So whats the bad aspects to Scandinavian living?

NIMAN

We are constantly told how great their health system, their education system and their political systems are, but it can't all be great, can it?

Do they look at any other country and think "I wish I lived there?", or "why can't we do it like that here in Sweden?".

I'll start.

1) I know that they have higher taxes than most, which of course wouldn't go down too well in most places.

2) Denmark is among one of the highest users of anti-depressants per capita

McDermotX

Grass is always greener etc etc

I suspect the Swedish have plenty to moan about along with us with regard to their infrastructure - especially in certain urban pockets.

pauliebdub

Miserable weather, drab towns and cities, cold joyless people who are no craic at all, 60% of your salary going on tax, pints for 12 euros. What's not to love.

tomwaterford

I blame the immigrants

Ferrari3600

From what I've been told, the political correctness is genuinely stifling in Norway and Sweden. Denmark, not so much. Finland is different altogether.

Ferrari3600

NIMAN wrote: »

2) Denmark is among one of the highest users of anti-depressants per capita

That is not necessarily a negative thing.

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/worlds-happiest-countries-take-most-antidepressants

Stigura

Funny, I've little enough to add to this thread. Only; It was just a couple of days ago, as I say this, that a chat room mate of mine ~ English bloke, been in Norway twenty years now. He was saying how he'd about had enough.

I didn't really know what to say. Hardly felt suggesting he flee back 'home' would fit it. Twenty years? Englandistan? Dunno ..... Hardly the place he left.

But, the horror stories he's, casually told me, from Norway! Purely conversational stuff. Open, chat room, blokes having a beer and talking to eachother stuff. God almighty!

Hey, Nog?

Eh? No!!!

Ferrari3600

pauliebdub wrote: »

Miserable weather, drab towns and cities, cold joyless people who are no craic at all, 60% of your salary going on tax, pints for 12 euros. What's not to love.

I feel your pain, Ireland can be depressing right enough.

This thread is about 'Scandinavian living' though.

05eaftqbrs9jlh

It's not quite the same, but my sister lives in The Netherlands and she is like a CONVERT. All I ever hear is how sh!t Ireland is because everything over there is better. So much for "don't know what you got" etc. They pay higher taxes but they get basically everything they need for nothing (health, transport, education, welfare).

I can only imagine in so prosperous a place (Scandinavian OIL) they don't want for too much (JOBS, EDUCATION, PROSPERITY).

Centralisation of power has done wonders for the competent. It's just a shame we have the "jobs for the boys" culture. I hate the mantra as much at anyone, but in my sector (substitute primary school teacher), they have made it unsustainable for anyone who is not connected by getting rid of days here and there that people like me relied on to survive. Hence now I post on boards 107% more since this time six months ago. (crying emoji, bills stacked up so you can't see my face). OK I might be drunk but that doesn't make what I say less relevant! It probably does.

Ferrari3600

Stigura wrote: »

Funny, I've little enough to add to this thread. Only; It was just a couple of days ago, as I say this, that a chat room mate of mine ~ English bloke, been in Norway twenty years now. He was saying how he'd about had enough.

I didn't really know what to say. Hardly felt suggesting he flee back 'home' would fit it. Twenty years? Englandistan? Dunno ..... Hardly the place he left.

Crumbs, England and most of the UK would have changed a hell of a lot in those twenty years.

Stigura wrote: »

But, the horror stories he's, casually told me, from Norway! Purely conversational stuff. Open, chat room, blokes having a beer and talking to eachother stuff. God almighty!

Hey, Nog?

Eh? No!!!

From pure curiosity, what kind of stories?

PhoenixParker

The government taking such good care of you stifles the formation of both strong and weak interpersonal relationships.

Walking through a densely populated suburb on a sunny Saturday and it's like a ghost town. Everyone in a supermarket staring fixedly at a point 2m in front of them on the floor for terror of eye contact. A table of friends in a bar late on a Saturday night basically staring at each other, occasionally one takes a sip and says a sentence but mostly sitting in silence. The nurses in the hospital assuring my husbands family that they didn't need to visit my father in law daily as they were taking good care of him.

Joylessness and a sense of isolation.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Massive income tax to pay for all the social programmes.

My Dad has a great story of visiting Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland in the summer of 1975. On the final night of their tour he asked a Finnish chap in a bar in Helsinki do the Scandinavian people share any sort of common bond.

The man said yes, "We, Denmark and Norway all hate Sweden."

Ferrari3600

Nehemiah Ancient Anorexic wrote: »

It's not quite the same, but my sister lives in The Netherlands and she is like a CONVERT. All I ever hear is how sh!t Ireland is because everything over there is better. So much for "don't know what you got" etc. They pay higher taxes but they get basically everything they need for nothing (health, transport, education, welfare).

I can only imagine in so prosperous a place (OIL) they don't want for too much (JOBS, EDUCATION, PROSPERITY).

Centralisation of power has done wonders for the competent. It's just a shame we have the "jobs for the boys" culture. I hate the mantra as much at anyone, but in my sector (substitute primary school teacher), they have made it unsustainable for anyone who is not connected by getting rid of days here and there that people like me relied on to survive. Hence now I post on boards 107% more since this time six months ago. (crying emoji, bills stacked up so you can't see my face). OK I might be drunk but that doesn't make what I say less relevant! It probably does.

So the Netherlands have oil, and are in Scandinavia? One learns new things every day!

Stigura

Ferrari3600 wrote: »

Crumbs, England and most of the UK would have changed a hell of a lot in those twenty years.

It bends my mind to even Think of how his kids ~ oldest one I know of now being a later teen ~ would find being plunged into ..... well ...

Ferrari3600 wrote: »

From pure curiosity, what kind of stories?

Speak to someone who'd shifted to Norway, in the last two decades

05eaftqbrs9jlh

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote:

The man said yes, "We, Denmark and Norway all hate Sweden."

Bahaha

Ferrari3600 wrote:

So the Netherlands have oil, and are in Scandinavia? One learns new things every day!

not quite the same

Sorry, I have a lot of misplaced faith in our education system's ability to nurture our comprehensive abilities. If only we had harnessed the wealth of all that oil off our coasts, we might be able to fund the schooling of some of our future generations!

Ferrari3600

Nehemiah Ancient Anorexic wrote: »

Bahaha



Sorry, I have a lot of misplaced faith in our education system's ability to nurture our comprehensive abilities. If only we had harnessed the wealth of all that oil off our coasts, we might be able to fund the schooling of some of our future generations!

Ah...ok. Hmm.

Richard Hillman

It's just a cold version of Istanbul

Atoms for Peace

Nothing wrong with high taxes if you get something in return.

Greentopia

pauliebdub wrote: »

Miserable weather, drab towns and cities, cold joyless people who are no craic at all, 60% of your salary going on tax, pints for 12 euros. What's not to love.

Oh, when did you live there then or are you just trolling, or clueless? I spent 8 years in Gothenburg and can tell you that apart from the weather (cold dark winters yes but I loved the snow and their summers can be lovely), the rest of what you wrote is complete BS.

Their towns and cities are well planned and designed and put most of ours to shame, and every local area and apartment block has safe, well kept outdoor play areas for kids. Gothenburg and Stockholm are beautiful cities. Stockholm is not called the 'Venice of the North' for nothing.

There is excellent sports and leisure facilities for all, great affordable public transport, excellent standard of universal affordable healthcare with clinics everywhere-decentralised so you don't have to go to a hospital for routine procedures, very cheap and sometimes completely free(!)public childcare. Education is seen as something that is a right for all, you get great Govt. support to make it affordable to attend 3rd level or go back to education as an adult and life long learning is seen as a priority.
Housing rents were very affordable for me and tightly controlled with rent caps so no-one has to end up on the streets because they can't afford to pay extortionate rents like here. Oh and there is great security of tenure there as a renter and every building has communal laundry facilities, lock up rooms in the basement to store your stuff and bicycle rooms to store your bike safely.

Yeah a real **** hole huh??

A country that is much more egalitarian than Ireland and where women have more rights to control their bodies than this country because religion has been rightfully relegated to something that's seen as a nice fairytale when you're a child, but really something one should grow out of into adulthood and which has no place in formulating public policy.

I also felt very safe there in the second largest city day or night, which is more than can be said for when I'm in Dublin, or even Waterford at night.

Cold joyless people? lol Swedes love the Irish and as soon as they found out I was Irish they were really positive and friendly towards me. Yes it can take a bit longer to break the ice there as they have the opinion that it's a sign of respect to keep one's distance from strangers to give them their space, but once you become friends with a Swede you have a friend for life.

I found them to be kind, gentle, intelligent and well informed and if you were ever on a night out with a Swede you would know they are absolutely good craic and could drink most Irish under the table actually!

My experiences of living and working there were overwhelmingly positive. We could learn a lot from them IMO.

P.S-the tax rate I paid was 32%, not 60!

fits

The tax thing is way overstated. Its not that much higher than ireland if at all at my income level at least. I lived in Finland for a few years. Its a very well run country with lots of things we could learn from. Agree the towns can be a bit joyless and certainly where i was i found cultural events a bit lacking unless you are into ice hockey and heavy metal. I liked the people i met.

764dak

UEFA is biased against teams from northern Europe.

Tilly

My little brother lives in Sweden and I've been over loads. It's a fab country with really lovely people. He has a 2yr old and they really focus on family life which is amazing. He pays €100 a month for childcare.

Greentopia

PhoenixParker wrote: »

The government taking such good care of you stifles the formation of both strong and weak interpersonal relationships.

Has that been your experience when you lived there then? because it certainly was not mine. Why would good Govt. supports impact on interpersonal relationships?? what is your evidence to support that?

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Walking through a densely populated suburb on a sunny Saturday and it's like a ghost town. Everyone in a supermarket staring fixedly at a point 2m in front of them on the floor for terror of eye contact. A table of friends in a bar late on a Saturday night basically staring at each other, occasionally one takes a sip and says a sentence but mostly sitting in silence. The nurses in the hospital assuring my husbands family that they didn't need to visit my father in law daily as they were taking good care of him.

Joylessness and a sense of isolation.

Gee, people in supermarkets who want to just do their shopping and get home without wanting to be there to make friends... whoda thought? supermarket shopping is the same dull experience wherever you go. I'm there to shop, full stop. The local ICA shop where I lived had very polite staff and Swedish people are in general are polite and give people lots of personal space. As an introvert I liked that actually.

Terror of eye contact? way overstating the mark. People keep to themselves, that's all and expect you to do the same. If you had bothered to actually talk to any Swedes though you would find them engaging and warm.

It's true there is not the same casual friendly exchanges with strangers you find here, and I do like the warmth of Irish people, but there can be a flip side of intrusiveness and nosiness that I don't like.

The sitting in silence thing-it's called being comfortable with silence. Swedes unlike the Irish don't feel the need to fill every second with jabbering away, they prefer to have something concrete to talk about than just talk any old bollox just to fill the space. And they never talk over each other, they let you say whatever you want before they will respond, which I found refreshing and something I really miss here.

The nurses were just telling you what the truth was as they saw it. They don't sugar coat things there and you know exactly where you stand with them as a consequence.

I didn't find life in Sweden joyless in the least-I had a very rich experience there and made several life long friends. I loved the culture, Scandinavian design, respect for 'Naturen', a real work life balance and wonderful public services. I never felt isolated as I had a good working environment where I was respected and as I said I made good friends.
You only get out what you put in to living there.

I wonder what you call joyful? if it's the usual Irish things of going out and getting hammered and living for the weekends you can keep it.

iDave

Type gender equal snow plows into google and you'll see how mad Sweden has become.

pajor

Nehemiah Ancient Anorexic wrote: »

It's not quite the same, but my sister lives in The Netherlands and she is like a CONVERT. All I ever hear is how sh!t Ireland is because everything over there is better. So much for "don't know what you got" etc. They pay higher taxes but they get basically everything they need for nothing (health, transport, education, welfare).

I can report that your sister isn't full of BS but is almost full of it. :pac: I've been living in The Netherlands for almost 2 years and this country is far from perfect.

Higher taxes - there are tax breaks and tax credits, but tax starts at about €19k at 36.55%.

Health - my state compulsory health insurance will be going up by almost 10% next year. I get GP visits at no extra costs, but all medecines and everything else I must pay for (the first €385).

Transport - if you live in Amsterdam it's happy days. But like in Ireland if you live in a more rural area (as rural as you can get here) public transport is rubbish. I started a new job a few weeks back. 30-35 mins in the car or 3 buses taking 1hr 20. I pay €600/year to tax a 1.4L Golf and €1.46/L to put petrol in it.

Education - okay, this one is true. The UN say Dutch children are the happiest in the world. I get the impression that schools here are very good. Third level education not quite the same.

Welfare - I don't think the dole is quite as generous here, but if you lose your job you get something. Though I can't quite complain about my health insurance premium. Next year it will be €99/month but the gubberment give me an allowance of €83/month.

But all things considered I do prefer living here.

'The jobs for the boys' (vriendinpolitiek) culture is alive and well here too, no need to be so cynical. :pac: The amount of old money that slushes around this country, 'I scratch your back, you scratch mine' can sometimes be mind boggling.

jam_mac_jam

Greentopia wrote: »

Has that been your experience when you lived there then? because it certainly was not mine. Why would good Govt. supports impact on interpersonal relationships?? what is your evidence to support that?



Gee, people in supermarkets who want to just do their shopping and get home without wanting to be there to make friends... whoda thought? supermarket shopping is the same dull experience wherever you go. I'm there to shop, full stop. The local ICA shop where I lived had very polite staff and Swedish people are in general are polite and give people lots of personal space. As an introvert I liked that actually.

Terror of eye contact? way overstating the mark. People keep to themselves, that's all and expect you to do the same. If you had bothered to actually talk to any Swedes though you would find them engaging and warm.

It's true there is not the same casual friendly exchanges with strangers you find here, and I do like the warmth of Irish people, but there can be a flip side of intrusiveness and nosiness that I don't like.

The sitting in silence thing-it's called being comfortable with silence. Swedes unlike the Irish don't feel the need to fill every second with jabbering away, they prefer to have something concrete to talk about than just talk any old bollox just to fill the space. And they never talk over each other, they let you say whatever you want before they will respond, which I found refreshing and something I really miss here.

The nurses were just telling you what the truth was as they saw it. They don't sugar coat things there and you know exactly where you stand with them as a consequence.

I didn't find life in Sweden joyless in the least-I had a very rich experience there and made several life long friends. I loved the culture, Scandinavian design, respect for 'Naturen', a real work life balance and wonderful public services. I never felt isolated as I had a good working environment where I was respected and as I said I made good friends.
You only get out what you put in to living there.

I wonder what you call joyful? if it's the usual Irish things of going out and getting hammered and living for the weekends you can keep it.

I think there is more to life in Ireland then getting hammered. Can you not point out good things in Scandinavian culture without criticism of Ireland where plenty of people don't get hammered.

Greentopia

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I think there is more to life in Ireland then getting hammered. Can you not point out good things in Scandinavian culture without criticism of Ireland where plenty of people don't get hammered.

Good, pity more people don't think like you, the alcoholism rate and resultant violence, family, health and other problems would be far lower.

I was responding to unfair and ridiculous assertions about Sweden and sorry if you don't like my criticism of this country. I'm born and raised in Ireland so naturally I compare the two countries I've lived in. There are some things I like about this country or else I wouldn't be here.

Seems like people who have a grudge against the Scandi countries either do so out of ignorance having never lived there or been misinformed about them, or they are doing so from ideological opposition to the Scandinavian social model.

Greentopia

pajor wrote: »

Transport - if you live in Amsterdam it's happy days. But like in Ireland if you live in a more rural area (as rural as you can get here) public transport is rubbish. I started a new job a few weeks back. 30-35 mins in the car or 3 buses taking 1hr 20. I pay €600/year to tax a 1.4L Golf and €1.46/L to put petrol in it.

I wondered about that when I was there a few months ago-Amsterdam.
On the upside-you have decent cycle paths everywhere, even alongside some motorways

I don't think any country can have public transport that will service everywhere in the most remote rural areas, it just wouldn't be economically viable to operate.

Just out of curiosity and you don't mind me asking-why did you not move somewhere closer to work?

fits

I thought of some more. In Finland the cost of food is super high (especially where i was, long transport distances). And there isnt really a dining out culture. I actually spent way less money though due to not needing a car. I cycled everywhere in temps down to -25. The footpaths and cyclepaths are shared and its not an issue. Pedestrians stay to side and cyclists dont feel the need to bomb around. Life feels simpler there. Better work life balance for sure. Most people just go to cottages for their long summer holidays. The summers are lovely actually and so is proper winter. Its the dark months of october,november and april that are the worst.

Ralf and Florian

Greentopia wrote: »

Good, pity more people don't think like you, the alcoholism rate and resultant violence, family, health and other problems would be far lower.

I was responding to unfair and ridiculous assertions about Sweden and sorry if you don't like my criticism of this country. I'm born and raised in Ireland so naturally I compare the two countries I've lived in. There are some things I like about this country or else I wouldn't be here.

Seems like people who have a grudge against the Scandi countries either do so out of ignorance having never lived there or been misinformed about them, or they are doing so from ideological opposition to the Scandinavian social model.

I hate that word. It sounds like the name of a dog or something. Whats wrong with Nordic if you think is Scandinavian too much bother to type?

Winterlong

I spent time in sweden a few years ago. It's not that great to be honest. Very expensive.
The food is too meaty for my liking.

And then there is their liking for snus. WTF is going on with that?

Greentopia

Ralf and Florian wrote: »

I hate that word. It sounds like the name of a dog or something. Whats wrong with Nordic if you think is Scandinavian too much bother to type?

Nordic is not interchangeable with Scandinavian. I meant Scandinavian but was in hurry typing. God ya have little to complain about :rolleyes:

Mantis Toboggan

iDave wrote: »

Type gender equal snow plows into google and you'll see how mad Sweden has become.

Unfortunately Ireland is slowly moving that way each year.

The PC brigade has been growing steadily here year on year.

Annasopra

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

Nothing wrong with high taxes if you get something in return.

Agreed. I would definitely pay their tax rates if
A) I got their level of public services
Wage rates were the same

PhoenixParker

Greentopia wrote: »

Has that been your experience when you lived there then? because it certainly was not mine. Why would good Govt. supports impact on interpersonal relationships?? what is your evidence to support that?

My husbands. He lived there for 25 years from the age of 10.

The supermarket and general keep to themselves ness is a cultural thing. I know many people who like you prefer it to Irelands superficial friendliness and that's fair enough but to some of us it's a distinct disadvantage to a location, which after all is what the thread is about.

Sharing a casual smile, a joke, laughing around a table of friends and family for me that's the start of joyfulness, nothing to do with getting hammered. Maybe it's that I'm older but Ireland feels like it's moved a lot away from the focus on alcohol in the last number of years. Scandinavia is no saint when it comes to alcohol themselves.

Greentopia

fits wrote: »

I thought of some more. In Finland the cost of food is super high (especially where i was, long transport distances). And there isnt really a dining out culture.

Yes that was one of the "bad aspects" if you can call it so, of Sweden too. Not a huge difference though in fairness, mostly on imported food. Swedish brands were more reasonable generally I found.

Surely there are plenty of nice restaurants in the towns and cities there no? even if the locals didn't avail of them much?

fits wrote: »

I actually spent way less money though due to not needing a car. I cycled everywhere in temps down to -25. The footpaths and cyclepaths are shared and its not an issue. Pedestrians stay to side and cyclists dont feel the need to bomb around. Life feels simpler there. Better work life balance for sure. Most people just go to cottages for their long summer holidays. The summers are lovely actually and so is proper winter. Its the dark months of october,november and april that are the worst.

All the same positives I found in Gothenburg. Loved the fact I didn't have to own a car there. In Gothenburg most cycle paths are separated from the road by curbs or buffer zones so it felt really safe to ride my bike there, even in the two way cycle paths.

I read a figure recently that only 14% of the citizens of Copenhagen own a car, such is the public transport system and the fact that cycling facilities are so well developed that cars are simply deemed not necessary to get around.

"Life feels simpler there"-that was exactly my feelings when I lived in Sweden. Simpler and calmer.

Having all your basic needs met even if you are on a comparatively low salary and knowing you can change careers and be supported well doing so by the State is a comforting feeling. Or you know the option is there to go back to college or University to change careers because it's affordable; and not having to worry if you can pay your bills makes life a lot easier.

Also you know that even if you lost your job the social welfare system would look after you until you found another one. You would never be homeless unless you became a complete drug or alcohol addict who never paid their rent for example, and even then you would be given help to get back on your feet as they are view them as people who have illnesses that should be treated, not criminals to be locked away.

A negative aspect I did find was the discrimination in the labour market against anyone whose surname wasn't ethnically Swedish-that is to say those who are from an African or Middle Eastern origin in particular. Irish, English or any other Anglo names are not a problem as we're seen as 'cool' or sufficiently similar to them culturally and in skin colour and religion.

But then they wonder why they end up with disenfranchised people in some immigrant suburbs who are angry with the way they are treated and the disproportionally high unemployment and incarceration rates among these populations? good integration of non-native populations still has a long way to go in Sweden.

Greentopia

Winterlong wrote: »

I spent time in sweden a few years ago. It's not that great to be honest. Very expensive.
The food is too meaty for my liking.

Only expensive in some aspects. Food is dear alright but good quality. Clothing is reasonable and rents, healthcare and childcare far less expensive than here. Like by miles.

I don't eat meat and it's no problem now to find lots of non-meat options there. There are loads of vegan options in all the supermarkets and vegan restaurants in all the cities anyway.

Winterlong wrote: »

then there is their liking for snus. WTF is going on with that?

Agree with you there, rotten stuff.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

iDave wrote: »

Type gender equal snow plows into google and you'll see how mad Sweden has become.

That's real lunatic taking over the asylum sh1te.

GreenFolder2

I think there's a lot of stereotyping and grass is always greener stuff going on here.

I've lived in both and also in the USA.

Ireland's actually far more similar to Scandinavia than we think when you compare it with parts of the US. We've an expectation of quality public services, even if they're not always delivered. I genuinely don't find Irish people are that hostile to paying tax either. A lot of Americans I know have very extreme views that there simply shouldn't be any safety net and that if you can't generate income you shouldn't be helped at all.

I also found the Irish (while later to the party) are much like the Nordic neighbours in being largely post-religious where religion is more of a thing in the cultural backdrop. I find a higher % of Americans are very overly religious and it's a big part of political life. I was actually yelled at by a colleague when I said I didn't believe in God and likely actually overlooked for promotion in the USA where as I think in Ireland or anywhere in northern Europe that wouldn't be any issue. That's despite the history of legally established state churches in Nordic countries and quasi established churches here in Ireland. American politics and contemporary culture just seems to have a big chunk of extreme religious influences.

One thing to bear in mind is that the Nordic climate (except maybe Denmark) requires huge degrees of social cooperation and organisation to survive. I think that's largely where the systems and very highly organised vibe comes from. Bad planning or disorganisation in many parts of Norway, Sweden, Finland and Iceland would result in death due to the extreme winters where in Ireland it's likely to result in being a bit wet.

The Netherlands also has a touch of that because they live in a country that's only possible because of extreme engineering to keep the sea at bay. If they don't organise well, they're underwater.

Ireland to me is very very like France, Belgium, the uk etc ... Organised but not quite as extremely so as those countries.

As places to live, I would feel quite safe and relaxed in any of them (the uk increasingly less so, but I think that's just a temporary dose of Toryitis that will pass with time).

lawred2

Ferrari3600 wrote: »

That is not necessarily a negative thing.

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/worlds-happiest-countries-take-most-antidepressants

Nah. Much healthier to hide it and pretend all is well.

Greentopia

PhoenixParker wrote: »

My husbands.

More than one? sorry... :pac:

PhoenixParker wrote: »

He lived there for 25 years from the age of 10.

The supermarket and general keep to themselves ness is a cultural thing. I know many people who like you prefer it to Irelands superficial friendliness and that's fair enough but to some of us it's a distinct disadvantage to a location, which after all is what the thread is about.

Yep fair enough, and I don't think it's always superficial here. Most Irish people who are friendly are genuinely so in my experience. It can be a lovely trait even for an introvert like me, so long as it doesn't doesn't cross over into intrusive behaviour.

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Sharing a casual smile, a joke, laughing around a table of friends and family for me that's the start of joyfulness, nothing to do with getting hammered. Maybe it's that I'm older but Ireland feels like it's moved a lot away from the focus on alcohol in the last number of years. Scandinavia is no saint when it comes to alcohol themselves.

Yes there is an ease of communication with others here that is nice generally. But quite honestly I'm also older and have travelled a fair bit and I've not found that anywhere else either so I don't Sweden is so different to Germany or France or most other European countries I can think of in people being more reserved with strangers than here.

I think if you have friends and family around you anywhere will feel more at home. I didn't have family in Sweden but I had close friends there and they were/are good and kind people.

No indeed Scandinavia is no saint with alcohol but at least it's more reigned in and much more tightly regulated than here. They have done a lot to discourage excessive alcohol consumption-very high taxes and alcohol cost in pubs, the restriction on the availability of it to the State Systembolaget monopoly only, laws prohibiting discounts on alcohol and so on help curb their drinking habits.

And their Lutheran values of course that means it's not acceptable to be seen drunk in public during the week and the temperance movement that was strong there means there is not the same view of alcohol there as we have here. Yes they do go out and get wasted, but it's kept to the weekend only or holidays like Midsommer, and Swedes don't get violent and cause the kind of mayhem we often see here on the streets.

I agree there seems to be somewhat less emphasis on alcohol as being the only way to have a good time here, but I was in Waterford recently at around 2 am on a weekend and it was horrible.
Trying to avoid walking on puke, people walking in front of cars drunk, young girls lying down on the footpaths outside night clubs not being able to stand up they were so drunk shoes off in mini skirts oblivious to the freezing cold weather or anything else around them, doormen on the local Spar because it was close to a nightclub to stop drunks coming in and lads hanging around looking for trouble.

We have a long way to go before we have a mature and sensible drinking culture in this country.

GreenFolder2

The Icelanders have no cop on about drinking either - Reykjavik is full of people falling out of bars like Ireland has and the Finns have a huge problem with alcoholism, where it's gotten out of hand. It's a little more like a Russian style hard drinking culture but it's tempered by high prices and lots of control of supply.

Greentopia

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

That's real lunatic taking over the asylum sh1te.

Makes for a nice headline for the alt-right and feminist haters to pounce on but unfortunately for them it's not true. http://www.thelocal.se/20161112/stockholm-transport-heads-defends-gender-equal-snow-clearing

“Gender equal snow-cleaning is not to blame here,” Daniel Helldén, the city’s Green Party transport head told the Expressen newspaper, stressing that the policy, which prioritises cleaning pavements and cycle lanes over roads, did not even appear to have even been followed.

And there is a reason behind it:

Stockholm’s municipal government, a coalition of the Social Democrats and the Green Party, brought in gender equal snow cleaning last year, pledging to make moving around the city on icy winter days just as safe for women as it is for men.

Don't see what's wrong with measures to do that. Some people are just looking for things to find fault with more progressive countries than the ones they live in.

the evasion_kid

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

The Icelanders have no cop on about drinking either - Reykjavik is full of people falling out of bars like Ireland has and the Finns have a huge problem with alcoholism, where it's gotten out of hand. It's a little more like a Russian style hard drinking culture but it's tempered by high prices and lots of control of supply.

The Finnish government used money from alcohol taxes to research and develop a groundbreaking treatment for alcoholism...the Sinclair method

pajor

Greentopia wrote: »

Just out of curiosity and you don't mind me asking-why did you not move somewhere closer to work?

I don't as I live my with Dutch OH and we live near the town she grew up in, where her family still live. We used to live in a house which was 5 mins away from her work by bike. Our landlords gave us the boot though, as they sold their own house and wanted to live in the house we were in. So we had to move a bit further away. We can't/couldn't afford renting in that town. So now she's 10 mins in the car from her work and I'm 35 from mine.

I don't mind that distance at all though. In my office, except for the people who live in that town, I probably have one of the shortest commutes.

ChikiChiki

NIMAN wrote: »

We are constantly told how great their health system, their education system and their political systems are, but it can't all be great, can it?

Do they look at any other country and think "I wish I lived there?", or "why can't we do it like that here in Sweden?".

I'll start.

1) I know that they have higher taxes than most, which of course wouldn't go down too well in most places.

2) Denmark is among one of the highest users of anti-depressants per capita

On point 2, is that possible why they have been ranked as the happiest country in the world? Everyone is out of their bracket on happy pills. Just a thought.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/denmark-worlds-happiest-country-2016-3

Greentopia

pajor wrote: »

I don't as I live my with Dutch OH and we live near the town she grew up in, where her family still live. We used to live in a house which was 5 mins away from her work by bike. Our landlords gave us the boot though, as they sold their own house and wanted to live in the house we were in. So we had to move a bit further away. We can't/couldn't afford renting in that town. So now she's 10 mins in the car from her work and I'm 35 from mine.

I don't mind that distance at all though. In my office, except for the people who live in that town, I probably have one of the shortest commutes.

I see, thank's for the reply.

milehip

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante.


This ,especially number 11,gives me the creeps.

Greentopia

NIMAN wrote: »

We are constantly told how great their health system, their education system and their political systems are, but it can't all be great, can it?

Do they look at any other country and think "I wish I lived there?", or "why can't we do it like that here in Sweden?".

Realised now I never replied to this...

Yes they do move to other countries of course for various reasons as people in all countries do. Swedes love London for example and many young Swedes will move there for a new life experience or for career opportunities, especially in areas like design, fashion, and IT. All areas they excel in as a country.

Many if not most will end up coming back to Sweden though after a few years in a rat race like London. Especially when they want to start families. Back to the safety and security, gentler pace of life, better public services, and higher quality of living in many regards that Sweden affords.

They don't tend to take a "why can't we do it like that here in Sweden' approach simply because they usually believe Sweden does things better than any other country!

I lost count of the number of times I used to read "vi är bäst i världen, i... -'we are the best in the world in'... fili in the blank, that I would see in a Swedish newspapers. But it was just stating factually areas they were actually the best, it was based on fact not hyperbole or empty fanatical patriotism.

They are individually very patriotic, but in a quiet way. They don't shout about it like the Americans do, but there is the feeling that is bred into them from a young age that they do things best and the Swedish model is the best, and if only every country was like Sweden the world would be much better.


Ok they know for example Finland has a better ranked education system and the problems in the Swedish one are a cause of much concern and debate, but Swedes in my experience have a much higher level of trust in their politicians to address any problems than we have for example. Yes you will hear criticism there too but it tends to be less vociferously voiced. They are antithetical to confrontation, very consensus driven and they like to approach problems in a very pragmatic way without formality or fanfare.

I liked the way they usually got the important stuff done and how society is not just set up to favour the better off. It's a more equal country than pretty much any other I can think of, and in my experience there that makes for a happier society and greater general levels of satisfaction with how people feel about their lives.

Wheeliebin30

It's amazing. For all the praise Sweden gets while Ireland constantly gets bashed here Sweden have 34,000 homeless people.

Yes 34,000 compared to 5,000 in Ireland.

People really think Ireland is the only country who faces these problems and it's all the government's fault.


There are approximately 34.000 people in Sweden without a home and municipalities struggle to keep people off the street. LU Open together with School of Social, Serendipity innovation and Forward Tech are now starting a pre-study to address this challenge.




The Social Innovation platform at LU Open was granted funding from Vinnova for a pre-study on how to eradicate homeslessness in Sweden.

There are approximately 34.000 people in Sweden without a home. For years Swedish municipalities have struggled with getting people off the street by a so-called step-by-step practice where the homeless had to adhere to different demands before a home was made available. However research from School of Social Work has proven that by changing the practice and giving the homeless a house first has a much higher success rate. Thus pilot studies run in Helsingborg and Stockholm shows that through this model 80% of the homeless stay in their home.

Wheeliebin30

Greentopia wrote: »

Realised now I never replied to this...

Yes they do move to other countries of course for various reasons as people in all countries do. Swedes love London for example and many young Swedes will move there for a new life experience or for career opportunities, especially in areas like design, fashion, and IT. All areas they excel in as a country.

Many if not most will end up coming back to Sweden though after a few years in a rat race like London. Especially when they want to start families. Back to the safety and security, gentler pace of life, better public services, and higher quality of living in many regards that Sweden affords.

They don't tend to take a "why can't we do it like that here in Sweden' approach simply because they usually believe Sweden does things better than any other country!

I lost count of the number of times I used to read "vi är bäst i världen, i... -'we are the best in the world in'... fili in the blank, that I would see in a Swedish newspapers. But it was just stating factually areas they were actually the best, it was based on fact not hyperbole or empty fanatical patriotism.

They are individually very patriotic, but in a quiet way. They don't shout about it like the Americans do, but there is the feeling that is bred into them from a young age that they do things best and the Swedish model is the best, and if only every country was like Sweden the world would be much better.


Ok they know for example Finland has a better ranked education system and the problems in the Swedish one are a cause of much concern and debate, but Swedes in my experience have a much higher level of trust in their politicians to address any problems than we have for example. Yes you will hear criticism there too but it tends to be less vociferously voiced. They are antithetical to confrontation, very consensus driven and they like to approach problems in a very pragmatic way without formality or fanfare.

I liked the way they usually got the important stuff done and how society is not just set up to favour the better off. It's a more equal country than pretty much any other I can think of, and in my experience there that makes for a happier society and greater general levels of satisfaction with how people feel about their lives.

With 34,000 homeless people you think it's a more equal society?