mark up of concentrates

Dunedin

Had a rep in my yard from one of the supposedly premium suppliers the other day.

Essentially he claims that the components of his nut is better than the one i currently use (which is €40 a ton cheaper than his brand). I basically looked at the % breakdown of the protein, fats, fibre etc. of each and the other brand is slightly higher in each than his so I would have thought that regardless of the ingredients, It's the % of each at the end that determines the quality.

Basically is there any reason why it would differ in quality once the overall % is compared like for like?

freedominacup

Dunedin wrote: »

Had a rep in my yard from one of the supposedly premium suppliers the other day.

Essentially he claims that the components of his nut is better than the one i currently use (which is €40 a ton cheaper than his brand). I basically looked at the % breakdown of the protein, fats, fibre etc. of each and the other brand is slightly higher in each than his so I would have thought that regardless of the ingredients, It's the % of each at the end that determines the quality.

Basically is there any reason why it would differ in quality once the overall % is compared like for like?

The nominal protein content of urea is 270% roughly. Huge difference between quality and availability of energy and protein in different ingredients. Going outside of soya, distillers, and rapeseed for protein and wheat, barley and maizemeal for energy you are looking at poor quality ingredients. So to answer your question, yes there are numerous reasons why it would differ in quality.

Dunedin

freedominacup wrote: »

The nominal protein content of urea is 270% roughly. Huge difference between quality and availability of energy and protein in different ingredients. Going outside of soya, distillers, and rapeseed for protein and wheat, barley and maizemeal for energy you are looking at poor quality ingredients. So to answer your question, yes there are numerous reasons why it would differ in quality.

I probably didn't articulate the question very well.

The protein content in his nut is 15% and the one I am using is 16%. I will be feeding to stores over winter so protein is important. But does it matter how they reach the final protein %

Anyone any links to articles on this topic.

Injuryprone

List out the ingredients of both nuts

_Brian

Dunedin wrote: »

I probably didn't articulate the question very well.

The protein content in his nut is 15% and the one I am using is 16%. I will be feeding to stores over winter so protein is important. But does it matter how they reach the final protein %

Anyone any links to articles on this topic.

In my limited knowledge it comes down to digestability. No use in 16% if it's not being digested and just passing out.

Better ingredients, soy for example are more digestible.

ganmo

the analysis on the label is crude, it is a rough calculation based on typical analysis for each ingredient

emphasis on crude.

40 quid per tonne could make for a considerably more expensive winter

freedominacup

ganmo wrote: »

40 quid per tonne could make for a considerably more expensive winter

Or it could be much better value. It would be a fairly extreme example but quite possible. You could well get better performance from a lower feed rate.

C0N0R

Dunedin wrote: »

freedominacup wrote: »

The nominal protein content of urea is 270% roughly. Huge difference between quality and availability of energy and protein in different ingredients. Going outside of soya, distillers, and rapeseed for protein and wheat, barley and maizemeal for energy you are looking at poor quality ingredients. So to answer your question, yes there are numerous reasons why it would differ in quality.

I probably didn't articulate the question very well.

The protein content in his nut is 15% and the one I am using is 16%. I will be feeding to stores over winter so protein is important. But does it matter how they reach the final protein %

Anyone any links to articles on this topic.

Yes it does. Take for example you are training and you need to eat 2000 calories, you can eat that 1000 different ways and each way will have a different effect on your body.

You would need to dig down and look at pdin pdie values, see how much of it is rumen degradable protein etc. It could easily be a better nut but is it worth 40 a tonne more is the question.

orm0nd

Soya is a top P ingredient. However with out suitable fibre it will pass through undigested. Milk urea tests are a good indicator of how protein is being utilised. Rape seed digests at a different stage of the gut than soya and is beneficial in the mix.

Bass Reeves

OP best way to access quality of a ration/nut is to look at list of ingredients. If you are good enough you can nearly access the amount of each. I am dubious about salesmen especially of rations telling you that there's is a higher spec. There are a bit like car salesman. 40/ton is a huge difference for ingredients with the cost of materials used at present. Just as a matter of interest what is the price of both and list of ingredients.

At the moment millers are holding price of rations quite high even though all ingredients are back in price of 20-30 euro/ton. They did not drop there prices last year either in relation to price of ingredients. Maybe the lad with the cheaper nut is watching to grab market share.

White Clover

orm0nd wrote: »

Soya is a top P ingredient. However with out suitable fibre it will pass through undigested. Milk urea tests are a good indicator of how protein is being utilised. Rape seed digests at a different stage of the gut than soya and is beneficial in the mix.

What fibre source would u go for this time of year orm0nd? concentrate being fed along with paddock bales.

mahoney_j

White Clover wrote: »

What fibre source would u go for this time of year orm0nd? concentrate being fed along with paddock bales.

Beer pulp for me

orm0nd

White Clover wrote: »

What fibre source would u go for this time of year orm0nd? concentrate being fed along with paddock bales.

beet pulp was always included here but of late years it's not available or too dear to justify

soya hulls and citrus are more attractive now, maybe good quality straw if convenient to do so,

as somebody mentioned in an earlier post , often a cheaper mix/nut would be more viable than an expensive 1

Bass Reeves

White Clover wrote: »

What fibre source would u go for this time of year orm0nd? concentrate being fed along with paddock bales.

It would depend on amount of ration being fed and how well bales were wilted. If I was feeding less that 3kgs/head I would not see any need for a fibre source if paddock bales had been wilted. If bales were low dm I would consider some straw on top of bales.

If bales were very well wilted you can get carbonated sugars at a high content on bales and can some times encounted very loose dung.

freedominacup

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It would depend on amount of ration being fed and how well bales were wilted. If I was feeding less that 3kgs/head I would not see any need for a fibre source if paddock bales had been wilted. If bales were low dm I would consider some straw on top of bales.

If bales were very well wilted you can get carbonated sugars at a high content on bales and can some times encounted very loose dung.

What are carbonated sugars and are they generally beneficial? What should you be watching for? We had some very loose dung when on third cut very dry and very leafy bales.

Mooooo

Same here, got tedded and raked but a light shower fell on being baled. cows were lose enough on them. I put it down to late cut and grass not being as dry as I thought

Bass Reeves

freedominacup wrote: »

What are carbonated sugars and are they generally beneficial? What should you be watching for? We had some very loose dung when on third cut very dry and very leafy bales.

As far as I know it is the sugars in the grass that are cooked(carmelized) in the wilting process by heat from the sun. Cattle will have a huge intake of such silage dure to high DM and even though it is very dry will tend to be loose. If cattle are on a finishing diet they would want access to straw as well. Cows if milking and on a high intake of ration/nuts would be in a similar situation. IOf I was feeding a fibre source use hulls. However usually you only have a limited amount of such silage unless you first cut is cut and wilted in very hot weather. It was a nutritionist that told me about it when I had cattle going ver loose on a finishing diet so it is from memory I am working.

freedominacup

Bass Reeves wrote: »

As far as I know it is the sugars in the grass that are cooked(carmelized) in the wilting process by heat from the sun. Cattle will have a huge intake of such silage dure to high DM and even though it is very dry will tend to be loose. If cattle are on a finishing diet they would want access to straw as well. Cows if milking and on a high intake of ration/nuts would be in a similar situation. IOf I was feeding a fibre source use hulls. However usually you only have a limited amount of such silage unless you first cut is cut and wilted in very hot weather. It was a nutritionist that told me about it when I had cattle going ver loose on a finishing diet so it is from memory I am working.

So no particular problem with it just add some fibre.

yosemitesam1

Bass Reeves wrote: »

As far as I know it is the sugars in the grass that are cooked(carmelized) in the wilting process by heat from the sun. Cattle will have a huge intake of such silage dure to high DM and even though it is very dry will tend to be loose. If cattle are on a finishing diet they would want access to straw as well. Cows if milking and on a high intake of ration/nuts would be in a similar situation. IOf I was feeding a fibre source use hulls. However usually you only have a limited amount of such silage unless you first cut is cut and wilted in very hot weather. It was a nutritionist that told me about it when I had cattle going ver loose on a finishing diet so it is from memory I am working.

Is that the maillard reaction? Needs 60 degrees + to happen, well wilted bales in the sun would presumably heat up faster than wet bales and also favour more fungi too..

yosemitesam1

freedominacup wrote: »

What are carbonated sugars and are they generally beneficial? What should you be watching for? We had some very loose dung when on third cut very dry and very leafy bales.

Would they have been high in nitrogen still?

freedominacup

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Would they have been high in nitrogen still?

Probably. Didn't test because it was so dry.