and independent. It was quite charming and well-executed, imo. I enjoyed the rhythm and delivery of the action. I wasn't that into the songs, tbh, but liked the flow of the film. The audience was full of kids and parents who were really into it too.

namloc1980

Went to see this with the kids. Thought it was very enjoyable. Actually liked the songs...."Shiny" being a highlight. The water effects were spectacular, better than those in The Good Dinosaur for me. All round good (if typical Disney) stuff.

Chancer3001

excellent movie. so enjoyable. songs that stick in your head a d amazing vsuals.

Mark Hamill

Cienciano wrote: »

Shrek was 2001. Tangled and Frozen happen since then, so expect singing in Disney movies

Wreck-It Ralph and Zootopia are recent Disney movies and didn't have signing in them. I only saw the very early trailers for this and they didn't indicate any singing in it.
It nearly completed ruined the moive for me when they started singing. Even as fun as some of the songs are if you listen to them outside of the movie (e.g. "You're Welcome" and "Shiny"), they immediately pulled me out of the movie when they are jammed in in place of actual character development and acting. It's not nearly as bad as Frozen for completely unearned character growth forced through via song, but IMO it's still another example of why musicals are poison to storytelling.

The_Captain

My 5 year old enjoyed it but forgot about it quite quickly, which is also matches my feelings really. The Rock is essentially a supporting actor in the story, his character’s (Maui?) backstory is interesting but not the focus of the film, while Moana’s story is a by the numbers Disney cliché.
The Princess follows her heart to do the right thing against her family’s wishes. She’s ready to give up by the end of the second act, but she struggles on to save her family, then love wins in the end.

StringerBell

A superior effort to Frozen imho, with better songs too! But will not have anything like the global appeal of it, took the kids to see it earlier today and found myself pretty glued to the screen too. Cinema was full too which adds to the atmosphere I guess and will rewatch to see how it holds up at home. One of the better films I have seen over the last 12 months.

constitutionus

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Wreck-It Ralph and Zootopia are recent Disney movies and didn't have signing in them. I only saw the very early trailers for this and they didn't indicate any singing in it.
It nearly completed ruined the moive for me when they started singing. Even as fun as some of the songs are if you listen to them outside of the movie (e.g. "You're Welcome" and "Shiny"), they immediately pulled me out of the movie when they are jammed in in place of actual character development and acting. It's not nearly as bad as Frozen for completely unearned character growth forced through via song, but IMO it's still another example of why musicals are poison to storytelling.

yup.

can you IMAGINE "how to train your dragon" with singing ?

*shudder*

Cienciano

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Wreck-It Ralph and Zootopia are recent Disney movies and didn't have signing in them. I only saw the very early trailers for this and they didn't indicate any singing in it.
It nearly completed ruined the moive for me when they started singing. Even as fun as some of the songs are if you listen to them outside of the movie (e.g. "You're Welcome" and "Shiny"), they immediately pulled me out of the movie when they are jammed in in place of actual character development and acting. It's not nearly as bad as Frozen for completely unearned character growth forced through via song, but IMO it's still another example of why musicals are poison to storytelling.

Personal opinion aside: Do you really think there's anyone working in Disney that regret putting singing into Frozen?
This won't be as big as frozen, but don't forget who these movies are aimed at.

Mark Hamill

Cienciano wrote: »

Personal opinion aside: Do you really think there's anyone working in Disney that regret putting singing into Frozen?
This won't be as big as frozen, but don't forget who these movies are aimed at.

Of course no one at Disney regrets putting music in Frozen, it made stupid amounts of money for them. But my point was not that singing in movies makes them less profitable, it's that singing in movies make bad storytelling (when the singing is used in place of character development).
There are plenty of movies aimed at kids without without singing in them: How to Train Your Dragon, as was mentioned above; the Pixar movies; The Iron Giant etc. There are even Disney movies aimed at the same audience without singing in them, I already mentioned Zootopia and Wreck-It Ralph.

Space Dog

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Of course no one at Disney regrets putting music in Frozen, it made stupid amounts of money for them. But my point was not that singing in movies makes them less profitable, it's that singing in movies make bad storytelling (when the singing is used in place of character development).
There are plenty of movies aimed at kids without without singing in them: How to Train Your Dragon, as was mentioned above; the Pixar movies; The Iron Giant etc. There are even Disney movies aimed at the same audience without singing in them, I already mentioned Zootopia and Wreck-It Ralph.

TBH that's just your opinion, taste is always subjective. I've always loved Disney songs and they've never pulled me out of the movie. I'd say they won enough Best Origial Song and Score Oscars to prove that lots of people rather enjoy them.

Cienciano

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Of course no one at Disney regrets putting music in Frozen, it made stupid amounts of money for them. But my point was not that singing in movies makes them less profitable, it's that singing in movies make bad storytelling (when the singing is used in place of character development).
There are plenty of movies aimed at kids without without singing in them: How to Train Your Dragon, as was mentioned above; the Pixar movies; The Iron Giant etc. There are even Disney movies aimed at the same audience without singing in them, I already mentioned Zootopia and Wreck-It Ralph.

I think the films you mentioned are aimed at a slightly different and older audience. Moana and Frozen are standard princess films for kids. I don't think the storylines are really effected myself.
Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast, The Lion King, The Little Mermaid are all for a more similar age as Moana and Frozen. You really think that "I'll, Make a Man, Out of You" song from Mulan was bad for the storytelling? Or King Louis "I Wanna Be Like You" from Jungle Book? Leaving Gastons song out of Beauty and the Beast would be criminal. Or the dwarves singing Hi-Ho.

Mark Hamill

Space Dog wrote: »

TBH that's just your opinion, taste is always subjective.

TBH, that has to be the most redundant phrase that gets put out on boards - Every post on this website is an opinion, doubly so any post talking about the quality of a piece of media. Opinions aren't inherently wrong, and they aren't inherently right, hence I put my opinion up on this thread to be discussed so that I can get some insight into why many people seem not to share it.
Now, to discuss your opinion...

Space Dog wrote: »

I've always loved Disney songs and they've never pulled me out of the movie. I'd say they won enough Best Origial Song and Score Oscars to prove that lots of people rather enjoy them.

Winning Oscars doesn't imply that lots of people enjoyed the movies a s a whole, it just implies that the people who voted in oscars (those that actually bothered to watch the animated nominees) enjoyed the songs themselves.

Mark Hamill

Cienciano wrote: »

I think the films you mentioned are aimed at a slightly different and older audience.

I don't think that the Pixar movies, or the Iron Giant are aimed at older audiences (Zootopia may have some themes that younger kids wont get, but I think they would still enjoy them), the majority of Pixar movies are rated U.

Cienciano wrote: »

Moana and Frozen are standard princess films for kids. I don't think the storylines are really effected myself.
Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast, The Lion King, The Little Mermaid are all for a more similar age as Moana and Frozen.

See, that reads like a circular argument to me. What makes those films "princess films for kids"? It's not the presence of princess - Moana, Mulan, The Jungle Book and The Lion King etc aren't about princess. The Jungle Book and the Lion King don't even have female main characters. It seems that what makes a "standard princess film for kids" is the presence of singing. But them being "standard princess film for kids" is also kind of used as justification for the singing. Brave is a fantastic animated movie about an actual princess but it doesn't have any singing it, so I don't think it would be considered a "standard princess film for kids".

Cienciano wrote: »

You really think that "I'll, Make a Man, Out of You" song from Mulan was bad for the storytelling? Or King Louis "I Wanna Be Like You" from Jungle Book? Leaving Gastons song out of Beauty and the Beast would be criminal. Or the dwarves singing Hi-Ho.

Yes. As I pointed out in my first post, whilst the songs themselves may be enjoyable, they don't work as part of effective storytelling. Remove the music and leave the lyrics as dialogue and you have characters just directly saying their emotions and motivations to the camera, which is abysmal storytelling.

Frank O. Pinion

This was the 56th "Walt Disney Animated Classic", and I would put Moana at the bottom of that list, even lower than the package films. I enjoyed the other 55 to varying degrees (Pinocchio being my #1) but Moana did nothing for me. I probably need to rewatch it sometime, but I was very disappointed. Especially after the fantastic Zootopia, which I thought was one of the best films overall of 2016.

LLMMLL

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Yes. As I pointed out in my first post, whilst the songs themselves may be enjoyable, they don't work as part of effective storytelling. Remove the music and leave the lyrics as dialogue and you have characters just directly saying their emotions and motivations to the camera, which is abysmal storytelling.

Completely disagree. Songs can be excellent storytelling. Yes the lyrics are NEVER subtle but there's a reason for that. They usually provide a direct insight into the characters thoughts. Not every form of storytelling has to be a super subtle "what is the character thinking? Open to many interpretations" affair.

One of the most affecting things I saw last year was from the first season of crazy ex girlfriend when a character sings about what a worthless stupid bitch she is after getting rejected. To me that provided much more insight than an hour of super subtle acting that leaves one person thinking "she hates herself" and another thinking "she's angry at him".

Also take into account that song and storytelling are pretty much as old as storytelling itself. It's fairly clear that a LOT of people find it an effective storytelling technique.

Tipsy McSwagger

Fantastic, beautiful, funny, emotional, great soundtrack, I bloody loved it, 5/5*.

Mark Hamill

LLMMLL wrote: »

Completely disagree. Songs can be excellent storytelling. Yes the lyrics are NEVER subtle but there's a reason for that. They usually provide a direct insight into the characters thoughts. Not every form of storytelling has to be a super subtle "what is the character thinking? Open to many interpretations" affair.

It's amazing how every non-musical children's animation manages to clearly get across what's in the characters head without just saying directly at the camera what they are thinking.

LLMMLL wrote: »

Also take into account that song and storytelling are pretty much as old as storytelling itself. It's fairly clear that a LOT of people find it an effective storytelling technique.

People like a lot of things that aren't effective story telling (how much did the Transformers series make at the box office again), popularity doesn't imply quality.

Singing is lazy storytelling, it lets bad writers get away with bad writing and bad character development and most people give it a pass not because it makes the story better, but because they like singing along to the songs.

Chancer3001

Every musical ever would disagree

Chancer3001

I also disagree that it's lazy writing.

Which do you think is easier?

To write a children's movie

Or write a children's movie that contains several very good and entertaining songs?

Surely the sones add hugely to the difficulty

Fysh

The difficulty involved in writing a children's film incorporating songs is not somehow laudable, it's a direct result of the fact that a lot of the time (at least for Disney features) the writing and composing of songs is not done by the same team who write the film script. (Look for The Sweatbox if you don't believe me, it's a documentary about Sting's experience writing songs for The Emperor's New Groove and hasn't had a proper release - but a workprint was leaked a while back). The songs all too frequently don't stand up on their own, nor do they mesh well enough with the film to not feel grating when they start.

This is why some folks find stuff like Moana clunky - for every well-written and entertaining song like Jermaine Clement's Shiny, there's a bunch more which blend pop-by-numbers melodies with lyrics lacking nuance, subtlety, personality or wit.

Stone Deaf 4evr

'Shiny' and 'you're welcome' are constantly on spotify in my house, and its not just because the kids like em!


somewhat related - Lego batman soundtrack is stellar.

Fysh

"Shiny" is definitely a good example of how to do a song for a Disney film right:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93lrosBEW-Q

If only the rest of the songs had been to the same standard!

S.M.B.

I really disliked that song and it's the one that took me out of the movie. Felt really jarring to channel Flight of the Concorde in the middle of a Disney movie.

How Far I'll Go is up there with Disneys best in recent years imo.

LLMMLL

Mark Hamill wrote: »

It's amazing how every non-musical children's animation manages to clearly get across what's in the characters head without just saying directly at the camera what they are thinking.

So they use different methods of storytelling. Doesn't mean one of them is bad. I acknowledged that insights into characters can be given without song, but that song is a particularly effective way to do this.

People like a lot of things that aren't effective story telling (how much did the Transformers series make at the box office again), popularity doesn't imply quality.

I'm not just talking about popularity of one crappy franchise that nobody has ever said is a.pinnaclemof storytelling. I'm talking about a device that has been popular since the very beginning of storytelling itself. Hardly Transformers.

Singing is lazy storytelling, it lets bad writers get away with bad writing and bad character development and most people give it a pass not because it makes the story better, but because they like singing along to the songs.

Its not bad storytelling. It can provide the heightened emotional response that music tends to do.

Mark Hamill

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Every musical ever would disagree

Chancer3001 wrote: »

I also disagree that it's lazy writing.

Which do you think is easier?

To write a children's movie

Or write a children's movie that contains several very good and entertaining songs?

Surely the sones add hugely to the difficulty

You mean, which is easier:
To write a story where characters get across their motivations with acting and character development and story
or
To write a story where characters get across their motivations by just saying them in rhyme?

But you misunderstand what I meant, even if it's harder to write a musical it doesn't make it's still lazy storytelling.

Mark Hamill

Stone Deaf 4evr wrote: »

'Shiny' and 'you're welcome' are constantly on spotify in my house, and its not just because the kids like em!


somewhat related - Lego batman soundtrack is stellar.

I quite like them too, to be honest, they are good fun songs. But as storytelling? Imagine if books just dropped a whole chapter or two of storytelling and characterisation in favour of throwing in a poem or two which just tell you who is good and who is bad? How is that better?

And then there are the rest of the songs from the movie. There are 8 songs sung during the film, and I had to google that because I could only remember one other (the power ballad). It isn't it always the way that musicals (animated ones anyway) only have 2 or 3 memorable songs? The power ballad, the comedy song and maybe one other (the romantic song/character introduction song). How many songs in musicals are immediately forgotten after the movie?

Mark Hamill

LLMMLL wrote: »

So they use different methods of storytelling. Doesn't mean one of them is bad. I acknowledged that insights into characters can be given without song, but that song is a particularly effective way to do this.

Doesn't mean both or even either are good, so that's a moot point.

LLMMLL wrote: »

I'm not just talking about popularity of one crappy franchise that nobody has ever said is a.pinnaclemof storytelling. I'm talking about a device that has been popular since the very beginning of storytelling itself. Hardly Transformers.

My point was that popularity doesn't make them good.

LLMMLL wrote: »

Its not bad storytelling. It can provide the heightened emotional response that music tends to do.

Music, with no lyrics or context, can do that too. Its bad when used for storytelling because it is invariably used to hide the holes in the story and character motivations by manipulating emotions to not notice them. Even the Simpsons did it, with the monorail episode were they all get riled up to build a monorail because of the song even though it makes no sense.

Look at "Let It Go" from Frozen, the biggest song from one of the biggest animated musicals, the pinnacle of the movie for many people. From a story point of view, it is appalling. Consider the song's lyrics just as telling the story: Elsa goes from depression about her oppressive and restrictive upbringing to "f*ck it" in the space of about 20 seconds. How is that earned? She supposedly had, what, ~10 years of upbringing telling her to restrict and oppress herself, to the point where she couldn't even play with her sister and that is overcome by her just talking to herself on a hill? Instead of scenes showing the extent of her oppression over that ~10 years, scenes showing her rebellion starting to bubble up underneath over time, maybe even showing it turn to resentment scenes that would justify her going "f*ck it" and abandoning her kingdom and maybe adding some tension in the movie that she might altogether reject her sister (and therefore make the reunion all the more heartfelt). There is a single song belted at you as hard as a broadway singer can belt.
I don't want to be tricked into an emotion response, I want a story to compel one from me.

Stone Deaf 4evr

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I quite like them too, to be honest, they are good fun songs. But as storytelling? Imagine if books just dropped a whole chapter or two of storytelling and characterisation in favour of throwing in a poem or two which just tell you who is good and who is bad? How is that better?

have you ever read tolkiens hobbit and lord of the rings? mother of god.

LLMMLL

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Doesn't mean both or even either are good, so that's a moot point.


My point was that popularity doesn't make them good.


Music, with no lyrics or context, can do that too. Its bad when used for storytelling because it is invariably used to hide the holes in the story and character motivations by manipulating emotions to not notice them. Even the Simpsons did it, with the monorail episode were they all get riled up to build a monorail because of the song even though it makes no sense.

Look at "Let It Go" from Frozen, the biggest song from one of the biggest animated musicals, the pinnacle of the movie for many people. From a story point of view, it is appalling. Consider the song's lyrics just as telling the story: Elsa goes from depression about her oppressive and restrictive upbringing to "f*ck it" in the space of about 20 seconds. How is that earned? She supposedly had, what, ~10 years of upbringing telling her to restrict and oppress herself, to the point where she couldn't even play with her sister and that is overcome by her just talking to herself on a hill? Instead of scenes showing the extent of her oppression over that ~10 years, scenes showing her rebellion starting to bubble up underneath over time, maybe even showing it turn to resentment scenes that would justify her going "f*ck it" and abandoning her kingdom and maybe adding some tension in the movie that she might altogether reject her sister (and therefore make the reunion all the more heartfelt). There is a single song belted at you as hard as a broadway singer can belt.
I don't want to be tricked into an emotion response, I want a story to compel one from me.

Music is part of storytelling. A crappily written scene won't get an emotional reaction from me no matter how much the violins swell. But the combination of a good story with music can make the storytelling even better.

I disagree with both your examples here. Why can't Elsa go from feeling bad to euphoric quickly? I can imagine a non musical scene where she does the same based on her decision to not care about pressure and expectation anymore. I'm pretty sure I've seen similar scenes in TV and film before.

And using a satirical comedy cartoon as an example of unrealistic character motivations..........

Mark Hamill

LLMMLL wrote: »

Why can't Elsa go from feeling bad to euphoric quickly?

I explained this in my previous post, want to actually address my explanation and try explaining your position, rather than just saying "I disagree"?

LLMMLL wrote: »

I can imagine a non musical scene where she does the same based on her decision to not care about pressure and expectation anymore. I'm pretty sure I've seen similar scenes in TV and film before.

Saying that you can imagine a non-musical scene where it is done properly is silly, you shouldn't have to imagine a better scene than what you are given.

LLMMLL

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I explained this in my previous post, want to actually address my explanation and try explaining your position, rather than just saying "I disagree"?


Saying that you can imagine a non-musical scene where it is done properly is silly, you shouldn't have to imagine a better scene than what you are given.

I didn't say it was a better scene. I'm saying that characters can change their attitude quickly in a non musical scene if they make a choice to let go of societal/familial pressures. It's a familiar story and we've all seen it in various TV shows and movies. So why hold it against a musical? Not every story or character change has to be a slow burn.

So to address your point: character change can be as simple as someone going "feck it", especially if there is an explicit or implicit build up of repression/resentment, which Frozen certainly had.

Mark Hamill

LLMMLL wrote: »

I didn't say it was a better scene. I'm saying that characters can change their attitude quickly in a non musical scene if they make a choice to let go of societal/familial pressures. It's a familiar story and we've all seen it in various TV shows and movies. So why hold it against a musical? Not every story or character change has to be a slow burn.

So to address your point: character change can be as simple as someone going "feck it", especially if there is an explicit or implicit build up of repression/resentment, which Frozen certainly had.

It doesn't have to be slow, but it does it need to be earned, which it wasn't in Frozen. As I said before:
"Instead of scenes showing the extent of her oppression over that ~10 years, scenes showing her rebellion starting to bubble up underneath over time, maybe even showing it turn to resentment scenes that would justify her going "f*ck it" and abandoning her kingdom and maybe adding some tension in the movie that she might altogether reject her sister (and therefore make the reunion all the more heartfelt). There is a single song belted at you as hard as a broadway singer can belt.".
Even before the song Frozen didn't show any build-up of repression/resentment in Elsa, because it was too busy with the redhead one singing about snowmen.
A song is a way to trick the viewer into feeling like the character motivations are justified when they aren't. You get picked up by the emotion of the song, it's why people tend to only remember the emotional songs (the power ballad, the romantic song, even the comedy song) rather than the 5 or 6 b-list songs that accompany them in musicals. Music and song have always been very powerful emotional manipulators, probably the main reason there is an oscar for best score.

StringerBell

Watching Moana with the kids for about the 9th time right now, still enjoying it.

LLMMLL

Mark Hamill wrote: »

It doesn't have to be slow, but it does it need to be earned, which it wasn't in Frozen. As I said before:
"Instead of scenes showing the extent of her oppression over that ~10 years, scenes showing her rebellion starting to bubble up underneath over time, maybe even showing it turn to resentment scenes that would justify her going "f*ck it" and abandoning her kingdom and maybe adding some tension in the movie that she might altogether reject her sister (and therefore make the reunion all the more heartfelt). There is a single song belted at you as hard as a broadway singer can belt.".
Even before the song Frozen didn't show any build-up of repression/resentment in Elsa, because it was too busy with the redhead one singing about snowmen.
A song is a way to trick the viewer into feeling like the character motivations are justified when they aren't. You get picked up by the emotion of the song, it's why people tend to only remember the emotional songs (the power ballad, the romantic song, even the comedy song) rather than the 5 or 6 b-list songs that accompany them in musicals. Music and song have always been very powerful emotional manipulators, probably the main reason there is an oscar for best score.

It showed her as a boisterous child, who became fearful (didnt want anyone near her), withdrawn, and cold towards the sister she was once warm and close to. I think most people can recognise her repression from that. It sounds like you want it spelled out to you.

What you see as manipulation, I see as heightening. I dont think that song would have been as popilar as it was if the story surrounding it wasnt strong. Ive seen plenty of corny dramas with swelling orchestral moments that leave me cold. But a good story and a good score together can be magical.

Mark Hamill

LLMMLL wrote: »

It showed her as a boisterous child, who became fearful (didnt want anyone near her), withdrawn, and cold towards the sister she was once warm and close to. I think most people can recognise her repression from that. It sounds like you want it spelled out to you.

What you see as manipulation, I see as heightening. I dont think that song would have been as popilar as it was if the story surrounding it wasnt strong. Ive seen plenty of corny dramas with swelling orchestral moments that leave me cold. But a good story and a good score together can be magical.

We are not talking about orchestras, we are talking about songs sung by characters in lieu of acting and character development.
We were shown the set-up of Elsa's childhood (the accident and her being told to hide her powers) and then pretty much nothing else of her until she gave her powers away and ran up the mountain. Yes, we can imagine what probably happened in the intervening years, but the movie doesn't allow that by having her go through it all in one song. From our point of view she went through all the of emotional growth associated with her oppression and subsequent release in the space of less than 2 minutes. Up to the point of the song (or at least the reveal of her powers right before it), the movie could have been about how the kingdom needed her powers but she was too afraid to use them due to her oppressive upbringing, and it would have been as equally justified by the preceding scenes in the movie (if not more) as what we got.
The song didn't heighten the emotion of her choice, it manipulated the audience into thinking the emotion was justified by the set up.

LLMMLL

Mark Hamill wrote: »

We are not talking about orchestras, we are talking about songs sung by characters in lieu of acting and character development.

Youve talked about both songs "in place" of chaacger development (quotes because i dont agree with you on that), but also the manipulative power of music which is what i was addressing there.

We were shown the set-up of Elsa's childhood (the accident and her being told to hide her powers) and then pretty much nothing else of her until she gave her powers away and ran up the mountain. Yes, we can imagine what probably happened in the intervening years, but the movie doesn't allow that by having her go through it all in one song. From our point of view she went through all the of emotional growth associated with her oppression and subsequent release in the space of less than 2 minutes. Up to the point of the song (or at least the reveal of her powers right before it), the movie could have been about how the kingdom needed her powers but she was too afraid to use them due to her oppressive upbringing, and it would have been as equally justified by the preceding scenes in the movie (if not more) as what we got.
The song didn't heighten the emotion of her choice, it manipulated the audience into thinking the emotion was justified by the set up.

Think youre misrepresenting the movie. Theres quite a long gap between "build a snowman" and "let it go" in which elsa is cold and reserved and clearly repressed. The fact that her transition from reoression to freedom is quick is perfectly valid storytelling. I dont think seeing her 75% repressed, then 50% then 25% then finally free would be good storytellkng.

Mark Hamill

LLMMLL wrote: »

Youve talked about both songs "in place" of chaacger development (quotes because i dont agree with you on that), but also the manipulative power of music which is what i was addressing there.

My point was orchestral music used over dramatic acting is different to songs sung in and by characters in place of dramatic acting.

LLMMLL wrote: »

Think youre misrepresenting the movie. Theres quite a long gap between "build a snowman" and "let it go" in which elsa is cold and reserved and clearly repressed. The fact that her transition from reoression to freedom is quick is perfectly valid storytelling. I dont think seeing her 75% repressed, then 50% then 25% then finally free would be good storytellkng.

The point is not necessarily to see a steady progressive loss of repression, its for the loss to be justified over the given time-line and for the replacement to make sense with the character. Elsa went from 100% repressed to f*ck everything (0% repressed) in a few minutes, justified by her song. Better writer would have set it up earlier by showing she was never 100% repressed, that there was always some percentage of rebellion and resentment battling the repression and it would have made a better story for it.

We are repeating the same notions at each other quite a bit, so let me change tact. Is there any Pixar or Disney non-musical film that you think would have been improved if made as a musical? Do you think the emotional beats of the likes of Zootopia, Ratatouille or Iron Giant would have been more effecting if sung at the audience?

LLMMLL

Mark Hamill wrote: »

My point was orchestral music used over dramatic acting is different to songs sung in and by characters in place of dramatic acting.


The point is not necessarily to see a steady progressive loss of repression, its for the loss to be justified over the given time-line and for the replacement to make sense with the character. Elsa went from 100% repressed to f*ck everything (0% repressed) in a few minutes, justified by her song. Better writer would have set it up earlier by showing she was never 100% repressed, that there was always some percentage of rebellion and resentment battling the repression and it would have made a better story for it.

Theres no such thing as 100% repression though. If she was 100% repressed it would just be her personality and she wouldn't have the same struggles with control. An intelligent viewer can map from her struggles to control her powers to her emotional unhappiness, added in with the contrast to her childhood personality to know that she could let go at any moment.

We are repeating the same notions at each other quite a bit, so let me change tact. Is there any Pixar or Disney non-musical film that you think would have been improved if made as a musical? Do you think the emotional beats of the likes of Zootopia, Ratatouille or Iron Giant would have been more effecting if sung at the audience?

Impossible to tell without seeing what those movies would have been like as musicals.

The problem is you are assessing musicals as "non-musical movie + music = musical" without realising it's a different art form, and requires different ways of storytelling. That doesn't make it "bad", just "different" if any of the movies you mentioned became musicals they'd probably be structured differently. Just like theatre is not just a movie that you watch live, and a movie is not just a condensed TV series. They have their own beats, nuances etc.

So you may view it as cheating to have a character sing their emotions directly, but it's just a different form. You don't like it and that's fine. But you'll never convince me it's bad storytelling