**Nov 2016 Teacher Dispute / See post 1 for Warning **

evolving_doors

Ok new thread.

• Address the points made (rather than the poster).
• Definitely no personal comments judging other posters.
• Definitely no telling other posters to leave the thread or 'jog on' etc that is considered back-seat-modding.

***Any New posters to the forum ***
Read the charter. Also, 'Three months holidays', 'only working 22hrs' 'performance related pay' are old, typically uninformed and very very tired. It Invariably ends up in derailing a thread and annoying folk too... but feel free to start a new thread. This type of stuff may most likely be deleted from this thread.

Also now considered off topic is the old line that 'older teachers sold the younger ones out'. If you start this you may get actioned on... most likely because it means you haven't read this first post!
MOD

As usual do not respond to flaming if you are a regular poster. Just report it as off-topic and leave the rest to us (when we get around to it).
Also, thanks to those who have kept their cool and put people on ignore or reported posts.

political analyst

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/update-asti-claims-govt-have-reneged-on-pay-deal-as-minister-says-union-stance-beggars-belief-762837.html

The State Examinations Commission will keep exam plans under review depending on how long schools are closed.

political analyst

ASTI and Minister blame each other for schools shut down

The State Examinations Commission says it is keeping the timing of the Leaving Cert and Junior Cert exams “under review” in case school closures extend over a long period.

“The commission will apply common sense in responding to any situations that may emerge,” said a spokesman.

gaiscioch

Well, hopefully any teachers still buying The Irish Times will make the decision to stop buying it after this sort of article (the latest in many partisan, agenda-driven, ill-informed lazy articles by O'Brien, who is following the pattern set by his predecessor Joe Humphreys):

"Secondary schools plunged into chaos over one hour’s additional work a week: Leadership of ASTI seems caught in trap of its own making"

I know in our school strong union people were among those who got The Irish Times for 50cent per copy. These people will keep writing this agenda-driven stuff until they are hurt in the pocket/circulation. If even half of the 17,000 ASTI members stopped supporting The Irish Times financially every day, they would feel it. I've never once in my life bought any newspaper published by Independent Newspapers so they're not on my radar. For most of my life, however, The Irish Times has been bought in our home. I haven't bought it in maybe four years (you can read it for free online, if necessary)- if they're this wrong/biased/agenda-driven about an area I know about, I shudder to think of how unreliable they are on the areas I know nothing about. Awful stuff.

#BoycottIrishTimes2016

feardeas

gaiscioch wrote:

I know in our school strong union people were among those who got The Irish Times for 50cent per copy. These people will keep writing this agenda-driven stuff until they are hurt in the pocket/circulation. If even half of the 17,000 ASTI members stopped supporting The Irish Times financially every day, they would feel it. I've never once in my life bought any newspaper published by Independent Newspapers so they're not on my radar. For most of my life, however, The Irish Times has been bought in our home. I haven't bought it in maybe four years (you can read it for free online, if necessary)- if they're this wrong/biased/agenda-driven about an area I know about, I shudder to think of how unreliable they are on the areas I know nothing about. Awful stuff.

One thing this has shown is how poorly briefed and prepared some people in broadcast media are, they're paid well.

As for this article. Not surprising from the source, not totally false but still misleading.

km79

Neither side is for turning ............are there talks today ? There were to be not no article or news now reporting them

trilobite80

So what happens on Wednesday... Same as today?
Turn up and sign up, that's not sustainable for people who travel long distances.

oppenheimer1

gaiscioch wrote: »

Well, hopefully any teachers still buying The Irish Times will make the decision to stop buying it after this sort of article (the latest in many partisan, agenda-driven, ill-informed lazy articles by O'Brien, who is following the pattern set by his predecessor Joe Humphreys):

"Secondary schools plunged into chaos over one hour’s additional work a week: Leadership of ASTI seems caught in trap of its own making"

I know in our school strong union people were among those who got The Irish Times for 50cent per copy. These people will keep writing this agenda-driven stuff until they are hurt in the pocket/circulation. If even half of the 17,000 ASTI members stopped supporting The Irish Times financially every day, they would feel it. I've never once in my life bought any newspaper published by Independent Newspapers so they're not on my radar. For most of my life, however, The Irish Times has been bought in our home. I haven't bought it in maybe four years (you can read it for free online, if necessary)- if they're this wrong/biased/agenda-driven about an area I know about, I shudder to think of how unreliable they are on the areas I know nothing about. Awful stuff.

#BoycottIrishTimes2016

What exactly is misleading in that article, because it seems fair and reasonable.

If you don't believe why ASTI have been caught in a trap of its own making is because ASTI have effectively been forced on an all out strike at the time of year when they hold few cards. The unions generally disrupted things before the summer exams as disrupting these would cause severe problems. Going out in November hurts no one really but themselves.

Once ASTI members have lost a weeks pay, this will start to focus minds in the union. It will be the union that will have to back down here, not the government. It suits them that you are out now and will leave you out until it gets too cold and you want back in.

There won't be a big win here for ASTI like there was with the guards, as they do not have as big a stick to beat the government with.

Chancer3001

trilobite80 wrote: »

So what happens on Wednesday... Same as today?
Turn up and sign up, that's not sustainable for people who travel long distances.

Why not? Theyd have to travel the distance to teach anyways if it was a regular day....

political analyst

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

What exactly is misleading in that article, because it seems fair and reasonable.

If you don't believe why ASTI have been caught in a trap of its own making is because ASTI have effectively been forced on an all out strike at the time of year when they hold few cards. The unions generally disrupted things before the summer exams as disrupting these would cause severe problems. Going out in November hurts no one really but themselves.

Once ASTI members have lost a weeks pay, this will start to focus minds in the union. It will be the union that will have to back down here, not the government. It suits them that you are out now and will leave you out until it gets too cold and you want back in.

There won't be a big win here for ASTI like there was with the guards, as they do not have as big a stick to beat the government with.

ASTI members only have to partially back down to get the schools open again - by doing S&S unpaid, which is what they did until 2002.

trilobite80

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Why not? Theyd have to travel the distance to teach anyways if it was a regular day....

And they would be getting paid.

Fian

I have been baffled by the posters in the other thread who seemed to feel it was an injustice that they would not be paid when they are conducting an industrial action which has caused schools to close.

It was obvious and inevitable that the Government could not and would not pay teachers while they were having an impact on the schooling system equivalent to that which would accrue from an all out indefinite strike. That would have made it impossible for government not to surrender to any demands the union wanted to present them with.

Teachers are entitled to strike. I agree that the lower rate of pay for new entrants is unsustainable and unfair. I think without any industrial action at all it would inevitably be unwound eventually, though probably not soon enough.

However the idea that the ASTI could shut the school system down and get paid to sit in empty classes was always absurd.

km79

trilobite80 wrote: »

And they would be getting paid.

why would any of us bother so? It's a work day. We ARE available to work. We are NOT on strike. So we turn up for work

evolving_doors

Fian wrote: »

I have been baffled by the posters in the other thread who seemed to feel it was an injustice that they would not be paid when they are conducting an industrial action which has caused schools to close.

It was obvious and inevitable that the Government could not and would not pay teachers while they were having an impact on the schooling system equivalent to that which would accrue from an all out indefinite strike. That would have made it impossible for government not to surrender to any demands the union wanted to present them with.

Teachers are entitled to strike. I agree that the lower rate of pay for new entrants is unsustainable and unfair. I think without any industrial action at all it would inevitably be unwound eventually, though probably not soon enough.

However the idea that the ASTI could shut the school system down and get paid to sit in empty classes was always absurd.

So what would you say of ASTI schools that are open with subs drafted in for S&S. Should those teachers who turn up to teach get paid?
Should the teachers who opted out of S&S be paid?

amacca

Fian wrote: »

However the idea that the ASTI could shut the school system down and get paid to sit in empty classes was always absurd.

The Govt have shut the school system down by not honouring the terms of the agreement they themselves drafted.....they have been deliberately provocative and were willing to pay 3rd parties more than they had previously agreed to pay teachers (which wasn't exactly a pirates bounty either mind) to try and beat them into a new agreement....the Govt are the ones who have acted dishonourably here and that should be understood at this stage...then the minister for education has the gall to blame this on the ASTI for not letting its principals facilitate potentially completely inexperienced 3rd parties supervising as if it was ever a runner

They knew this was coming down the tracks for months and got another extension and still did next to nothing about it.

If this is how they honour agreements I believe it would make most people think twice about entering into another one with them.

Fian

Gebgbegb wrote: »

So what would you say of ASTI schools that are open with subs drafted in for S&S. Should those teachers who turn up to teach get paid?
Should the teachers who opted out of S&S be paid?

Yes and Yes.

I expect they will in both instances.

trilobite80

km79 wrote: »

why would any of us bother so? It's a work day. We ARE available to work. We are NOT on strike. So we turn up for work

I agree with you, but I'm afraid that people will start to break ranks, already heard some of it this morning.

bdreamling

What are the odds of schools staying closed tomorrow?

TheDriver

bdreamling wrote: »

What are the odds of schools staying closed tomorrow?

I'd say 100%, strike tomorrow

km79

trilobite80 wrote: »

I agree with you, but I'm afraid that people will start to break ranks, already heard some of it this morning.

it's pretty obvious who will win this battle now so

bdreamling

TheDriver wrote: »

I'd say 100%, strike tomorrow

Ok thanks that's good to know! Sixth year student here and I support the teachers as they have the right to strike, as all unions do. Just hope it's resolved sooner rather than later- wouldn't like to be missing more than two weeks of school that would be worrying. Actually made productive use out of today and could do the same tomorrow to be honest! I don't like how wishy washy everything is though, makes it difficult to plan anything. Like I should do all my work today just in case we open tomorrow, but then if we're closed for the week I have run out! But there's nothing to be done about that really

Benicetomonty

Wouldnt be so sure. Of all shows to be referencing, just listened to Liveline and there were 2 or 3 v articulate teachers speaking that were well able to defend our position. Even managed to shut Joe up, never easy!

Aufbau

Fian wrote: »

I have been baffled by the posters in the other thread who seemed to feel it was an injustice that they would not be paid when they are conducting an industrial action which has caused schools to close.

It's the Boards of Management under the direction of the JMB that have caused to schools to close by not organising the hiring of non-teachers to supervise, and a proper workable panel of substitute teachers.

Some schools had already done this and are open today. Most were either too lazy to put the effort in or were led by the nose by those who want teachers to be employees who do anything they're told rather than professional teachers.

Schools could be open today if non-union principals, deputies, trustee members, unemployed teachers etc agreed to step in for the good of the students and to support the staff.

Are applications for supervisors stuck for Garda vetting reasons? Not according to reports, because recruitment was not attempted due to opposition from the JMB.

Why?

Mebuntu

Benicetomonty wrote: »

just listened to Liveline and there were 2 or 3 v articulate teachers speaking that were well able to defend our position. Even managed to shut Joe up, never easy!

Sorry, I'm just Joe Public and have no children affected by the dispute but I have to disagree with your view of Liveline today. Nothing those teachers said justified their position in any shape or form - quite the opposite, in fact. The same can be said having heard from your leader speaking on radio earlier this morning.

Just face the facts. The ASTI haven't a leg to stand on and the longer this goes on you are all callously hurting the very people you purport to love to serve.

Benicetomonty

Mebuntu wrote: »

Sorry, I'm just Joe Public and have no children affected by the dispute but I have to disagree with your view of Liveline today. Nothing those teachers said justified their position in any shape or form - quite the opposite, in fact. The same can be said having heard from your leader speaking on radio earlier this morning.

Just face the facts. The ASTI haven't a leg to stand on and the longer this goes on you are all callously hurting the very people you purport to love to serve.

Im curious to know what argument was unreasonable or poorly articulated so. Or was it the gentleman who spewed the usual "holidays" rubbish that convinced you that teachers are wrong to continue in this totally unrelated dispute?

judeboy101

trilobite80 wrote: »

So what happens on Wednesday... Same as today?
Turn up and sign up, that's not sustainable for people who travel long distances.

How do they sustain it the other 182 days?

oppenheimer1

Please read the forum charter and also the first post. Feel free to start a new thread if you wish to discuss your points of view. Mod

TheDriver

Right folks, keep on track please. This is about the dispute and all that it entails. I won't tolerate any contravention of our forum charter namely wild throw around comments about teachers terms and conditions that don't form part of this dispute.

trilobite80

judeboy101 wrote: »

How do they sustain it the other 182 days?

The 30 pieces of silver...?
Filthy lucre...

Benicetomonty

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

What is rubbish about bringing up the teachers holidays? When there's an industrial dispute everything is up for grabs. And when a major part of this dispute is over a measly 33 extra hours a year, looking at the issue in the context of teachers conditions is entirely justified.

Teachers don't want to talk about their holidays because they cannot justify them. All teachers do throw a lazy dismissive remark that any commentary on them is founded in jealousy.

Because they are unrelated to THIS dispute. Because people who resort to criticising them are proving that they are, at best, unable to articulately outline any reasons why teachers are in the wrong in relation to THIS dispute and, at worst, prejudiced against teachers' owing to an unhealthy begrudgery of their working conditions. Rather than seeking to improve their own conditions, they would have others' decimated.

Those 33 hours that you mention are only partially relevant, but I'll bite. Teachers signed up to Croke Park and we did the hours. Ditto Haddington Road. Having fulfilled entirely the conditions of each, in a democratic vote, we rejected Lansdowne Road. That meant an end to CP hours. Simple.

I understand that this may not sit well with other public servants but the sad fact is that they signed up to do them. ASTI didnt. The hours are/were unique in the contexts of schools because unlike other public sectors, they save the govt no money whatsoever. Schools function perfectly well without them. So the govt, rather than thinking of something creative and productive that is in anyway comparable to the rest of the public sector, have dug their heels in and insisted that I have to sit through 2 hour meetings with every other member of my staff discussing things that might, at a stretch, have relevance for may 15pc of those present while I and the majority of others might be making an exam or correcting copies. It is a farce and undermines teachers in the extreme. That no extra curricular activities or individual work can be counted towards them is an insult.

Benicetomonty

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Because they are unrelated to THIS dispute. Because people who resort to criticising them are proving that they are, at best, unable to articulately outline any reasons why teachers are in the wrong in relation to THIS dispute and, at worst, prejudiced against teachers' owing to an unhealthy begrudgery of their working conditions. Rather than seeking to improve their own conditions, they would have others' decimated.

Those 33 hours that you mention are only partially relevant, but I'll bite. Teachers signed up to Croke Park and we did the hours. Ditto Haddington Road. Having fulfilled entirely the conditions of each, in a democratic vote, we rejected Lansdowne Road. That meant an end to CP hours. Simple.

I understand that this may not sit well with other public servants but the sad fact is that they signed up to do them. ASTI didnt. The hours are/were unique in the contexts of schools because unlike other public sectors, they save the govt no money whatsoever. Schools function perfectly well without them. So the govt, rather than thinking of something creative and productive that is in anyway comparable to the rest of the public sector, have dug their heels in and insisted that I have to sit through 2 hour meetings with every other member of my staff discussing things that might, at a stretch, have relevance for may 15pc of those present while I and the majority of others might be making an exam or correcting copies. It is a farce and undermines teachers in the extreme. That no extra curricular activities or individual work can be counted towards them is an insult.

Posted in response to a deleted retort. Apologies to mods if off topic in any way.

vin33

Mebuntu wrote: »

Benicetomonty wrote: »

just listened to Liveline and there were 2 or 3 v articulate teachers speaking that were well able to defend our position. Even managed to shut Joe up, never easy!

Sorry, I'm just Joe Public and have no children affected by the dispute but I have to disagree with your view of Liveline today. Nothing those teachers said justified their position in any shape or form - quite the opposite, in fact. The same can be said having heard from your leader speaking on radio earlier this morning.

Just face the facts. The ASTI haven't a leg to stand on and the longer this goes on you are all callously hurting the very people you purport to love to serve.

I thought Ed Byrne spoke very well this morning and argued his points very well. I didn't think so in previous interviews I heard.
That said, the problem is that there are too many points to argue and most people looking in don't have the time, interest or attention span to listen. Throw in the usual complaints about holidays and hours and you can see how it's difficult for you to win over the public. Without that I don't see the government conceding anything. Bear in mind that the potential future leaders of Fine Gael have all publicly argued against the teachers position.

ethical

Just listening to Minister Bruton on TodayFM and he is hell bent on the non seperation of s & s and Croke Parke hours and this has led the media in general to be totally mixed up over what the dispute is about! He comes across as someone that dosent know what is actually happening on the ground and really he sounds like he is a "glove puppet" for Paschal Donoghue,who is just interested in feathering his own nest.Its time they both got real.

okedoke

Was it ever proposed to have teachers teach an extra hour per week for the CP hours, instead of the seemingly make work hours currently. All other PS workers are working 1-2 extra hours per week.

vin33

ethical wrote: »

Just listening to Minister Bruton on TodayFM and he is hell bent on the non seperation of s & s and Croke Parke hours and this has led the media in general to be totally mixed up over what the dispute is about! He comes across as someone that dosent know what is actually happening on the ground and really he sounds like he is a "glove puppet" for Paschal Donoghue,who is just interested in feathering his own nest.Its time they both got real.

So you think he's confusing the issues by mistake or because he doesn't know what he's doing?

Benicetomonty

okedoke wrote: »

Was it ever proposed to have teachers teach an extra hour per week for the CP hours, instead of the seemingly make work hours currently. All other PS workers are working 1-2 extra hours per week.

Probably. But teaching an extra hour would bring with it the necessity for more prep, corrections etc, which would extend far beyond 1 hour when all is said and done.

oppenheimer1

okedoke wrote: »

Was it ever proposed to have teachers teach an extra hour per week for the CP hours, instead of the seemingly make work hours currently. All other PS workers are working 1-2 extra hours per week.

It suited teaching unions at the time that CP hours would be essentially non productive - meetings etc. If they had been regularised into the working day, where say teachers had to give an hour grind to any student that needed extra help, then it would have become regularised and very hard to reverse.

Mardy Bum

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

okedoke wrote: »

Was it ever proposed to have teachers teach an extra hour per week for the CP hours, instead of the seemingly make work hours currently. All other PS workers are working 1-2 extra hours per week.

It suited teaching unions at the time that CP hours would be essentially non productive - meetings etc. If they had been regularised into the working day, where say teachers had to give an hour grind to any student that needed extra help, then it would have become regularised and very hard to reverse.

Teachers already have one of the longest class times in the OECD. There is no need for an extra hour per week of class teaching.

oppenheimer1

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Teachers already have one of the longest class times in the OECD. There is no need for an extra hour per week of class teaching.

There's not is there? I suppose that explains the non existence of a massive grinds industry in this country.

No, no students need extra help.:rolleyes:

The_Valeyard

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Teachers already have one of the longest class times in the OECD. There is no need for an extra hour per week of class teaching.

According to <mod snip>Ed Walsh, former head of UL on Newstalk today, teachers are pampered, lazy people with poor degrees and shortest teaching hours in Europe.

Keep it clean please, next one is an infraction. After that a ban.
Thanks

Benicetomonty

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

There's not is there? I suppose that explains the non existence of a massive grinds industry in this country.

No, no students need extra help.:rolleyes:

Doesnt matter how many hours kids are in a classroom if those classrooms are overcrowded. Nothing will replace 1 to 1 tuition with a qualified motivated teacher so grinds are here to stay. If you want this industry to be less popular, the solution is simple: reduce the pupil teacher ratio.

Iused2likebusts

The_Valeyard wrote: »

According to <.Mod Snip.>, Ed Walsh, former head of UL on Newstalk today, teachers are pampered, lazy people with poor degrees and shortest teaching hours in Europe.

Our holidays are now up to 6 and a half months a year. Ed deciding to include weekends in his argument aswell.

political analyst

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

It suited teaching unions at the time that CP hours would be essentially non productive - meetings etc. If they had been regularised into the working day, where say teachers had to give an hour grind to any student that needed extra help, then it would have become regularised and very hard to reverse.

It wouldn't have been feasible to extend the amount of time for which pupils are in school, considering that children are not as able to handle stress as adults are.

Villain

RTE suggesting that if Croke Park hours are agreed to there is a deal, why do ASTI think that they should be exempt from them when all other public servants do them?

political analyst

Many ASTI members, when they voted fir withdrawal from S&S, may have believed that there would be external personnel brought in to do S&S. It is likely that they will put pressure on their leadership to rescind the directive in which withdrawal from S&S was ordered. I believe they'd rather do S&S unpaid than let their pupils' prospects be damaged.

Iused2likebusts

Villain wrote: »

RTE suggesting that if Croke Park hours are agreed to there is a deal, why do ASTI think that they should be exempt from them when all other public servants do them?

Because a proportion of them are pointless and end up costing the country money. I've no problem doing pt meetings and staff meetings outside school hours but most of the rest of the stuff we do is just a box ticking excercise that benefits nobody.

oppenheimer1

political analyst wrote: »

It wouldn't have been feasible to extend the amount of time for which pupils are in school, considering that children are not as able to handle stress as adults are.

This is the problem with the mindset of teachers in Ireland -excuses, problems and resistance to any sort of change. My suggestion was that CP hours should be used to give students that need and want extra help. It's hardly that stressful on students when they seek the same service privately.

Any sort of forward thinking proposal is met with resistance from the unions unless it involves more money or less work for them.

evolving_doors

okedoke wrote: »

Was it ever proposed to have teachers teach an extra hour per week for the CP hours, instead of the seemingly make work hours currently. All other PS workers are working 1-2 extra hours per week.

Just pondering.. how would you throw an extra hour on to every teacher's timetable. You'd probably have to fire 2 teachers to make room.

Villain

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Because a proportion of them are pointless and end up costing the country money. I've no problem doing pt meetings and staff meetings outside school hours but most of the rest of the stuff we do is just a box ticking excercise that benefits nobody.

Some are and the TUI got a bit more room on how they can be used but some also make sense e.g. parent teacher meetings.

Surely 33 hours isn't worth this mess?

amacca

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Any sort of forward thinking proposal is met with resistance from the unions unless it involves more money or less work for them.

And any sort of suggestion that teachers might actually be in the right about the withdrawal of SS due to Govt side not honouring their own agreements is at best ignored.

political analyst

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

This is the problem with the mindset of teachers in Ireland -excuses, problems and resistance to any sort of change. My suggestion was that CP hours should be used to give students that need and want extra help. It's hardly that stressful on students when they seek the same service privately.

Any sort of forward thinking proposal is met with resistance from the unions unless it involves more money or less work for them.

It would reduce pupils' home-time and thus increase their stress levels.