Buzzards protection under threat?

yknaa

A call to have the protection orders on buzzards lifted has been made following a number of incidents in which the birds of prey have taken terriers and other animals in deadly swoops through mid Tipperary

http://www.tipperarystar.ie/news/home/225876/attacking-buzzards-target-tipp-terriers.html

Mickeroo

Is that a Waterford Whispers type site?

magicbastarder

the caption on the photo is a classic.

trebor28

Unfortunately not. Local newspaper around here.
Some joke though

Mickeroo

trebor28 wrote: »

Unfortunately not. Local newspaper around here.
Some joke though

It is truly one of the most daft things I've seen in a long time.

magicbastarder

what does this line mean?

"However, it has also been revealed that there are birds of prey circling overhead Deputy Michael Lowry in Glenreigh, Holycross"

Mickeroo

That was the line that made me almost sure it was a parody, not that the rest was much better. A wingspan of three feet? Terrifying!

magicbastarder

my aunt lives in templetuohy. i wonder if the local grapevine might have some more info.
maybe the correspondent got the story garbled, and it's actually michael lowry attacking buzzards, not the converse.

Del.Monte

It's a fact that Buzzards acting in groups have been known to carry off full sized cows and small farmers still sitting on their tractors.

trebor28

magicbastarder wrote: »

what does this line mean?

"However, it has also been revealed that there are birds of prey circling overhead Deputy Michael Lowry in Glenreigh, Holycross"

As you can imagine he's not the best journalist, you should see his sports reporting, but I think what he is getting at, is that there's buzzards in other areas around mid tipp. Which is where this paper covers.

And maybe he's trying to say to people to get onto Mr Lowry to do something about it.

trebor28

Maybe we should be looking at this differently, as he says in the article, giant buzzards.

Maybe there's a new subspecies which is much larger. 😛

NomadicGray

What sort of protection do buzzards get? Is there a protection on hunting grounds?

I believe it's buzzards that I see spending a lot of time in the fields behind my house which I think is being pushed for development.

dodderangler

As someone who hunts myself il be deeply annoyed to hear of anyone shooting these birds.

Bsal

'were preyed upon and killed by giant buzzards ' jesus I'd love to see one of these 'giant' Buzzards, I only have normal sized ones near me.

What a ridiculous story.

OpenYourEyes

NomadicGray wrote: »

What sort of protection do buzzards get? Is there a protection on hunting grounds?

I believe it's buzzards that I see spending a lot of time in the fields behind my house which I think is being pushed for development.

No, the birds themselves and their (active) nests, eggs and chicks are all protected but there's no generic protection over their habitat or any designated areas for them.

Birdnuts

That story is about as credible as the one about the "man eating" pine martens in Longford earlier this year. Depressing to think that such ignorance about our native wildlife still exists in 2016:(

Half-cocked

Birdnuts wrote: »

That story is about as credible as the one about the "man eating" pine martens in Longford earlier this year. Depressing to think that such ignorance about our native wildlife still exists in 2016:(

Bad enough that members of the public would be so ill informed but for it to appear in the media with supposed editorial controls in place?

cd07

I wonder how many of the shooting fraternity Michael lowry has banging his door down? Absolute nonsense. As an avid shooter myself and im someone who is obsessed with birds of prey i think any gun club suspected of shooting buzzards should be shut down. Lets be honest here every pheasant season we hear of marauding buzzards and all the poor farmed pheasants are being killed. If is not buzzards destroying pheasants its peregrines annihilating racing pigeons

OpenYourEyes

The offending article was covered by the Raptor Persecution Scotland blog below:

https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/2016/12/06/giant-buzzards-warns-tipperary-newspaper/

And Birdwatch Ireland released a full statement today:
http://www.birdwatchireland.ie/Publications/eWings/eWingsIssue87December2016/IrresponsibleTipperaryStararticleonBuzzards/tabid/1574/Default.aspx

The Diddakoi

Perhaps he can do his next "article" on the plague of rat-size micro-terriers which are currently residing in Tipperary

cd07

Just got off the phone to the papers editor. It was quite an amusing conversation. She explained to me that a prominent environmentalist brought the story to them!! I asked if they had any evidence from and vets that may have treated the dog etc...? None. Theres a suprise. I outlined the probable outcome for buzzards following such an article...and she just said well we trust the dog owner's word and the so called environmentalists too. I've heard enough!!

recedite

magicbastarder wrote: »

what does this line mean?

"However, it has also been revealed that there are birds of prey circling overhead Deputy Michael Lowry in Glenreigh, Holycross"

Its so long since the last election, when the Deputy was last seen to move, that the buzzards have mistaken him for carrion.

recedite

cd07 wrote: »

I asked if they had any evidence from and vets that may have treated the dog etc...?

I commend you for your scepticism, nevertheless I believe the story because my own dog was nearly taken by a normal sized buzzard when it was a puppy. The bird swooped right behind me and the puppy only escaped by diving in under the chair I was sitting on. This in Co. Wickow, two years ago. I'm guessing the terrier mentioned in the story was also a puppy.
But I don't see this as a major issue. In other countries fully grown pets are killed by raptors, snakes,alligators, pumas, leopards etc.
So if its just the odd puppy out on its own that gets taken, we should be able to live with it.

cd07

Okay say it did happen (not that i think it did) does it really warrant front page news of some rag? I smell at rat here and believe theres someone involved with vested interests....

recedite

cd07 wrote: »

does it really warrant front page news....

I see if you back and click the OP link now, there is a story about a stolen dog on the front page.
I never realised they were so fond of dogs in Tipperary

magicbastarder

http://www.birdwatchireland.ie/Publications/eWings/eWingsIssue87December2016/IrresponsibleTipperaryStararticleonBuzzards/tabid/1574/Default.aspx

trebor28

Here is the response from the Tipperary Star from last week.

They conveniently forgot to make it available online imagine.

recedite

Seems a balanced follow-up by the newspaper. The journalist has done all that can be expected of them. You can hardly expect them to go looking for the buzzards droppings to examine for traces of bones of said terriers.
The refusal of people to accept it is simply the triumph of their own preconceptions over somebody else's (fairly reported) experience.

magicbastarder

that's bollocks that their report was neutral, and i'm basing that solely on the caption on the photo on the original article which reads 'a buzzard on the rampage'.

cd07

Yep a pathetic response to try and deflect any wrong doing by them. As I said I spoke the both the journalist and editor by phone last week and to be honest, wouldn't find either very approachable or friendly.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Balanced, my eye. It basically stood by the original story.

magicbastarder

i may be seeing my aunt at the weekend, who lives in templetuohy. will be interesting to see if she's aware of the story.

magicbastarder

magicbastarder wrote: »

"However, it has also been revealed that there are birds of prey circling overhead Deputy Michael Lowry in Glenreigh, Holycross"

Cardasshian Birds of Prey

Grolschevik

Deleted User wrote:

Cardasshian Birds of Prey

Klingons on the starboard bow...

magicbastarder

recedite wrote: »

Seems a balanced follow-up by the newspaper. The journalist has done all that can be expected of them.

they seem to quote at least one, probably two sources; but if they wanted readers to accept the bona fidas (sic) of the story, at least explain why, or make reference to the fact that neither of the sources are named.

recedite

From what little I know of newspaper protocol, the press generally don't have to name their sources, but they do have to know who they are.

cd07

Stinks of an influential gun club tryin to 'protect' pheasants. Funny how marauding buzzard stories always coincide with the pheasant shooting season. I shoot myself so I hear the kind of crap thats said within gunclubs

philstar

Coincidentally, i saw a buzzard on the way to nenagh on saturday

unusual to see them this side of the country isn't it? they're mainly in Leinster

whyulittle

philstar wrote: »

Coincidentally, i saw a buzzard on the way to nenagh on saturday

Was it circling ominously overhead looking for any dogs / kids / large livestock with you?

Del.Monte

whyulittle wrote: »

Was it circling ominously overhead looking for any dogs / kids / large livestock with you?

Sounds like it might have been looking for vintage Massey Fergusons.

OpenYourEyes

recedite wrote: »

From what little I know of newspaper protocol, the press generally don't have to name their sources, but they do have to know who they are.

Ideally they'd also know if their source actually knows what they're talking about too, or at least attempt to balance out the rubbish with someone who does know what they're talking about! The language used is very leading, attempting to stir up fear and emotion rather than have any basis in fact, logic or probability - worthy of one of the red tops! Silly season lasts 12 months of the year these days!

recedite

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

Ideally they'd also know if their source actually knows what they're talking about too, or at least attempt to balance out the rubbish..

One source was described as "environmentalist" which although vague, indicates they should be able to make a reasonably accurate report.
"Giant" is perhaps a bit sensationalist, but then a large buzzard is giant compared to the more common sparrowhawks and kestrels that people in the area might be more used to seeing over the years. Original article estimated a wingspan of "up to 3 feet" and the clarification article went larger to 40-48 inches. These seem like very conservative and reasonable estimates to me. My Hamlyn bird guide gives a max wingspan of 46-54 inches for the common buzzard (and up to 60 inches for the much rarer rough-legged) The newspaper article also mentions the attack as being "very unusual" 3 or 4 times.

Birdwatch Ireland is not being helpful IMO by attempting to rubbish the article and pretend that the events portrayed are impossible and untrue.
Terms such as "outlandish claims" and "misinformation" are just plain wrong; they are based on willful ignorance. Other BWI claims such as "Buzzards also prey on rabbits, but are incapable of killing prey larger than this" are misleading and irrelevant because a "toy" breed of terrier could easily be smaller than a large rabbit.

In other countries they pay compensation to farmers who lose lambs to eagles, instead of pretending it doesn't happen. In this instance I doubt the dog owner would be looking for money, but if BWI wanted to help they could go visit them, and maybe show some sympathy instead of hostility.

I'd suggest that maybe a little plaque or memento with some words inscribed on it in memory of the pet could be given to them. Like a little posthumous purple heart medal, with the consolations of BWI and their gratitude to the owner for hosting (or tolerating) such spectacular wildlife. Then follow up with some practical advice, like "get a larger dog next time"

OpenYourEyes

Via BirdWatch Ireland Cork Branch Facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/BirdWatchIrelandCorkBranch/photos/a.115228075276305.18368.114162665382846/953424264790011/?type=3&theater

In light of the recent misinformation put out in the media about Buzzards and what they eat or don't eat here is a fact sheet put together by branch member and Buzzard expert Tony Nagle. We hope this information, based on a detailed study of Buzzards in County Cork, will put the record straight and give you solid scientific information to use should you need it for a discussion on the subject. It is illegal to kill a Buzzard and a number of Buzzards have been found dead or injured in the county in recent months and if anyone sees or hears anything in please let us and the authorities know.

pawrick

The more I read the original article the more ridiculous their follow up piece sounds, it's not worthy of someone who wants to be be called a journalist. It's just such a terrible piece of sensationalist nonsense worthy only of some lunatics internet blog rantings.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

recedite wrote: »

One source was described as "environmentalist" which although vague, indicates they should be able to make a reasonably accurate report.
"Giant" is perhaps a bit sensationalist, but then a large buzzard is giant compared to the more common sparrowhawks and kestrels that people in the area might be more used to seeing over the years. Original article estimated a wingspan of "up to 3 feet" and the clarification article went larger to 40-48 inches. These seem like very conservative and reasonable estimates to me. My Hamlyn bird guide gives a max wingspan of 46-54 inches for the common buzzard (and up to 60 inches for the much rarer rough-legged) The newspaper article also mentions the attack as being "very unusual" 3 or 4 times.

Birdwatch Ireland is not being helpful IMO by attempting to rubbish the article and pretend that the events portrayed are impossible and untrue.
Terms such as "outlandish claims" and "misinformation" are just plain wrong; they are based on willful ignorance. Other BWI claims such as "Buzzards also prey on rabbits, but are incapable of killing prey larger than this" are misleading and irrelevant because a "toy" breed of terrier could easily be smaller than a large rabbit.

In other countries they pay compensation to farmers who lose lambs to eagles, instead of pretending it doesn't happen. In this instance I doubt the dog owner would be looking for money, but if BWI wanted to help they could go visit them, and maybe show some sympathy instead of hostility.

I'd suggest that maybe a little plaque or memento with some words inscribed on it in memory of the pet could be given to them. Like a little posthumous purple heart medal, with the consolations of BWI and their gratitude to the owner for hosting (or tolerating) such spectacular wildlife. Then follow up with some practical advice, like "get a larger dog next time"

I don't know why you are so intent on defending this piece. There is absolutely nothing in the vague use of the term 'environmentalist' to suggest the person knew anything about Buzzards. An environmentalist work their salt would know the facts are skewed and would have been named in the piece.

A yorkie can weigh in excess of 3 kg. The average wild rabbit in Ireland is under 2kg.

I'm no fan of birdwatch Ireland but there's no way they should show sympathy for something that probably did not happen.

recedite

Joshua Salty Self-righteousness wrote: »

A yorkie can weigh in excess of 3 kg. The average wild rabbit in Ireland is under 2kg.

Again, its misleading to use statistics in that way. You're taking the largest Yorkies and comparing them to an average rabbit. "Average" Yorkies weigh about the same as rabbits, and the increasingly popular "toy" strains are usually smaller.

..most Yorkshire Terriers fit into the 3 to 7 lb. (1.36 kg to 3.17 kg) range.

source

recedite

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

Via BirdWatch Ireland Cork Branch Facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/BirdWatchIrelandCorkBranch/photos/a.115228075276305.18368.114162665382846/953424264790011/?type=3&theater

An interesting table, but it purports to show that buzzards eat only vermin species, which strikes me as a piece of propaganda.
I often see buzzards hunting either rabbits or earthworms, depending on the weather. I have also seen them taking squirrels. And I've seen them trying to take a puppy.
In N. Ireland, Rooney and Ruddock found them taking mostly songbirds;

Birds were the main prey item identified (26.8%) with passerinescomprising the majority of birds (19.4%), in particular Starling Sturnus vulgaris (4.5%) and Song Thrush Turdus philomelos (2.5%). Small mammals were second most frequent (19.2%) with lagomorphs occurring less frequently (16%).

source

"Lagomorphs" as listed there would include hares, which would be bigger and heavier than rabbits.
I don't see most of these prey items listed on the table?
A bit more honesty from BWI would be good.

OpenYourEyes

recedite wrote: »

An interesting table, but it purports to show that buzzards eat only vermin species, which strikes me as a piece of propaganda.
I often see buzzards hunting either rabbits or earthworms, depending on the weather. I have also seen them taking squirrels. And I've seen them trying to take a puppy.
In N. Ireland, Rooney and Ruddock found them taking mostly songbirds;
source

"Lagomorphs" as listed there would include hares, which would be bigger and heavier than rabbits.
I don't see most of these prey items listed on the table?
A bit more honesty from BWI would be good.

Propaganda? Just for clarity those pieces of research are from Queens University Belfast, and University College Cork, both with plenty of well known and experienced scientists and conservationists having worked on them. Those pieces of research are also in peer-reviewed journals, having been reviewed by anonymous and independent scientists. If you think there's anything questionable about them I suggest you contact the editors of the respective journals detailing exactly what those problems are. As for the authors of the facebook post - if you think there's evidence of Buzzards eating a very different variety or ratio of prey to those quoted there, I'm sure you can get in touch with them and they'll add it in.

Also it doesn't purport to show that Buzzards eat only vermin species - it's recalling the fact that they examined Buzzard diet in a given area, over a set period of time, using a standardised methodology and that is exactly what they found - nothing more, nothing less. The methodology may have been one with the limitation of under-recording things like earthworms which are soft-bodied and leave no bones or shells, but it's unlikely those buzzards coughed up Lassie and Scooby Doo but the scientists involved decided to not mention it!

Without having the time to read through it in detail, I think you reference an abstract for data gathered by Rooney and Ruddock in 2008, and the Rooney study in that table uses data from 2008 and other subsequent years? The table also mentions 'other birds' at 14.4% but in the abstract you refer to it's 19.4% a minor difference, easily accounted for by having a larger sample size of data.

Lagomorphs, as you correctly surmised, includes Hares. In papers like that its common to group together similar species for comparison with other studies and discussion - just like saying "songbirds" rather than having a table with each individual species listed. The NI study explicitly states that amongst the Lagomorph prey items there were mostly Rabbits and nine Hares. I'll play devils advocate and add to that the fact that Buzzards are scavengers and we don't know how they came across the Hares - could have been roadkill, particularly weak or sickly individuals etc.

recedite

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

The table also mentions 'other birds' at 14.4% but in the abstract you refer to it's 19.4% a minor difference, easily accounted for by having a larger sample size of data.

The big difference there is that in the BWI table crows (vermin) are make up the majority of avian prey, whereas in the other study passerines do.
I often see crows chasing buzzards, but not the other way round. But buzzards are resourceful creatures and prey could vary from one region to another. And it could be that the Cork study was skewed by (possibly?) taking place at a time when the crows were nesting, and the buzzards were preying on unattended nests.

Worms would not show up in pellets, but squirrels should. Anyway, a study of pellets only shows what pellets are composed of. It does not show what buzzards prey on, or will attempt to prey on. That fact should be acknowledged.

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

I'll play devils advocate and add to that the fact that Buzzards are scavengers and we don't know how they came across the Hares - could have been roadkill, particularly weak or sickly individuals etc.

Maybe.
And then again, maybe not

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

recedite wrote: »

The big difference there is that in the BWI table crows (vermin) are make up the majority of avian prey, whereas in the other study passerines do.
I often see crows chasing buzzards, but not the other way round. But buzzards are resourceful creatures and prey could vary from one region to another. And it could be that the Cork study was skewed by (possibly?) taking place at a time when the crows were nesting, and the buzzards were preying on unattended nests.

Worms would not show up in pellets, but squirrels should. Anyway, a study of pellets only shows what pellets are composed of. It does not show what buzzards prey on, or will attempt to prey on. That fact should be acknowledged.

Maybe.
And then again, maybe not

I researched Buzzards for many years and studied their diet in detail over long periods - in the North East. Out findings were very close to those of the chart above.
Anybody who has watched Buzzards will attest to their preference for forbids.

But, you'll argue otherwise, for some reason.

OpenYourEyes

recedite wrote: »

The big difference there is that in the BWI table crows (vermin) are make up the majority of avian prey, whereas in the other study passerines do.
I often see crows chasing buzzards, but not the other way round. But buzzards are resourceful creatures and prey could vary from one region to another. And it could be that the Cork study was skewed by (possibly?) taking place at a time when the crows were nesting, and the buzzards were preying on unattended nests.

Worms would not show up in pellets, but squirrels should. Anyway, a study of pellets only shows what pellets are composed of. It does not show what buzzards prey on, or will attempt to prey on. That fact should be acknowledged.

Maybe.
And then again, maybe not

Yeah but the second study is just an abstract and is based on the year 2008, whereas the the main study is a fully written and peer-reviewed one based on three years data, including 2008 which we can reasonably assume is the same dataset from the abstract you're preferring! So you're cherry-picking the bits you like. In general a larger sample size is preferred as it's considered more accurate. Better to make inferences from three years data rather than just one year.

I don't have the Cork study to hand, but I'd be willing to bet that it did take place during the breeding season, as did the NI study. So they're comparable in that sense. And obviously there's the possibility of regional variation - hence why they've been studied in these two areas, and data for both is presented here.

A study of pellets gives a good indication of what's being preyed upon, and the biases are generally discussed or referred to. I can't think of a reason why one mammalian species would show up a lot in pellet analysis, but another of similar size wouldn't... unless of course someone was trying really really hard to convince themselves of something that all evidence and probability indicates isn't true that is...