Mike Pence Not Welcome in Sligo

JupiterKid

Sligo County Council have reversed their initial plan to invite the US Vice-President Elect, Mike Pence, to the county as his great grandfather is from Tubercurry. Apparently some LGBT residents of Sligo were unhappy that the homophobic Indiana Governor, who opposes gay rights and has stated his support of electro-shock "conversion therapy" for gay men had been invited to visit Sligo.

Do you think the decision to not now invite Pence was right? Does it show Sligo's solidarity with its LGBT residents or were they just bowing to pressure? We welcomed Obama with open arms to Ireland a few years back, but then Obama is a socially progressive President.

Or should Pence be invited despite his homophobic views? Should we extend a welcome to public figures we personally disagree with?

Thoughts?

FortySeven

Just because a minority are offended we should dumb down the rest of the population by censoring who or what they can see or hear?

LGBT need to realise that if they want to demand freedom of expression them it is a two way street. They might not want to negotiate the traffic but that is what adults have to do.

I'm sick of minorities demanding **** under a guise of fear or offence.

Sligo should count itself lucky to have such a powerful visitor. It's hardly a bustling metropolis of any significance.

Clampdown

I think it's great they reversed this decision. I was surprised they did considering the way we crawled Obama's hole. And considering that many of his anti-gay, anti pro-choice policies are in line with Catholicism. But the fact they listened and reversed it is a good sign IMO, even five years ago, before the marriage equality vote, they probably wouldn't have considered reversing this decision based on his views on gay people.

Most people here are pretty horrified at Trump's victory and many people in America are still protesting it. If we disagree with the racism, sexism and homophobia of Trump's campaign we should stick to our guns and not start licking arse now that they got into the White House, it's so cringey and embarrassing.

tomwaterford

Why would ireland welcome someone who opposes equal rights

Why would anyone support giving a voice/stage to this nonsense.....ECT to fix homosexuality :rolleyes:.....it's the type of bullsht you'd expect out of Saudi Arabia



Sligo did right here.....just because your mildly connected to someone who's powerful is no reason to compromise on ethical grounds to try make a few pounds for yourself

DivingDuck

His views are reprehensible— however, he's now an (incoming) elected representative of his country. We have to respect that. What we don't have to do is endorse it.

Surely a balance can be struck between respecting the democratic process by allowing the statesmen of other countries to come here on official business and be treated with decency, and signing off on the policies we disagree with by inviting them here on unnecessary personal errands?

It's the same as being courteous to someone you don't like in work without inviting them to your birthday party at your house. Professional politeness is necessary, personal coziness is not.

Clampdown

FortySeven wrote: »

Just because a minority are offended we should dumb down the rest of the population by censoring who or what they can see or hear?

LGBT need to realise that if they want to demand freedom of expression them it is a two way street. They might not want to negotiate the traffic but that is what adults have to do.

I'm sick of minorities demanding **** under a guise of fear or offence.

Sligo should count itself lucky to have such a powerful visitor. It's hardly a bustling metropolis of any significance.

He basically thinks homosexuals are subhuman, and not deserving of equal rights. This opinion was soundly rejected by the MAJORITY of people in this country in the marriage equality vote. Gays may be in the minority, but the majority support them being considered equal in society and that attitudes that consider them as less than equal unacceptable. Should we invite racists and anti semites too?

I think considering him a 'powerful' visitor is a bit OTT. It would do very little for the town, which for it's size, has a pretty strong LGBTQ group who have worked hard to gain acceptance and have their own events in town. They might be in the minority but most people in town probably have at least one friend in that group, and IMO, they are more important than Mike Pence, who probably couldn't even point out Sligo on a map of Ireland.

Peregrinus

FortySeven wrote: »

Just because a minority are offended we should dumb down the rest of the population by censoring who or what they can see or hear?

LGBT need to realise that if they want to demand freedom of expression them it is a two way street. They might not want to negotiate the traffic but that is what adults have to do.

Ironic that you should say that, really, when in your first paragraph you equate not extending an invitation to someone with "censoring" them.

Mr. Pence's right to free speech may entitle him to say whatever he likes, should he happen to be in Sligo. It does not entitle him to an official invitation to visit Sligo. Deciding not to invite him is not "censoring" him.

I'm sick of these over-entitled princesses who think that any failure by anyone else to welcome views they disagee with is "censorship".

Donald Trump

JupiterKid wrote: »

Sligo County Council have reversed their initial plan to invite the US Vice-President Elect, Mike Pence, to the county as his great grandfather is from Tubercurry. Apparently some LGBT residents of Sligo were unhappy that the homophobic Indiana Governor, who opposes gay rights and has stated his support of electro-shock "conversion therapy" for gay men had been invited to visit Sligo.

Do you think the decision to not now invite Pence was right? Does it show Sligo's solidarity with its LGBT residents or were they just bowing to pressure? We welcomed Obama with open arms to Ireland a few years back, but then Obama is a socially progressive President.

Or should Pence be invited despite his homophobic views? Should we extend a welcome to public figures we personally disagree with?

Thoughts?

Sligo?
I just had an oul' chat with Mickey-P there about it and we quickly came to the consensus decision that less of a shite could not be given.

Peregrinus

FortySeven wrote: »

Sligo should count itself lucky to have such a powerful visitor. It's hardly a bustling metropolis of any significance.

I'm not sure that Vice-Presidents are quite as powerful as you seem to think.

Clampdown

Donald Trump wrote: »

Sligo?
I just had an oul' chat with Mickey-P there about it and we quickly came to the consensus decision that less of a shite could not be given.

Yeah, don't you have your hands full with building a wall and getting the majority of the population which did not vote for you to accept that they now have a sociopathic sexual predator as their leader?

Besides, with how hard Sligo was hit by the recession, they hardly need the influence of a serial bankruptcy filer, a man who managed to even run a casino into the ground, despite it being the one business model where the rules are set up to guarantee a profit is made.

Stay in your lane Trump. We're trying to take forward steps in this country, not backwards ones. Even in small towns like Sligo.

Special Circumstances

Clampdown wrote: »

Yeah, don't you have your hands full with building a wall and getting the majority of the population which did not vote for you to accept that they now have a sociopathic sexual predator as their leader?

Besides, with how hard Sligo was hit by the recession, they hardly need the influence of a serial bankruptcy filer, a man who managed to even run a casino into the ground, despite it being the one business model where the rules are set up to guarantee a profit is made.

Stay in your lane Trump. We're trying to take forward steps in this country, not backwards ones. Even in small towns like Sligo.

I was a little disappointed that the Irish Times had wound down their marathon "crywank against democracy" but at least there's still afterhours for a laugh.

AnthonyCny

Just wondering if the Pope came to Ireland would he not be welcome in sligo?

CINCLANTFLT

LBGT Bigots?

jimgoose

They should invite Pence, and then allow anyone who disagrees to run around the place upending wheelie-bins and looting phone shops while screaming "Stop triggering meeee!!!" for that night like overgrown five-year-olds. That way, everyone wins. :cool:

CINCLANTFLT

jimgoose wrote: »

They should invite Pence, and then allow anyone who disagrees to run around the place upending wheelie-bins and looting phone shops while screaming "Stop triggering meeee!!!" for that night like overgrown five-year-olds. That way, everyone wins. :cool:

Ah now, you've triggered me now... this was my safe space!

GreenFolder2

It's not "fear of offence" in this case.
Have you ever seen what gay conversion therapy involves!!?

You might as well have left handedness conversion therapy and worse.

This guy is supporting unscientific "therapies" that in plenty of cases destroy people's lives and even can lead to suicide.

That's not just a minority being a bit offended - it's a minority trying to flee what amounts to torture.

If Ireland wants to whore itself out go these guys for the sake of ensuring investment, then basically we have no moral fibre whatsoever anymore.

FortySeven

FortySeven wrote: »

Just because a minority are offended we should dumb down the rest of the population by censoring who or what they can see or hear?

How did you establish it is the "minority" offended by his views?

How is not inviting someone "censoring" anything - let alone what people can see and hear?

How does not inviting a speaker on any topic "dumb down" anybody?

jimgoose

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

It's not "fear of offence" in this case.
Have you ever seen what gay conversion therapy involves!!?...

I couldn't agree more. Therefore instead of howling "Hate Speech!!" and all the usual nonsense, let him come and then hold him up to half of Western Europe as the medically misinformed muppet that he is.

GreenFolder2

jimgoose wrote: »

I couldn't agree more. Therefore instead of howling "Hate Speech!!" and all the usual nonsense, let him come and then hold him up to half of Western Europe as the medically misinformed muppet that he is.

He won't be held up though.
If he comes over I guarantee you it would be an embarrassing case of unquestioning, sycophantic red carpet treatment because of his position and nothing else.

I bet you'll have some nonsense about him finding his roofs and using Ireland as a big old poster opportunity to ensure he looks like a man of the Irish community and so on.

A part of the Irish community is gay and I'm not really seeing why that integral part of who we are shouldn't be stood up for.

If he took a similar attitude to let's say Irish people generally, and wanted us say converted through bogus psychotherapy into "proper people" I'm sure he'd be most unwelcome.

I don't see much difference. You don't invite someone like that because if you do, you're basically giving them a signal that their position is being supported and vindicated.

Rainman16

I thought it was LGBTQ now? Right?

Anyway I don't think Mike Pence gives a sh1t about Sligo. He's got allot of work to do in Washington for the next few months.

If he does want to come, I believe he should be welcomed. We have invited far more deplorable people to this country. Catholic church leaders, who despise homosexuals and ran an international child sex ring.

Peregrinus

jimgoose wrote: »

I couldn't agree more. Therefore instead of howling "Hate Speech!!" and all the usual nonsense, let him come and then hold him up to half of Western Europe as the medically misinformed muppet that he is.

Nobody's stopping him coming, Jim. There's just a few entitled princesses on the right who feel that if he's not specially invited to come by the County Council, that's "censorship".

GreenFolder2

That's precisely my point - we have a long history of spineless sucking up to power and shoving our supposed values under the carpet while we ensure we cozy up to the man with the money or the influence.

We allowed crazy stuff to go on with the catholic church. I thought we had grown a backbone ...since those days when we were like the shy little nation that was always desperately seeking attention and approval from power ?!

There's no reason to endorse this man by inviting him anywhere. That's not censorship it's simply not inviting someome you don't like to an event which would make it look like Sligo endorsed his views ....

Incidentally, I never saw anyone rushing to invite Margaret Thatcher to Kerry despite her great grandmother coming from there ...

RobertKK

Barack Obama has given the go ahead that killed hundreds of children with his drone strikes.
In his first three days, a drone strike he agreed to killed 4 children and he had idiots waving American flags for him, and the liberal media falling over themselves in their hypocrisy.

There is a lot of double standards going on, some wrongs are fine, other wrongs are ignored.

GreenFolder2

No, we just named a motorway services station after him ; not really sure that's much of a complement lol

padd b1975

jimgoose wrote: »

I couldn't agree more. Therefore instead of howling "Hate Speech!!" and all the usual nonsense, let him come and then hold him up to half of Western Europe as the medically misinformed muppet that he is.

Yep.

It's classic virtue signalling.
Everyone gets to feel good about themselves and "on message".

MRnotlob606

I welcome that we decline him if wants to visit. Why should we accept some reactionary right wing nutjob. He is an embarrassment. He can come on his own accord, but nobody should make him feel welcome.

CINCLANTFLT

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

I welcome that we decline him if wants to visit. Why should we accept some reactionary right wing nutjob. He is an embarrassment. He can come on his own accord, but nobody should make him feel welcome.

Bigot

There are very important considerations coming up in relation to Irish migrants, the undocumented etc.

You'd think they could have used the chance of a USA Vice President elect returning to the place his ancestors left to remind him of that issue.

Manach

Given the Left's foaming rage at anyone who opposes their unique worldview of tolerance for all who agree with them. perhaps Mr Pence has better items in his agenda than visit there.

Special Circumstances

jimgoose wrote: »

They should invite Pence, and then allow anyone who disagrees to run around the place upending wheelie-bins and looting phone shops while screaming "Stop triggering meeee!!!" for that night like overgrown five-year-olds. That way, everyone wins. :cool:

Irish Times runs a special waterproof coversheet for a week before and after full of crywanky opinion pieces.

Allinall

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There are very important considerations coming up in relation to Irish migrants, the undocumented etc.

You'd think they could have used the chance of a USA Vice President elect returning to the place his ancestors left to remind him of that issue.

Na.

Getting offended outweighs pragmatism.

GreenFolder2

There's nothing "feel good" or "right on" about it. You don't throw your neighbours under a bus by inviting someome who hates them and has gone out of his way to damage people like them throughout his career as a legislator.

Ireland's not a homophobic country and has gone through a fairly profound rediscovery of its gay side and of actually accepting that being gay is fully part of Irish identity.

You either stand in solidarity with a significant part of the Irish population by not inviting him or if you do, realise that it is a massive slap in the face to a significant part or the population that has only just started to feel like it's accepted in recent years.

I think standing with our own community on this is a hell or a lot more important than indulging a divisive, right-wing political figure who is very unlikely to have Irish interests at heart anyway.

You're talking about a group that likely doesn't give a damn about anything Irish other than using us as an endorsement for his political career amongst blue collar Americans with vague notions of Irish links.

Also, if you want to look at this from a cold, hard marketing point of view : we are appealing to silicon valley, big pharma, new York based financial hubs and some of the most liberal parts of the united states, not to the backwaters that support gay conversion therapy!

I would run a mile from being anywhere near someone like this - you don't want to even be associated with this kind of thing - it is terrible for Ireland's reputation.

jimgoose

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Irish Times runs a special waterproof coversheet for a week before and after full of crywanky opinion pieces.

A quick sconce this morning reveals that many at IT Towers are still running around triggering like an M61A1 cannon. :pac:

padd b1975

Allinall wrote: »

Na.

Getting offended outweighs pragmatism.

How many gays have actually voiced their offence or are they too busy getting on with life to care?

Reads like the "offended on someone else's behalf" have taken control of this one unfortunately.

fizzypish

Deleted User wrote: »

There are very important considerations coming up in relation to Irish migrants, the undocumented etc.

You'd think they could have used the chance of a USA Vice President elect returning to the place his ancestors left to remind him of that issue.

Sligo, hot bed of activity. Never thought I'd say that.
This put a point into my mind. X amount of illegal Irish emigrants in the states that may be helped Vs Y amount of Irish LGBT that will be gravely insulted by an extension of the Irish government inviting this dude over.
If X > Y or X < Y, shouldn't the government look to help the majority before the minority? I don't think its possible to help everyone out in most circumstances and if you try no one gets helped. Anyway, just a rambling thought.

AnthonyCny

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

I welcome that we decline him if wants to visit. Why should we accept some reactionary right wing nutjob. He is an embarrassment. He can come on his own accord, but nobody should make him feel welcome.

Should we make the Pope feel welcome?

GreenFolder2

AnthonyCny wrote: »

Should we make the Pope feel welcome?

Probably should be a lot more questioning of him but, he's a religious leader and they almost always get handed exemptions on absolutely everything due to deference.

Extending that deference to political leaders is how you end up in situations like a certain Irish political decades ago sending telegrams to Germany with condolences on the death of Hitler.

You sometimes have to stand up for your values and not blindly respect the office holder just because of his/her title.

osarusan

I'd say Pence is reeling with shock.

Special Circumstances

AnthonyCny wrote: »

Should we make the Pope feel welcome?

I'd say Tim Cooke would be out too because of conditions in the Chinese subcons and the whole special tax deal malarkey?


Would the "Sligo against Trumpence" crew welcome a Jewish group as part of the protest, or would they be battered with palestinian flags?


This just keeps on giving.

GreenFolder2

I doubt it so somehow but I would still think it's better we don't volunteer to endorse him because someone is just trying to suck up to power.

I think in general we are better off leaving this administration to the Americans to deal with.

Last thing thing we need is Ireland being suddenly associated with the US alt-right because someone felt the need to indulge a right wing populist in the hopes he might have a few auld jobs.

Bear in mind these are anti-immigration, protectionists who are very, very unlikely to be on the same page as the companies we are seeing to attract investment from anyway.

It's not Pence who makes FDI decisions, it's boards of companies like Apple etc etc who are exceedingly unlikely to share his political views on social issues.

OldGoat

Missed opportunity for the community to debate a high profile opponent. Stopping him speaking is not winning, it's putting your fingers in your ears and singing "Lalalalalalalalal" hoping the bogeyman will go away.
Winning would be debating him and disproving his opinions with facts.

Special Circumstances

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

Bear in mind these are anti-immigration, protectionists who are very, very unlikely to be on the same page as the companies we are seeing to attract investment from anyway.

It's not Pence who makes FDI decisions, it's boards of companies like Apple etc etc who are exceedingly unlikely to share his political views on social issues.

But if we're going to get all righteous about it - do we even want the likes of Apple here? Or are chinese workers worth less than LGBTQ people in San Francisco? What would their relative worth be?

No point in being half assed about these things is there? Unless it is all just empty virtue signalling?

GreenFolder2

Difference is they're not policy makers, legislators or politicians.

Ireland has significant soft power when we endorse a US political figure. We are simply being used for an old rub of the shamrocks to boost his domestic ratings if we bring him over.

conorhal

Load of virtue signalling nonsense. Where were the perpetually outraged when we were lowering flags to half mast as a sign of respect for Saudi royals, you never see them when we're inviting Islamist extremists to this country to give speaches either, sure some people that advocate throwing gay people off rooftops are positively welcomed on to the stage by the kind of people you'd expect to be protesting them such as RBB.

Ultimately, who the hell in Sligo thought they were important enought to issuing invites to vice presidents? Have you not got a road to fix or something more important to be doing?

Riddle101

FortySeven wrote: »

Just because a minority are offended we should dumb down the rest of the population by censoring who or what they can see or hear?

LGBT need to realise that if they want to demand freedom of expression them it is a two way street. They might not want to negotiate the traffic but that is what adults have to do.

I'm sick of minorities demanding **** under a guise of fear or offence.

Sligo should count itself lucky to have such a powerful visitor. It's hardly a bustling metropolis of any significance.

Anyone who would support electro-shock therapy for homosexuals, and be in favor of reducing funds for HIV treatment in favor of conversion therapy, is not a supporter of freedom of expression anyway. The guy will likely try to suppress LGBT so I can't say I'm surprised that people over here would feel that way about him.

The King of Moo

I wish Stephen Fry had never made that inane video about being offended.
I'm so sick of alt-right goons crowing about people being offended as though any instance of such were simply an individual's caprice, an arbitrary choice to decide not to like something, and therefore demand that it be hidden from view.

But why shouldn't we consider offence? Of course people like to provide extreme examples to demonstrate why taking offence is ludicrous: Oh, someone wants someone to lose their job because of a joke or a t-shirt they wore, it's ridiculous, no-one cares about your feelings!

But what about a case like this, where someone thinks that simply for the preferences you inherently have, you're less than human, and one of the most fundamental aspects of yourself should be forcibly done away with in order to make you match that person's vision of the world?
Do you really think we shouldn't consider how someone feels in that regard?
Of course we should, because that's how civilisation works. We don't just act completely on instinct: we consider how our actions might affect people around us, and act accordingly. We may even have imagination enough to consider how we would feel were we the object and not the subject of our actions.
That's why it's not ok to verbally abuse people without provocation: it can anger and upset, and people with a basic level of empathy consider those to be bad things, and try to avoid causing people such suffering if it can be avoided and is not considered necessary. That's how we all get along.
If someone came up to you in the street or at work and told you that you were less than human and needed to be converted into a "normal" human, no-one would expect you to simply shrug that off and not be offended.

In this case, an organisation representing an area has decided not to invite someone with views he's made public which are deeply offensive to a section of the community who've made their feelings known. They've decided not to give this person a platform to avoid unnecessary suffering to people they represent. Mike Pence's not being denied his freedom of speech: he's simply not being offered one of the myriad possible platforms he can be offered, because people have identified his hateful speech for what it is and don't want to hear it.

There's an argument to be made for allowing people to express regressive, hate-based opinions in an environment where they can be argued against, like university debates.
But no-one's required to respect or provide a platform for views they don't like. If you're on the wrong side of history and want hate speech to be provided public platforms, then you're out of luck because even despite what happened in America last week, the world is changing and you're being left behind. Just don't go complaining like a precious little snowflake because people don't agree with your views and aren't interested in hearing them.

The King of Moo

OldGoat wrote: »

Missed opportunity for the community to debate a high profile opponent. Stopping him speaking is not winning, it's putting your fingers in your ears and singing "Lalalalalalalalal" hoping the bogeyman will go away.
Winning would be debating him and disproving his opinions with facts.

But what debate would there be? He'd come, make a speech or two, have a sip of Guinness, balance a sliotar on a hurley and be on his way. He's not being invited to the Trinity Philisophical Society to debate Panti Bliss.
I get the idea that we should allow views to be aired and thus criticised, but in this case no-one would have the same platform he would. And this is a case of Sligo County Council choosing not to invite Mike Pence because of his regressive, hateful views. If we insist they invite him, where do we draw the line? Do we insist they invite Islamic fundamentalists, Russian Neo-Nazis?
There's value too in deciding someone's speech is so hateful and hurtful that you're not going to give them the time of day.

Special Circumstances

The King of Moo wrote: »

There's value too in deciding someone's speech is so hateful and hurtful that you're not going to give them the time of day.

Shades of the "Skibbereen Eagle" about it more than anything else.

"We give this solemn warning to Mr. Pence - the Sligo Snowflake has its eye on you!"

RobertKK

Riddle101 wrote: »

Anyone who would support electro-shock therapy for homosexuals, and be in favor of reducing funds for HIV treatment in favor of conversion therapy, is not a supporter of freedom of expression anyway. The guy will likely try to suppress LGBT so I can't say I'm surprised that people over here would feel that way about him.

He might be a fan of season 2 of

American Horror Story

, and never progressed beyond the electric shock therapy bit.

meeeeh

How many clapping the decision would have no problem with a bit a holiday and a shopping trip to that beacon of democracy Dubai?

I think Juncker summed it perfectly similar sentiment in regards to trade deal with Canada:
I am extremely surprised that when we conclude a trade agreement with Vietnam, a world famous country for respecting all democratic principles, nobody objects, but when we strike an agreement with Canada, a full-fledged dictatorship, everybody gets excited and blames us for not respecting human rights and fundamental economic rights...

It's the same type of nonsense. Politics is working with people you don't agree with and finding some sort solution not just congratulatory back slapping of those you a gree with.

The King of Moo

meeeeh wrote: »

How many clapping the decision would have no problem with a bit a holiday and a shopping trip to that beacon of democracy Dubai?

I think Juncker summed it perfectly similar sentiment in regards to trade deal with Canada:
I am extremely surprised that when we conclude a trade agreement with Vietnam, a world famous country for respecting all democratic principles, nobody objects, but when we strike an agreement with Canada, a full-fledged dictatorship, everybody gets excited and blames us for not respecting human rights and fundamental economic rights...

It's the same type of nonsense. Politics is working with people you don't agree with and finding some sort solution not just congratulatory back slapping of those you a gree with.

I'd never go to Dubai: awful place.