School accounts

jelenitza

My child is in a primary school. We've been getting messages that the school is in difficult financial situation and needs money, that people are not paying resource moneys etc.

However, significant amounts of money have been raised by the PTA in the last 4 years and no school accounts have been presented on the AGM to parents. This year we asked to see the accounts and only 10 parents are allowed to make the appointment to see them in principals office for 30 minutes only.

It is very difficult to make any sense of 4-5 years of accounts in only 30 minutes. I was wondering what are the procedures for viewing the accounts in other schools, would some sort of report be given to parents/children? Would parents be allowed to take the accounts home and review them? Would they be available to download maybe..

Any advice is greatly appreciated!

Cheshire Cat

That doesn't sound right at all! I spent more than 10 years on various Parents' associations and there was always a treasurer's report at the AGM and a printout of the previous year's takings, spending, account fees that people took home if they were interested.
Have a look at this publication of the National Parents Council Primary:

http://www.npc.ie/attachments/90867b7f-e9e7-46d5-aa84-2b4486ed241d.PDF

jelenitza

Thanks for your reply. I've seen the document before, and that's exactly what we're trying to do.

So far all the moneys raised have been banked by the school, sometimes we don't even get the feedback as to how much was raised, and we never get reports about where it was spent and the exact figures, except general statements like "IT" or "school resources".

Out of this frustration we have asked to see the school accounts, but only 10 appointments were allowed, and tbh a lot of people find going into the principals office to see them very intimidating.

Do you know if the parents have a right to ask for a copy of the accounts to take home or download?

happyday

I'm wondering is it the Parents Association accounts or the school accounts you are asking to see?

jelenitza

It's the school accounts.

PTA only opened a bank account this year, as per it's constitution it was supposed to be run out of the general school funds.

As I said, all the funds raised are banked by the school, and as there was no reports given about the spending, the parents requested to see the school accounts..

Cheshire Cat

Sorry, I don't know if it is a right. But seeing that the treasurer is obliged to present a yearly report and hasn't done so, you should have a lever. If I were you I would ring the NPC and ask them about it. They are very helpful.
Then write a letter to to the Board of Management outlining your concerns and ask for clarification. Get as many signatures as you can and cc your local TD and/or some local councillors.
The whole setup sounds a bit dodgy, might be just incompetence, but there is no harm in having a closer look either way.

Cheshire Cat

x

ScouseMouse

A school in Firhouse have now sent out a THIRD letter looking for cash from parents. The first one was for art and crafts materials, then another letter for something else, and now another one again, this one for toilet rolls I think. This has gotta stop.

Maybe I should start asking to see these figures.

jelenitza

We never got treasurers report, not in the last 4 years anyway. I see some other schools have them and it seems really nice to know where all the fund-raised money went. For example, last year alone around 35k was raised (we don't know the exact figure) and no reports as to where it was spent.

I never thought about contacting a local TD about this, but it might be worth it since it's all public money. Thanks for the idea!

I am not sure if there's anybody on this forum who's on the BOM of a primary school, I'd love to hear their perspective. I know they're all volunteers but would like to know if they would be required to produce these reports etc.

RainyDay

Check out Section 14 (d) (ii) of the Dept rules on Governance for primary schools;

http://www.education.ie/en/Schools-Colleges/Information/Boards-of-Management/Governance-Manual-for-Primary-Schools-2015-2019.pdf

A total account of the Board's income and expenditure shall be prepared at the end of each school year and shall be properly audited or certified in accordance with best accounting practice. This account should be made
available for inspection to the school community including parents, the Patron, Trustees (in schools where there are Trustees) and the Minister. This account should incorporate details of all accounts which may be maintained separately by the Board in compliance with the terms of particular grant schemes.

So the Department's governance rules explicitly require the schools to share details of their audited accounts with parents.

I think there is something similar in the rules for secondary schools, but you might want to check this out yourself.

This doesn't stop a Principal who has yet to discover the value and importance of openness and transparency from maintaining some control over the accounts, though the 'only 10 people' seems a bit silly. I suppose this could be a question of time management for the Principal, but that raises the question of why the Principal would need to be spending time supervising parents who want to see the accounts in the first place.

I'd suggest you go or write to the Principal, quoting the relevant Dept guidelines, copying in the parents nominees on the Board of Management and take it from there. If the Principal is still insistent on restricting the numbers, and the BoM is supporting of this foolish approach, perhaps the Parents Association could nominate the 10 people to go view the accounts, and get them to report back to the full parents body.

jelenitza

Thanks RainyDay. Our 10 days expire on Tuesday, so I guess it's a bit late to organise this now.

Tried writing to her before about something else but never got a reply, even though I sent the email twice and rang the office to ask if the email was received the second time. I might send a letter to the BOM requesting proper access to the accounts.

I think the whole idea about sitting in her office might be because of the new Garda vetting regulations, so she doesn't want us sitting anywhere else in the school until we're all vetted. However, I don't see why we can't get a copy of the accounts to take home and review, or get a pdf version by email.

It all seems very peculiar to me, especially because it's a well known educate together school :mad:

RainyDay

jelenitza wrote: »

Thanks RainyDay. Our 10 days expire on Tuesday, so I guess it's a bit late to organise this now.

Sorry, I don't get you - what is the '10 days' about?

jelenitza wrote: »

I think the whole idea about sitting in her office might be because of the new Garda vetting regulations, so she doesn't want us sitting anywhere else in the school until we're all vetted. However, I don't see why we can't get a copy of the accounts to take home and review, or get a pdf version by email.

This is nonsense. There is no issue about having people who are not Garda vetted in a school. Does every plumber or electrician or school-book salesman get Garda vetted before they cross the threshold?

Garda vetting is normally only an issue for someone who would have direct, unsupervised access to children. So a parent who joins a classroom for reading time or to help with music or IT does not need to be vetted, given that a teacher is present at all times.

If the principal is insisting on something else, ask to see the basis for the approach in the school child protection policy.

jelenitza wrote: »

It all seems very peculiar to me, especially because it's a well known educate together school :mad:

Indeed - one might expect ET to have a more open ethos, and to be more open to questioning than other schools.

Almost certainly, there is nothing underhand happening here. It may be a bit of an administrative nightmare for the principal, and they may be concerned about the time required to explain issues arising from showing the accounts. But they should be shown anyway.

jelenitza

RainyDay wrote: »

Sorry, I don't get you - what is the '10 days' about?

The accounts are available for review by parents for 10 days only since before the midterm break. So those 10 days/10 appointments are finishing this week. Two parents can't go in together but need separate appointments also :mad: (including parents from the same family)

RainyDay wrote: »

Almost certainly, there is nothing underhand happening here. It may be a bit of an administrative nightmare for the principal, and they may be concerned about the time required to explain issues arising from showing the accounts. But they should be shown anyway.

I know the principal might be very busy with other aspects of the running of the school, but tbh it's been years without any reports and some explaining would be very welcome at this stage.

RainyDay

jelenitza wrote: »

The accounts are available for review by parents for 10 days only since before the midterm break. So those 10 days/10 appointments are finishing this week. Two parents can't go in together but need separate appointments also :mad: (including parents from the same family)

This is quite bizarre - what could the Principal be trying to achieve? Keep it to one individual for ease of intimidation?

I'd suggest you look to see the accounts, and make it clear that you don't want/need supervision, and you may take some time. You can copy the accounts, by hand if necessary, or take a picture with your phone if that doesn't breach their FBI-like security procedures. Make the 10-day/10-parent thing their problem.

If you don't get to see them, then escalate to the Chairperson. If you can get other parents on board with your issue, you could take it up via the Parents Association.

Cheshire Cat

You could also contact the National Office of Educate Together to find out if they have some guidelines on finance / transparency / accountability.

byhookorbycrook

RainyDay wrote: »

Garda vetting is normally only an issue for someone who would have direct, unsupervised access to children. So a parent who joins a classroom for reading time or to help with music or IT does not need to be vetted, given that a teacher is present at all times.

If the principal is insisting on something else, ask to see the basis for the approach in the school child protection policy.


Indeed - one might expect ET to have a more open ethos, and to be more open to questioning than other schools.

Almost certainly, there is nothing underhand happening here. It may be a bit of an administrative nightmare for the principal, and they may be concerned about the time required to explain issues arising from showing the accounts. But they should be shown anyway.

Vetting rules have changed this year, we had to have all the TY work experience students vetted, even though they are never alone with the children.

jelenitza

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Vetting rules have changed this year, we had to have all the TY work experience students vetted, even though they are never alone with the children.

That's true, they changed in April I think, but they still wouldn't apply to parents who are occasionally helping in the school and are not left alone with children. They shouldn't apply to parents having an appointment in the school etc. It just seems that our school has gone a bit further than the law

Btw does anyone know what goes under BOM expenses? The figure I noticed in the accounts for one year is quite large, and seems like that should be covering only travel expenses for board members when they have to attend the meetings etc.

RainyDay

jelenitza wrote: »

Btw does anyone know what goes under BOM expenses? The figure I noticed in the accounts for one year is quite large, and seems like that should be covering only travel expenses for board members when they have to attend the meetings etc.

That's strange. In general, BoM members are within the local community by definition, though sometimes the patron nominees could be coming from afar. It would seem to a reasonable question to ask, as to what is covered here. You might come up against a wall of 'confidentiality' - so it's worth knowing that expenses claims for public sector staff have been deemed to be accessible through FOI in the past. I know this situation isn't exactly the same - but it is a fairly close parallel.

If you have further concerns, you could involve the parent nominees on the board when you raise a query.

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Vetting rules have changed this year, we had to have all the TY work experience students vetted, even though they are never alone with the children.

Thanks - I wasn't aware of that. I dug around and found the Dept's guidance;

http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0031_2016.pdf

http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0031_2016_faq.pdf

This includes;

12. Is there a requirement to vet parents who help out with the annual cake sale?
The Vetting Act does not apply to unpaid volunteers (such as parents) who assist the school on an occasional basis provided such assistance does not involve the coaching, mentoring, counselling, teaching or training of children or vulnerable persons. A parent who helps on an occasional basis is therefore not subject to vetting as long as the parent is not involved in the coaching, mentoring, counselling, teaching or training of pupils.

So it is clear that vetting would not be required for a meeting with the Principal.

byhookorbycrook

jelenitza wrote: »

That's true, they changed in April I think, but they still wouldn't apply to parents who are occasionally helping in the school and are not left alone with children. They shouldn't apply to parents having an appointment in the school etc. It just seems that our school has gone a bit further than the law

This in incorrect, anyone who will be in a school "helping out" has to be vetted.