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Walls, bathrooms, boilers, stoves, solar, confusion!!
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03-11-2016 12:05pm#1Hey folks,
I'm helping my friend who has just bought a house with the planning of everything. I've no real experience in any of this stuff other than reading things online and the likes so hoping to get some input here
The house itself is a North facing, end of terrace property and is 71sq meters plus an attic with a 6ft interior peak apex roof (not converted so only has the door in the ceiling and you need a ladder to get up).- My friend would eventually like to get a stove and solar for environmental and energy efficiency reasons.
- There will be 3 people and 3 dogs living in the house initially. My friend hopes to live there without tenants in a few years time so it will just be them and the dogs.
- They would like an upstairs bathroom installed, ideally to be accessible by anyone.
- The cylinder in the hotpress isn't going to last much longer and the plumber has suggested removing it completely and fitting a combi boiler given my friend is wanting to eventually get solar.
- There will need to be 4 hot water points, kitchen, outside tap (for washing dogs), downstairs bathroom and upstairs bathroom.
It's been said there can't be more than one electric shower in the house due to electricity restrictions so this is why combi boiler was suggested, to provide instant hot water at any of the 4 points and then later as solar is introduced, this can be used to power the combi boiler etc.
Is this a good solution? I think the suggested solar set up is to use Photovoltaic (PV), so if this can then later be retro fitted to the combi boiler, it sounds like the best solution.
I've attached plans I drew up with some online tool as best as I could do the measurements I took.
The new bathroom in red is my suggestion as to where it would be best. It would require the double window to be blocked on one half, unless PP was sought and granted to remove it and put in a single window, but I don't think this is necessary as you won't see it from the inside if the glass is fully frosted anyway. Also the window is a PVC double pane one so you wouldn't even realise there's another half of it behind the piece filled in and tiled over.
Downstairs, the idea is to remove the diving wall between sitting room and kitche and only have the chimney remain. A stove would eventually go in here and from my research on stoves, I've been told the best set up is to get a good Clearview stove without a back boiler and to use the gas boiler to heat rads and water and then the stove to heat the ambience. Would anyone know what power stove would be good for this house? If the wall is getting done now, I'm wondering is it possible to prepare the chimney for the stove now, but to still use it as an open fire until a stove and flu can be afforded and that when it can be afforded, no further building work will be required and it will just be a case of fitting it straight in?
Does this sound like a decent enough set up? Can anyone see any problems with the ideas and the plans (especially the new bathroom upstairs)?
There's a good bit of work to do in the house, but it all has to be done on a budget, so phased out over a few months/years.
There's 20 days left to go until they move out of the current rented house and need to live in this house, so my suggestion was (this was an email I sent them):
1) Install combi boiler
2) Remove hotpress cyclinder, open up hotpress for storage
3) remove unnecessary piping in hotpress and associated areas
4) remove tank in attic (at least the old metal one, cut it up and take it down for sure, maybe best to leave plastic one there, but maybe it can come down and pipes be disconnected too as there are some pipes kinda just hanging in the air beside it up in hotpress), but you don't REALLY need the space up there so much at the mo?
5) remove gas pipes in fireplace (they were visible after I opened it) and trailing around kitchen floor (this will leave area clear for knocking down wall)
6) knock down wall, support floors above. Hide beams if possible and not so much more expensive (quote of €200 definitely worth it).
7) prepare chimney for a stove, no point spending money on a fancy fireplace now and then having to knock more stuff down later for a stove and replaster etc. If you can still light a fire there until you save for a stove, cool, if not, maybe radiators ok for now? The requirements for a stove are slightly different than a fireplace, but I think best to prepare it for a stove, get it looking nice and then when you have $ for a stove, it should just be a case of fitting the stove and not needing to do any building work, replastering etc.
8) Look into cost of adding insulation to interior walls for sound and heat
9) take up carpet on stairs, sand original staircase
10) take up carpet from landing and bedrooms - check feasibility of just using original floorboards, could look nice just sanded, no need to put down new laminate just yet?
11) once wall knocked down and chimney done (and wall insulation decided on) and floors upstairs decided on, then do rest of decorating upstairs (really just needs painting!), in sitting room and kitchen.
12) For kitchen, no need to worry about floors, tiles and wood fine for now, a simple transition would make it look fine, ideas here: https://www.google.ie/search?q=tile+to+wooden+floor+transition&client=firefox-b-ab&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwixhfixoozQAhXJIcAKHSA_BVwQ_AUICCgB&biw=2144&bih=1061&dpr=0.9
13) redo downstairs bathroom
14) MOVE IN
I think the cost of all the above, if you can get a free bathroom suite (another friend is replacing theirs) would be:
3K for boiler and plumbing?
1.5K for wall knock down and chimney prep?
1K for insulation board on all walls maybe? your dad can plaster it all after it's put up?
€500 for downstairs bathroom fit, move toilet drain etc
The reason I'm suggesting doing the wall now is because they might (or probably will) need to rip up the floor in your room to put the steel in, so no point getting floor down before doing the wall? there may also be pipes and cables that will need to be chased elsewhere if there's anything in the way, which would mean ripping up more of the floor, then you're going to have to move allllll the funiture and everything else somewhere while the work is getting done, you'll probably need to repaint the walls and will have dust everywhere. It's the messiest job. The bathroom upstairs will be a much cleaner job and won't really affect anything else in the house, so in this case, I think 1/1.5K to spend now on the wall and chimney should be a priority.
Later....
Live in place, see how you are all coping with one bathroom and with it being downstairs. If it's a problem, then upstairs bathroom will be a priority.
If it's going ok, maybe you'd rather invest in a stove before doing the bathroom
Once stove is in, then again, see priority of bathroom or solar panels.
Just on #7 above, the suggestion was removing a few of the front blocks, so it's ready for a stove to sit right into when it can be afforded, but to still use it as an open fire in the mean time. Would the open section at the front mean smoke will be everywhere? The chimney flu itself stars about 800m from ground level, I assume this would need to be brought up in height for a stove to fit in? If this was to be done at a later stage, would it just be a case of removing a few front blocks, bringing the start of the chimney higher and then replastering, or would it be a bigger job?
I know this is a huge amount of text to get through so I hope I don't scare too many people off, but if anyone has any ideas or suggestions, your input would be greatly greatly appreciated 0
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Thanks a lot for the reply. They don't have an engineer or architect.
Out of 4 builders, 3 suggested putting up steel beams to hold the support, 1 said he didn't think it was a supporting wall
One of the 3 who said it could be done with the steel beams is a structural engineer too but he hasn't yet sent on his quote for it.
There's a good bit of free labour and we'll be doing a lot of the decorating etc ourselves, friends of friends for a lot of the work too. The bathroom upstairs and knocking down the wall are being quoted on from people not connected in any way, so it would be going with the best quote/most professional in this case.0 -
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Thanks a lot for the reply. The block laying is over a 73m perimeter wall, so I was thinking it might be quicker than say, laying block of a extension wall or something like that, but really, I've no clue
I checked a few youtube videos and it doesn't look too difficult, I mean, just to extend it up a layer, I'm sure it takes a lot of skill to get a wall structurally sound from the ground up, but if the wall is already there and it's just to put an extra layer on top, maybe some DIY would do it and if there's a 2m limit, it may actually just be the one layer going up so 150 blocks.
When you say double everything, do you mean EVERYTHING? I mean if the plumber has outlined in pretty good detail what they'll be doing, and the wall removal is just one wall, it should be close enough to the estimates, I'd hope? :eek: I mean to doubl the plumbing quote of 4,300 would mean 8,600 for new heating system with existing pipe work in a 3 bed, seems madness?0 -
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Thanks a lot for the reply. The block laying is over a 73m perimeter wall, so I was thinking it might be quicker than say, laying block of a extension wall or something like that, but really, I've no clue I checked a few youtube videos and it doesn't look too difficult, I mean, just to extend it up a layer, I'm sure it takes a lot of skill to get a wall structurally sound from the ground up, but if the wall is already there and it's just to put an extra layer on top, maybe some DIY would do it and if there's a 2m limit, it may actually just be the one layer going up so 150 blocks.
When you say double everything, do you mean EVERYTHING? I mean if the plumber has outlined in pretty good detail what they'll be doing, and the wall removal is just one wall, it should be close enough to the estimates, I'd hope? :eek: I mean to doubl the plumbing quote of 4,300 would mean 8,600 for new heating system with existing pipe work in a 3 bed, seems madness?
Sorry I meant double everything you have estimated, and that should give you a small contingency. Your biggest issue is definitely time, you wont get lads to fall in like you think you will, especially with small jobs.
While your assumptions regarding block work on a boundary wall being easier that a cavity wall on an extension is somewhat correct, these is no way even an experienced block layer will do an average of 1 block every 1.5 mins for 8 hours including setting up etc. With everything set-up a lad would be all out to do 200 blocks a day unless he was totally kicking them into place. Also I suspect this is not going to be a plastered wall therefore will need to be pointed both sides, will cost 10-20 extra a block and will take much longer.0 -
Thanks again for the info. Unfortunately the budget just isn't there to double everything for them, so they'd kinda be counting on keeping it pretty close to the estimates
Sorry, totally ignorant to this, what do you mean pointed each side? Each side of what? And do you mean 10-20cent extra per block?
I've attached a photo of the wall, terrible photo, sorry, but you can make it out, I see it's 7 blocks high right now, if the blocks are 440x215x100, then 7 x 215 is just over 1500, 9x215 is 1935, so maybe 2 more layers would be just under 2m after all!0 -
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Thanks again for the info. Unfortunately the budget just isn't there to double everything for them, so they'd kinda be counting on keeping it pretty close to the estimates
Sorry, totally ignorant to this, what do you mean pointed each side? Each side of what? And do you mean 10-20cent extra per block?
I've attached a photo of the wall, terrible photo, sorry, but you can make it out, I see it's 7 blocks high right now, if the blocks are 440x215x100, then 7 x 215 is just over 1500, 9x215 is 1935, so maybe 2 more layers would be just under 2m after all!
Well ill put it this way to you, having unrealistic estimates wont make the job any cheaper, some items may just have to wait if you dont have the budget. Pointed work is where the block layer will need to rake out the joints so they presentable like a brick joint, from your pic it looks like pointed work, id imagine you'll pay €1.20 ish per block to lay those depending where in the country you are (which you have prob said in previous posts, I cant remember sorry)0 -
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Hey folks, just an update, on knocking down the wall diving sitting room and kitchen, the plan is said to be:
"Metal beam will be on concrete pads.
Concrete pads will be on the external wall and chimney. "
Does this sound ok? We were told elsewhere that it should be metal supports for the metal beam to sit on at the external wall and chimney, is a concrete pad ok for the same purpose?
Also, with building the wall, it's only going to be 43 meters now as one wall is kinda high enough at about 180 and the neighbours on the other side of that wall had trees growing along side of it and they think the trees weakened the wall, so best not to put another two layers on top.
Anyway, we were told for 43 meters x 2 layers, it'd be 195 4" blocks by roadstone, but they aren't allowed tell us how much sand and cement is required. I asked could they give a rough guide and they said 500kg of sand and 3/4 bags of cement. Does this sound like it should do?
Any feedback appreciated 0 -
Hey folks, just an update, on knocking down the wall diving sitting room and kitchen, the plan is said to be:
"Metal beam will be on concrete pads.
Concrete pads will be on the external wall and chimney. "
Does this sound ok? We were told elsewhere that it should be metal supports for the metal beam to sit on at the external wall and chimney, is a concrete pad ok for the same purpose?
Anyway, we were told for 43 meters x 2 layers, it'd be 195 4" blocks by roadstone, but they aren't allowed tell us how much sand and cement is required. I asked could they give a rough guide and they said 500kg of sand and 3/4 bags of cement. Does this sound like it should do?
Any feedback appreciated
Structural and fire safety questions.
Your engineers should be advising here.0 -
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No engineers have been hired for any of this unfortunately. In hindsight, it's probably something that should have been looked into first, but the only structural thing was the interior wall which my friend wasn't even sure about until recently.
I don't think their budget allows for an engineer if they want the other work done, although I've no idea how much an engineer would charge to view plans and view the finished work.
I was able to speak to my uncle who's a retired Architectural Technician. I'll speak to him properly later, but he did advise that if you're bringing the wall up above 1.5 meters you'd need piers (peers?), or it'll be at risk in strong winds. 0 -
No engineers have been hired for any of this unfortunately. In hindsight, it's probably something that should have been looked into first, but the only structural thing was the interior wall which my friend wasn't even sure about until recently.
I don't think their budget allows for an engineer if they want the other work done, although I've no idea how much an engineer would charge to view plans and view the finished work.
I was able to speak to my uncle who's a retired Architectural Technician. I'll speak to him properly later, but he did advise that if you're bringing the wall up above 1.5 meters you'd need piers (peers?), or it'll be at risk in strong winds.
Yep, sounds like you have a few structural items to address. Will "your friend" need a compliance cert in the future?
If so, how will they get one of the works were not seen?
You have structural steel bearing questions, the steel has to be fire rated as it carry the load of the floor above, it also penetrates a chimney breast. There are strict regulations around this, TDG Part A and TGD Part B namely.
Have you got any pictures of where the steel is been erected? I know you say an external wall, is it the party wall? (Shared with next door)?0 -
Thanks for the continued input
I had to google what a compliance cert is. From what I understand, it's if there's planning permission required for any building work, that you need to get reports on how it was built and if it followed the granted permission etc?
I don't think there's PP required on any of the work being done. It's all internal if that makes a difference?
The wall being knocked down is being supported with a steel beam from the back wall to the chimney and then from the chimney to the wall between the kitchen and bathroom. The gap to be removed here is only about 1m, so I believe it doesn't need the same support as the chimney to external wall gap.
The only work that has been done to the party wall is some gyproc soundboard going up.
You can just about see everything in the attached video, the steel beam, the fireplace on the right hand side and then where the wall has been removed and ceiling supported and the back windows.0
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