Restricted Shotguns (MOD NOTE in post #11)

turismo2142

Restricted shotgun applications are now being refused in Cork it seems. District Court cases are pending.

Seems that the increased interest in embassy cup has set off some alarms.

I expect to go to the DC myself shortly.

Rimfire Shooter

NASRPC wrote: »

We are thinking of hosting Embassy Cup as part of the NASRPC competitions next year, at ranges which are suitable.

Would there be an interest in this?

I would but only if unrestricted guns were used. No interest in looking for a restricted licence.

clivej

Rimfire Shooter wrote: »

I would but only if unrestricted guns were used. No interest in looking for a restricted licence.

Because of the required number of shells needed, minimum of 4, for each detail this competition can only be shot with a restricted shotgun.
Also without a restricted license you won't be able to buy the ammo.

Rimfire Shooter

clivej wrote: »

Because of the required number of shells needed, minimum of 4, for each detail this competition can only be shot with a restricted shotgun.
Also without a restricted license you won't be able to buy the ammo.

Wouldn't be that difficult to amend it to 3 shells.

I agree that anything other than slugs would make scoring harder on paper.

turismo2142

It has to be a restricted firearm. Can't see how you could score buckshot or birdshot? Wad holes??? lol

Rimfire Shooter

turismo2142 wrote: »

It has to be a restricted firearm.

You could use an unrestricted shotgun with slugs if you amend the course of fire. The slugs would need a restricted licence so you may as well have the restricted shotgun at that stage lol.

ntipptop

Definitely
Would love it became part of nasrpc competitions
As clive said restricted shotguns with slugs only real way to score
To shoot it with any other ammo would have have to change competition, just shoot clays
What's the big deal with trying for a restricted licence???

On what grounds are "they" refusing???

Rimfire Shooter

ntipptop wrote: »

What's the big deal with trying for a restricted licence???

On what grounds are "they" refusing???

You ask & answer the question all in the same few lines for me.

Not sure I would be to be honest but don't want a refusal on my record & I'm not throwing money at a court case.

In light of previous Garda proposals I wonder will they once again come after semi & pump action shotties as it's safe to assume they were probably only after the restricted ones the last time but messed up the wording.

turismo2142

Rimfire Shooter wrote: »

You ask & answer the question all in the same few lines for me.

Not sure I would be to be honest but don't want a refusal on my record & I'm not throwing money at a court case.

In light of previous Garda proposals I wonder will they once again come after semi & pump action shotties as it's safe to assume they were probably only after the restricted ones the last time but messed up the wording.

Rimfire Shooter wrote: »

You ask & answer the question all in the same few lines for me.

Not sure I would be to be honest but don't want a refusal on my record & I'm not throwing money at a court case.

In light of previous Garda proposals I wonder will they once again come after semi & pump action shotties as it's safe to assume they were probably only after the restricted ones the last time but messed up the wording.

Every semi and pump is a potentially restricted firearm. The two minute job it takes to insert a wooden/aluminium plug is the only difference.

To ban restricted shotguns is to effectively and necessarily ban all pumps and semis. And that, for costs and "lets not screw over the farmers" reasons alone, will never be effected by our legislature.

The legislature specifically allows the licensing of restricted shotguns subject to the fact that the granting of certificates is held to the higher standard required for an restricted certificate. Slugs were made restricted a decade ago, not because there's anything particularly dangerous about them (.308s are unrestricted ffs and they travel at over twice the velocity and have a higher muzzle energy and way way superior range plus you can have 10 of them in a bolt action magazine all on an unrestricted cert) but because they were being used for poaching.

It's all such nonsense

Rimfire Shooter

turismo2142 wrote: »

Every semi and pump is a potentially restricted firearm. The two minute job it takes to insert a wooden/aluminium plug is the only difference.

Not in all. Some have magazines that are restricted to two shells. Not to say someone can't but another magazine though but nothing to say they won't rob a bank with it either.

turismo2142 wrote: »

To ban restricted shotguns is to effectively and necessarily ban all pumps and semis. And that, for costs and "lets not screw over the farmers" reasons alone, will never be effected by our legislature

.

Not really. They can ban what are now restricted and still allow unrestricted. Stroke of the ministers pen is all it will take. Paying costs is not a certainty here just because it happen elsewhere. Farmer can use unrestricted they don't need 3+ in the magazine or slugs. 36g Eley Alphamax BB's have always done the job on foxes for me.

turismo2142 wrote: »

The legislature specifically allows the licensing of restricted shotguns subject to the fact that the granting of certificates is held to the higher standard required for an restricted certificate. Slugs were made restricted a decade ago, not because there's anything particularly dangerous about them (.308s are unrestricted ffs and they travel at over twice the velocity and have a higher muzzle energy and way way superior range plus you can have 10 of them in a bolt action magazine all on an unrestricted cert) but because they were being used for poaching.

Agreed. But when someone uses the "public safety" argument that logic goes out the window for most.

turismo2142 wrote: »

It's all such nonsense

It is

Cass

Splitting out legislative posts from Target forum thread about restricted vs unrestricted shotguns.

Original thread here.

turismo2142

No, I suppose I didn't explain myself correctly.

In the present case it's greater than 2+1 cap shotguns the gardai suggest "they've concerns" about. Which is idiotic as all pumps and semis are greater than this save for the insertion of a plug.

Chief Supers will never criticise the applicant in their refusal. In other words they'll always say "oh you're not the problem, you're a decent person and we trust you...yada yada, we're just worried about the shotgun falling into the wrong hands"

So what, in the extremely unlikely event that my 5+1 mag shotgun is stolen will the fact of a plug being in it will make all the difference to public safety?

Such utter nonsense.

Whether a shotgun is plugged or not it's the same gun. Plug comes out easily. So if it fell into the wrong hands who, unlike me weren't concerned about doing the right and lawful thing, then the concern the gardai have for a restricted one should also be the same for an unrestricted one. And by that rationale they should have a problem with all pumps and semis. Which they don't (or at least they say they don't, because they come after all pumps and semis would psh off the IFA) which just shows that it's all pointless nonsense. Wasting my time, Garda time and Court time.

Central licensing for restricted firearms can't come quick enough.

The working group's recommendations in 2014 tried to suggest a ban on shotguns capable of greater than 2+1 capacity. It was either born out of technical ignorance or utter cynicism that no such semi or pump existed. If they simply wanted to ban the category of restricted shotguns they could have simply said so. But they didn't! Which speaks volumes.

Anyways. I can't see any huge mad rush to license restricted shotguns. It'll remain a niche competition at nasrpc events which we will compete in internationally with our British gallery shooting brethren.

But I'd like to know who would be interested too

Grizzly 45

There is actually a way to appease fears about restricted shotguns not falling into the wrong hands etc bs. Box mags..Without the box mag the gun is a awkward single shot shotgun. As said before I firmly belive the CS can issue an endorsement that an unrestriced shotgun could be converted on the range to a multi shot restricted gun for the purpose of a competition on a set date.If they can endorse as to when and where M1 carbines can be used in gallery competitions why not shotguns?

turismo2142

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

There is actually a way to appease fears about restricted shotguns not falling into the wrong hands etc bs. Box mags..Without the box mag the gun is a awkward single shot shotgun. As said before I firmly belive the CS can issue an endorsement that an unrestriced shotgun could be converted on the range to a multi shot restricted gun for the purpose of a competition on a set date.If they can endorse as to when and where M1 carbines can be used in gallery competitions why not shotguns?

No Grizz, the fears are overstated disingenuous nonsense made up by senior members of the gardaí who have more interest in climbing "ladders" than being seized of facts or realities. Nobody should concede pandering to that.

turismo2142

We don't all aspire to box mag mossbergs. ;-)

Anyways, box magazine firearms will attract even more ire than fixed tube mags surely.

Grizzly 45

Ten in a box or ten plus in an extended tube?Same difference..Except the box has the advantage of being removed and rendering the gun virtually useless.

gunny123

turismo2142 wrote: »

No Grizz, the fears are overstated disingenuous nonsense made up by senior members of the gardaí who have more interest in climbing "ladders" than being seized of facts or realities. Nobody should concede pandering to that.

The system here should be like the German system, the police only give you background and criminal record clearance, to make sure you are not an isis agent or whatever. They probably don't even know what type of firearm you are applying for.

The rest of the work is done by a centralised office, staffed by civilians with no axe to grind regards firearms ownership. Thats what gets up my nose about the Irish system (which is simply an extension of what the British left us), they are too concerned with the firearm and not the person applying for it.

A firearm, be it a single shot .22 or H&K mp 5, or whatever, is an inanimate object that cannot harm anyone or anything, without human input. So when the super/chief super says "its not you its the gun" he is telling barefaced lies. He does not trust YOU with this gun.

turismo2142

Grizz. The point I make is that said ten round box mag is more "assaulty" looking and likely to go down even worse with the uninformed.

Don't think mags suit shotguns quite that well anyways.

Anyways, box mags are far slower than a well drilled/practiced double/quad finger/thumb load into a tube mag. That's why you'll never see them used in competitions.

;-p

gunny123

turismo2142 wrote: »

Grizz. The point I make is that said ten round box mag is more "assaulty" looking and likely to go down even worse with the uninformed.


;-p

So do unrestricted rifles like the lee enfields and the ruger scouts. So its another example of the irrational "i don't like the look o dat" attitude.

Grizzly 45

turismo2142 wrote: »

Grizz. The point I make is that said ten round box mag is more "assaulty" looking and likely to go down even worse with the uninformed.

Don't think mags suit shotguns quite that well anyways.

Anyways, box mags are far slower than a well drilled/practiced double/quad finger/thumb load into a tube mag. That's why you'll never see them used in competitions.

;-p

Sorry very wrong there Turismo.They dominate IPSC shotgun open.And while people arefaffing about with two or four round reloads.Thats done in seconds with a box or a twister mag.
Marlin goose gun and mossberg 70.Two box loaded shotguns available here for generations....Doubt anyone would cal them assaulty".But maybe the Russian TOZ 16 might be considerd such as it is a box loaded 4 shot bolt action with a AK style folding stock.

Grizzly 45

turismo2142 wrote: »

Grizz. The point I make is that said ten round box mag is more "assaulty" looking and likely to go down even worse with the uninformed.

Don't think mags suit shotguns quite that well anyways.

Anyways, box mags are far slower than a well drilled/practiced double/quad finger/thumb load into a tube mag. That's why you'll never see them used in competitions.

;-p

Sorry very wrong there Turismo.They dominate IPSC shotgun open.And while people arefaffing about with two or four round reloads.Thats done in seconds with a box or a twister mag.
Marlin goose gun and mossberg 70.Two box loaded shotguns available here for generations....Doubt anyone would cal them assaulty".But maybe the Russian TOZ 16 might be considerd such as it is a box loaded 4 shot bolt action with a AK style folding stock.

jb88

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

There is actually a way to appease fears about restricted shotguns not falling into the wrong hands etc bs. Box mags..Without the box mag the gun is a awkward single shot shotgun. As said before I firmly belive the CS can issue an endorsement that an unrestriced shotgun could be converted on the range to a multi shot restricted gun for the purpose of a competition on a set date.If they can endorse as to when and where M1 carbines can be used in gallery competitions why not shotguns?

Hi Griz not aware of any compulsory endorsements on where and when you can use M1 Carbines, you can ask to have some put in, as I have, but there are instances of where there are no restrictions other than the norm for restricted licence holders

jb88

The Phoenix 100/200 yard shotgun competition 2016 was one by a competitor with a box magazine and scoped semi automatic shotgun. When you are consistently hitting the 5 ring with a slug at 200 yards, does anyone really care what your gun looks like as long as it functions well and you win.

That competitor won by a country mile by the way. Saga could be the way forward ;-)

turismo2142 wrote: »

Grizz. The point I make is that said ten round box mag is more "assaulty" looking and likely to go down even worse with the uninformed.

Don't think mags suit shotguns quite that well anyways.

Anyways, box mags are far slower than a well drilled/practiced double/quad finger/thumb load into a tube mag. That's why you'll never see them used in competitions.

;-p

clivej

jb88 wrote: »

The Phoenix 100/200 yard shotgun competition 2016 was one by a competitor with a box magazine and scoped semi automatic shotgun. When you are consistently hitting the 5 ring with a slug at 200 yards, does anyone really care what your gun looks like as long as it functions well and you win.

That competitor won by a country mile by the way. Saga could be the way forward ;-)

Feck off he only beat me by 5 or 6 points. And me with the €20 red dot Reflex sight on the Mossberg Maverick 88, 24" 7+1. A cheap & cheerful shotgun that very nearly got the gold medal

Grizzly 45

jb88 wrote: »

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

There is actually a way to appease fears about restricted shotguns not falling into the wrong hands etc bs. Box mags..Without the box mag the gun is a awkward single shot shotgun. As said before I firmly belive the CS can issue an endorsement that an unrestriced shotgun could be converted on the range to a multi shot restricted gun for the purpose of a competition on a set date.If they can endorse as to when and where M1 carbines can be used in gallery competitions why not shotguns?

Hi Griz not aware of any compulsory endorsements on where and when you can use M1 Carbines, you can ask to have some put in, as I have, but there are instances of where there are no restrictions other than the norm for restricted licence holders

Uhmm ask around the few folks that do shoit gallery rifle m1 about the problems of restriction when and where they can shoot...What I am saying is on this..Offer something to get something.

jb88

clivej wrote: »

Feck off he only beat me by 5 or 6 points. And me with the €20 red dot Reflex sight on the Mossberg Maverick 88, 24" 7+1. A cheap & cheerful shotgun that very nearly got the gold medal

Yes and you did look more professional in the approach a valiant effort for the first timer.

Well done

jb88

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Uhmm ask around the few folks that do shoit gallery rifle m1 about the problems of restriction when and where they can shoot...What I am saying is on this..Offer something to get something.

So the restrictions are not really of any consequence. Would it shock you to hear that I actually asked for mine. Also I know all those guys we all got them at the same time. Those of us who use them for Gallery that is. I dont understand your willingness to compromise.

Two seperate licences. Two seperate criteria as I was told by a former CS.
No two restricted licences are linked.
Each licence is treated on an individual basis. Im actually in this exact process right now :-) I will let you know how it goes. 3 weeks into a restricted shotgun application.

Grizzly 45

jb88 wrote: »

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Uhmm ask around the few folks that do shoit gallery rifle m1 about the problems of restriction when and where they can shoot...What I am saying is on this..Offer something to get something.

So the restrictions are not really of any consequence. Would it shock you to hear that I actually asked for mine. Also I know all those guys we all got them at the same time. Those of us who use them for Gallery that is. I dont understand your willingness to compromise.

Two seperate licences. Two seperate criteria as I was told by a former CS.
No two restricted licences are linked.
Each licence is treated on an individual basis. Im actually in this exact process right now :-) I will let you know how it goes. 3 weeks into a restricted shotgun application.

Well,not being inclined to pay for you legal types second mortage all the time,and contary to a precived "fight da power and fuk da man"image..I do try and negoiate as any same person does to get something.That can usualy mean a compromise on both parties to get something.
No two restricted liscenses are linked.....Righhttt...We proved that to the contary enough times in Limerick DC.
But do keep us updated.Am rooting for you whatever way you get there.Its no fun being the trail blazer thats fordure.

Sparks

As said before I firmly belive the CS can issue an endorsement that an unrestriced shotgun could be converted on the range to a multi shot restricted gun for the purpose of a competition on a set date.

I genuinely don't see how - the two kinds of licences aren't subset and superset, they're distinct and seperate. You can't get an endorsement on an unrestricted licence that makes it into a restricted licence temporarily, there's nothing in the Act that gives the CS the legal authority to do that even if he granted the original unrestricted licence himself (which isn't to say he couldn't write it down on a bit of paper, but it would have as much legal authority as monopoly money has status as legal tender).

Grizzly 45

Was thinking about this 4 shot minimum problem with the unrestricted guns.There is away around it .Means modifying the rules slightly until we get more people involved.
START Load three shots . FIRE one at first target.Speed reload into the magazine.Continue string.Speed reloading can be done by simply holding an extra shell in your weak hand andfeeding it one handed into the mag.
Some gun types might allow you to "ghost load"as well. IOW There is a round on the lifter and one in the chamber and 2 in the mag.IOW it is possible in theory to do this with a 3 shot unrestricted gun rule variation permitting.
Next problem are the slugs....