Elderly pension abused?

ukonline

Hi there,

Apologies if this is in the wrong section. It's a moral and legal issue.

I would be very appreciative of any advice.

Having a problem with my mother's state pension possibly being abused by a couple of her children. One living with her and the other abroad. I live the other side of town to my mother.

My mother is elderly with a long term illness and has problems with mobility. She's not able to easily go outside the house anymore.

I've had access to my mother's bank statements for the whole of 2016 and instead of having thousand's, there is practically zero money in her account. I took the paper statements from her while she was pouring over them, and she didn't put up much of a fight.

She assures me, she has not stashed her money away in another account, and has only a few hundred squirrelled away in her bedroom.

Informed two of my other siblings whom I trust, (there are five children), and they're apparently not happy about it either.

Said to my mother that I suspect her daughter, who is living with her, is "fleecing her", to which she replied, "Of course she is".

Have lost count of the number of holidays her daughter has taken in the last few years, maybe 5 or 6 and a longer sojourn of a few months abroad. Thought she was borrowing from loan shark, or credit union, but probably getting funded by the 'bank of Mum'. Had no access to my mother's bank details before, but was reasonably certain my mother was paying for most of this.

After further discussion and asking her about transactions from her account, she admitted money going to her son, who is abroad and long term unemployed.

As yet unknown to the borrowing siblings, I have arranged a meeting with her bank to discuss that we now open a 2nd account for her. The 2nd account to be a joint account in my and my mother's names. Suggested that I will control all her finances, bills, etc., from my computer. She's agreeable to that and I have no history of taking advantage of her. My other 'non borrowing' siblings are agreeable about the arrangement also.

With the joint account presumably my mother can't secretly, (out of fear/shame), lend money without myself and the other trusted family members knowing - I would consult with them. And her daughter, who frequently 'needs' my mother's debit card to 'buy food, pay bills', etc, will only be able to withdraw enough to buy food and small sundries for her mother, not herself, because I will make sure there is only enough money in that primary account for those things.

All requests for additional funds from her daughter/son abroad will now have to be agreed with me first, which I will put to the other's for a fair decision.

(We are, of course, considering not giving her my mother's card ever again, as a future option if need be should any difficulties arise).

My mother is unlikely to throw her out.

I'm assuming this is going to be a "big problem" for the two borrowing from her, as it would be difficult for them to continue taking/borrowing with this new arrangement. "It's her money!", "I need to pay her bills", "You've no right to control her money!", "If she wants to give/gift her money it's her decision", "We NEED the money", etc.

If the rest of the 'trusted' family members feel my mother is not happy to give her money away, then we would be able to have a say.

Question is, what right do they have to borrow from her without any way of paying back, or taking the money as a 'gift'. Neither have job prospects, life plan, etc. Both long term unemployed.

Daughter living with her rent free. Bills mostly paid by my mother. Daughter is getting full jobseekers allowance, and should be able to take care of herself out of that.

Do they have any legal right to her money if we refuse?

They, in our opinions, are taking advantage of her 'can't say no' type of personality, and being elderly and not in the best of health, I don't imagine she'd have the strength to say 'no'.

Both of them, which may not be relevant, but just in case you pity them, are not what I would call 'decent' people anyway. Both well known by other family members as selfish and exploitative, bullying, etc.

I was thinking that any requests for money from her should be considered by the remaining trustworthy members of the family, rather than me having full and final say if my mother agrees to loan/give out her money. In other words, my name on the joint account would represent, in my mind, the names of the remaining 3 siblings.

Not really interested in hurting anyone, more interested in protecting my mother's money so she can have peace of mind and be able to pay for a rainy day, or something nice for herself. (House needs a few small repairs, new garage roof, etc.)

I have no intention of using her money for myself.

My mother owns her house, so no rent/mortgage to pay, just utility bills and food for herself.

I will try to glean from my mother, of course, how much money she is happy to give away and how much she would like to save. She is very weak willed, and just want's peace and I can't help feeling that she is unhappy to be giving her pension away, and is too ashamed/afraid to say 'no'.

Any advice, warnings from experience, etc. would be greatly appreciated.

:mad:

Little CuChulainn

Sounds like you are tired of your mother supporting your less fortunate siblings and wasting your inheritance. I'm just playing devils advocate. But in all honesty, in the absence of any mental illness or intimidation why is it any of your business how much money she gives them? Maybe she likes having your sister living with her and worries that she will move out if she doesn't give her money when she needs it. The best thing to do would be have a frank conversation with your mother and find out exactly how she feels and what she wants. Also, I think this would be more suited to the personal issues forum. Your legal options to remedy this situation are limited and would require a solicitor. I don't think there is much more legal advice to give.

Thoie

Looks like it might be more of a Personal Issue rather than Legal. If your mother is that elderly, the family as a whole may want to look into setting up an enduring power of attorney, to help forestall any future problems.

In terms of the moral aspect, there is a balance between having your sister taking advantage of your mother, and also recognising that your sister seems to be acting as a carer for her. Your mother may feel that she owes your sister for the help she gives her (even just having someone around the house). Your mother may also feel that it's worth a few bob to keep your brother abroad off the streets.

To be honest, it comes across as all the children bullying the mother in one way or another. I think you really need to have a family discussion and find out what does your mother really want. If you think she'd be too timid to tell her children, maybe you could arrange for her to talk to a neutral third party on her own, and outline to him how she'd like her finances dealt with while she's alive, and what she wants done with her estate later.

ukonline

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Sounds like you are tired of your mother supporting your less fortunate siblings and wasting your inheritance. I'm just playing devils advocate. But in all honesty, in the absence of any mental illness or intimidation why is it any of your business how much money she gives them? Maybe she likes having your sister living with her and worries that she will move out if she doesn't give her money when she needs it. The best thing to do would be have a frank conversation with your mother and find out exactly how she feels and what she wants. Also, I think this would be more suited to the personal issues forum. Your legal options to remedy this situation are limited and would require a solicitor. I don't think there is much more legal advice to give.

Thanks. Taking her to bank soon and will let her explain to them what she wants. I'm not going to push her. Let her do most of the talking.

ukonline

Thoie wrote: »

Looks like it might be more of a Personal Issue rather than Legal. If your mother is that elderly, the family as a whole may want to look into setting up an enduring power of attorney, to help forestall any future problems.

In terms of the moral aspect, there is a balance between having your sister taking advantage of your mother, and also recognising that your sister seems to be acting as a carer for her. Your mother may feel that she owes your sister for the help she gives her (even just having someone around the house). Your mother may also feel that it's worth a few bob to keep your brother abroad off the streets.

To be honest, it comes across as all the children bullying the mother in one way or another. I think you really need to have a family discussion and find out what does your mother really want. If you think she'd be too timid to tell her children, maybe you could arrange for her to talk to a neutral third party on her own, and outline to him how she'd like her finances dealt with while she's alive, and what she wants done with her estate later.

Appreciated, thanks. Will consider all of the above.

whippet

I am in a different but similar situation with elderly parents.

One of my parents is suffering with dementia (progressively) and the other has some ill health .. but perfect mind!

I am one of five siblings and I know that we will run in to disagreements with regards to their long term care. One sibling in particular I feel will not act in the best interests of my parents; through naivety or pressure from their spouse. I have spoken to my other siblings and so far we have decided to look for enduring power of attorney over my mother (shared between me and my sister) .. this is to make sure we act somewhat like a committee for their interests.

We haven't engaged a solicitor just yet but from my limited knowledge it isn't a simple procedure and while my mother has the onset of dementia she really thinks she owns her own mind and I fear that she will resist any attempt to have someone else make decisions for her.

My only advise, and it isn't legal advise is, be prepare for resistance from everyone with your plans. It might be prudent to get another sibling on board with you so your other siblings don't come to the conclusion that you are doing it for selfish reasons etc ...

ukonline

whippet wrote: »

I am in a different but similar situation with elderly parents.

One of my parents is suffering with dementia (progressively) and the other has some ill health .. but perfect mind!

I am one of five siblings and I know that we will run in to disagreements with regards to their long term care. One sibling in particular I feel will not act in the best interests of my parents; through naivety or pressure from their spouse. I have spoken to my other siblings and so far we have decided to look for enduring power of attorney over my mother (shared between me and my sister) .. this is to make sure we act somewhat like a committee for their interests.

We haven't engaged a solicitor just yet but from my limited knowledge it isn't a simple procedure and while my mother has the onset of dementia she really thinks she owns her own mind and I fear that she will resist any attempt to have someone else make decisions for her.

My only advise, and it isn't legal advise is, be prepare for resistance from everyone with your plans. It might be prudent to get another sibling on board with you so your other siblings don't come to the conclusion that you are doing it for selfish reasons etc ...

Thanks for your reply, Whippet. Looks like I have some more thinking to do.

Thoie

ukonline wrote: »

Appreciated, thanks. Will consider all of the above.

One thing to note (and I only know this from anecdotes - I'm not a legal person) is that it seems enduring power of attorney gets madly complicated the second there's a diagnoses of dementia, or any indication of reduced mental capacity. From what I've heard, the person can end up being made a ward of court, which sounds like a bit more of a PITA. Enduring power of attorney is something you set up "now", but it only kicks in if mental capacity is reduced.

I'm (hopefully) nowhere near that stage yet, but it's something I'm considering doing soon, as it sounds like it's too late once the incapacity has started.

Glass fused light

ukonline wrote: »

I took the paper statements from her while she was pouring over them, and she didn't put up much of a fight.

With the joint account presumably my mother can't secretly, (out of fear/shame), lend money without myself and the other trusted family members knowing

She is an adult, who is making choices. She did not invite your opinion nor ask for your help. She did not ask for some of her children to discuss how she should manage her finances and as you had not previously inquired I assume that there was no reason to do so.

You think that she is weak willed so are you actually listening to what she wants or deciding you know best?

ukonline wrote: »

My mother is elderly with a long term illness and has problems with mobility. She's not able to easily go outside the house anymore.

Suggested that I will control all her finances, bills, etc., from my computer. 

 I live the other side of town to my mother.
Informed two of my other siblings whom I trust, (there are five children), and they're apparently not happy about it either.

Are you prepared to have your mother move in with you or will one of your other two siblings be offering to take on this responsibility?
What is the backup plan if your other sister moves out?
How about figuring out a non 'nuclear' starting point by working out what income and expenditure your mother has, and what spare cash is left over, discuss with your mother if your sister is actually going to contribute and at what level it should be. That way at least your sister may get a loan from 'her' housekeeping contribution.
then open the discussion with your sister and work from there.

ukonline wrote: »

Both of them, which may not be relevant, but just in case you pity them, are not what I would call 'decent' people anyway. Both well known by other family members as selfish and exploitative, bullying, etc.

And her daughter, who frequently 'needs' my mother's debit card to 'buy food, pay bills', etc, will only be able to withdraw enough to buy food and small sundries for her mother, not herself, because I will make sure there is only enough money in that primary account for those things.

Not really interested in hurting anyone, more interested in protecting my mother's money so she can have peace of mind

 She is very weak willed, and just want's peace and I can't help feeling that she is unhappy to be giving her pension away, and is too ashamed/afraid to say 'no'.

Any advice, warnings from experience, etc. would be greatly appreciated.

Your mother is satisfied and aware of the status quo. 
You are taking control of the money what about the rest?
How are you and your non-residential siblings going to manage her home life to give her piece of mind if you are putting her in the middle of a conflict between you and your (bullying) sister?

She appears to have enough funds to cover food and utilities and needs no essential repairs to the house, and I assume that her medical costs are also covered.  What dose she actually need to save for?

I am not suggesting that your should ignore a situation where your mother is being abused, but you need to look at the whole of her circumstances. What level of care can she provide for herself and what is provided by your sister.  

You don't appear to value the fact that your sister is in the house, but before you go making life changing choices for your mother, be sure that you are prepared to incorporate the outcome of these choices into your own life and are willing to change your lifestyle to accommodate your mothers future needs.

The big question is what is the long term plan?
If necessary which of you or your other two siblings will be taking on the non-financial day to day responsibility for your mother?

peril 1

How can I go about getting my Mam a ward of court. One of my Sisters moved into Mams house 14 years ago. I have no time for my Sister she hates me [as her boyfriend went to jail for raping her daughter, as she wanted the 3 girls to tell no one and the boyfriend would get a flat]
I got him arrested .Now she is very abusive I cannot see my Mam [only way I could see her was in a pub on a Saturday and the Sister would be down the other side of the pub] Then the sister along with another sister were going on Holidays I heard. After 2 days I found out my Mother had been left with an a lady who drinks heavy ,My youngest sister and I went down every day +evening. There were times the woman had no food, the evening my mam went home she ended up in. Hospital, Someone told me 1 day later I rushed over to the Hospital. She had taken ill all her legs were black.I stayed with her over nights[my niece and other sister took turns] MY sister came to visit mum she was drunk and very abusive towards me. Myself and my younger sister +my niece are not allowed to see Mam. My son askes when can I see Nanna. I don't want anything from my Mam only to see her and chat. Something happened last week my 2 sisters went out for the night. Where was my Mam? We tried the house the phone. I have been hit kicked by one of the Sisters and I am not giving up.[social worker in the Hospital ..no such person]

NUTLEY BOY

Seriously, and with full respect, it is solicitor time and the sooner the better before the situation goes beyond redemption..............

Thoie

peril 1 wrote: »

After 2 days I found out my Mother had been left with an a lady who drinks heavy ,My youngest sister and I went down every day +evening. There were times the woman had no food, the evening my mam went home she ended up in. Hospital, Someone told me 1 day later I rushed over to the Hospital. She had taken ill all her legs were black....


Something happened last week my 2 sisters went out for the night. Where was my Mam? We tried the house the phone.

As a first port of call, Age Action Ireland may be able to guide you in what to do. Being a ward of court may not help in this situation - it's usually designed to set up a committee to help manage your financial affairs if you're mentally incapacitated. If your mother is still mentally sound, then it may not be useful. You will need a solicitor to take you through the Ward of Court process.

The HSE has a dedicated elder abuse service that you can notify as well. Personally I'd talk to Age Action first to get their opinion, before starting the "official" process, but that's up to you.

Johnboy1951

ukonline, the best you could do for your mother would be to arrange for her to engage a solicitor.
You could 'prime' the solicitor about your concerns, but thereafter leave it to the solicitor on a one to one basis with your mother.

She should be the one to decide without pressure from you or anyone else.

peril 1

My Mam is 89 years of age ,All her family should be able to see her, My Mam is suffering from slight dementia.
I want all her grandchildren and Children be able to see her. I would go for Ward Of Court . I just asked the Question: how to do this
I suppose through a Solicitor .I don't want anything off my Mam just to be able to visit and have a Chat.

ukonline

Just an update.

My mum has opened a savings account and is now putting something away each week and is not going to be so trusting with her card in future.

A solicitor was seen a couple of years ago to discuss power of attorney, but the fee was unaffordable at the time. She does not have that kind of money, yet.

Will let her save some and discuss the matter later with her.

Thanks!