ICBF Eurostar ratings

The Cuban

Just got my Eurostar report for the beef data scheme. A load of my cows lost stars!!:eek:. Gone from 4 to 3 stars in several cases. One cow in particular I sold a Weanling heifer calf off her last year, 6 months old 260 kgs €1040 yet the cow drops a star!! like wtf
They could at least give a reason behind the ratings but it seems to be a wink and nod Science with ICBF

rangler1

The Cuban wrote: »

Just got my Eurostar report for the beef data scheme. A load of my cows lost stars!!:eek:. Gone from 4 to 3 stars in several cases. One cow in particular I sold a Weanling heifer calf off her last year, 6 months old 260 kgs €1040 yet the cow drops a star!! like wtf
They could at least give a reason behind the ratings but it seems to be a wink and nod Science with ICBF

A cows own performance makes very little difference to her star rating compared with all the information and figures that's coming back from all the animals that are related to her,
It's like aiming at a moving target now to get a 5 star.

charolais0153

A four or five star cow is in the top 40℅ of cows in the country. How are we going to all have 50℅ 4 or 5 star in 2020

Peter90

The original ratings where based on predictions reliability was low especially in young cows which had few offspring, the new ratings from genotype samples that where send off are supposedly more reliable, also another way they can lose stars is half brother/half sister performance, I bought 9 heifers from one herd in April with view to breeding, 5 five 4 four stars, all dropped to 2 & 3 stars I rang up was told was likely due to the bull performance dropped their half sisters/half brothers the year before may have killed out poorly in the mean time

High bike

Ok here's one for ye.I have twin sim heifers both 5 star one with a replacement value of 113e and the other 111e,why in gods name don't they have the same values?????????

patsy_mccabe

High bike wrote: »

Ok here's one for ye.I have twin sim heifers both 5 star one with a replacement value of 113e and the other 111e,why in gods name don't they have the same values?????????

One is older than the other.
Seriously though, were they genotyped?

rangler1

High bike wrote: »

Ok here's one for ye.I have twin sim heifers both 5 star one with a replacement value of 113e and the other 111e,why in gods name don't they have the same values?????????

If there wasn't genomics tests done it'd be down to their individual growth rates.
When their progeny comes along, their values will change again

High bike

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

One is older than the other.
Seriously though, were they genotyped?

Dont even know which is older Patsie was at a wedding when she calved😀yes both genotyped but even if they werent surely they should be identical?

High bike

rangler1 wrote: »

If there wasn't genomics tests done it'd be down to their individual growth rates.
When their progeny comes along, their values will change again

I know when they have progeny they could change but at the moment they should be the same as there was no weights recorded for them as calves???

rangler1

Without genotyping, it's assumed that half of the good genes come from each of the parents, genotyping can tell different.
That's the way i understand it anyway.
Genotyping can give them different values, probably where the difference in yours has come from.
Hope they hold their 5 star rating

High bike

rangler1 wrote: »

Without genotyping, it's assumed that half of the good genes come from each of the parents, genotyping can tell different.
That's the way i understand it anyway.
Genotyping can give them different values, probably where the difference in yours has come from.
Hope they hold their 5 star rating

is in the lap of tha gods as far as I can see,as a comrade heifer dropped from 5* to 3* after I ai'd her:mad:

rangler1

High bike wrote: »

is in the lap of tha gods as far as I can see,as a comrade heifer dropped from 5* to 3* after I ai'd her:mad:

I'd still be breeding pedigree sheep only for the same feckin stars. total bull****
A presentation at the ploughing by sheep ireland revealed that the difference between lambs out of a 1 star and a 5 star rams was 1kg at weaning!!!!!!

charolais0153

rangler1 wrote: »

I'd still be breeding pedigree sheep only for the same feckin stars. total bull****
A presentation at the ploughing by sheep ireland revealed that the difference between lambs out of a 1 star and a 5 star rams was 1kg at weaning!!!!!!

Its just that over 100 lambs its worth 200£ more but its still stupid no doubt

Nechtan

High bike wrote: »

Ok here's one for ye.I have twin sim heifers both 5 star one with a replacement value of 113e and the other 111e,why in gods name don't they have the same values?????????

If they've been genotyped it's down to them having different DNA. It's possible for full siblings (even twins) to have very different DNA which means it's actually possible for twins to have different star ratings never mind replacement values.

patsy_mccabe

Ya exactly it's down to different DNA . 0nly identical twins have the same DNA.

High bike

Nechtan wrote: »

If they've been genotyped it's down to them having different DNA. It's possible for full siblings (even twins) to have very different DNA which means it's actually possible for twins to have different star ratings never mind replacement values.

Every day's a school day,didn't know that so that's prob the reason

Farrell

Has anyone DNA genotyped their stock, apart from BDGS, see it can be done for €22

blue5000

Farrell wrote: »

Has anyone DNA genotyped their stock, apart from BDGS, see it can be done for €22

I'd say some people did it if they had cases of late registration a few years back or if they had a high percentage of twin births;)

Farrell

blue5000 wrote: »

Farrell wrote: »

Has anyone DNA genotyped their stock, apart from BDGS, see it can be done for €22

I'd say some people did it if they had cases of late registration a few years back or if they had a high percentage of twin births;)

I've a few heifers where the mother broke next door or the sire wasn't given when the dam was purchased, though of getting DNA done & was wondering if it was worth the effort, as sure may not be on file

croot

Farrell wrote: »

I've a few heifers where the mother broke next door ...........& was wondering if it was worth the effort, as sure may not be on file

It didn't work for me. My heifer was done on the standard test last year but is still showing up as a missing sire. The only bull it could have been is a neighbour's and his bull is on the database but it hasn't showed up.

barnaman

Waste of time IMO as not always show up true bull take AS12 I used him but will not show up. Not all bulls may have a DNA sample taken

bogman_bass

barnaman wrote: »

Waste of time IMO as not always show up true bull take AS12 I used him but will not show up. Not all bulls may have a DNA sample taken

Icbf have genotype for AS12 anyways

barnaman

Must be my AI man then came back SI alright but sire unkown

Farrell

croot wrote: »

It didn't work for me. My heifer was done on the standard test last year but is still showing up as a missing sire. The only bull it could have been is a neighbour's and his bull is on the database but it hasn't showed up.

Did they give her an evaluation based upon her genetic makeup or is it find parentage & base on that?

patsy_mccabe

The ICBF search page is fierce handy at the Mart buying breeding stock. Just input the cow/heifer tag number and you'll know a fair bit about the animal. A lot of pedigree registered cows with poor star ratings turning up at the marts. Fine looking animals but poor replacement values.
Spotted a nice looking Simmental heifer with very good colouring but when I looked her up she was mostly char breeding. You couldn't tell that by looking at her.

blue5000

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

The ICBF search page is fierce handy at the Mart buying breeding stock. Just input the cow/heifer tag number and you'll know a fair bit about the animal. A lot of pedigree registered cows with poor star ratings turning up at the marts. Fine looking animals but poor replacement values.
Spotted a nice looking Simmental heifer with very good colouring but when I looked her up she was mostly char breeding. You couldn't tell that by looking at her.

If this ICBF stuff keeps up and all the bad pedigree cattle are culled we could have French farmers coming over here in 10 years time looking to buy our hybrid vigour 5 star mongrels of cows

oneten

Unlikely they'll be looking to buy back their low milk , low fertility , 5 star looneys.
How do bulls that're minus 7 and worse for milk possibly make the replacement grade ?

patsy_mccabe

oneten wrote: »

.... How do bulls that're minus 7 and worse for milk possibly make the replacement grade ?

Milk only makes up 18% of the Replacement Index. You could have cows/heifers going through the ring, with 5 stars showing up on the board. They mightn't have a drop of milk and be stone mad too, yet look great and make big money. It could be a year before you calf them down and find out what they are really like.

oneten

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Milk only makes up 18% of the Replacement Index.

I understand the math, its the logic behind the math , that's the headscratcher.I know what I look for in a heifer that I am going to keep ,and feel free to disagree

1 Milk - Doesn't matter about anything else if she cant rear a calf
2 Fertility -1 calf per year every year
3 Docility - Had enough of evil ***** at calving , and weanlings that think they can fit through a letterbox

rangler1

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

The ICBF search page is fierce handy at the Mart buying breeding stock. Just input the cow/heifer tag number and you'll know a fair bit about the animal. A lot of pedigree registered cows with poor star ratings turning up at the marts. Fine looking animals but poor replacement values.
Spotted a nice looking Simmental heifer with very good colouring but when I looked her up she was mostly char breeding. You couldn't tell that by looking at her.

If ICBF are dependable why are farmers not paying the tag levy, is it just meanness, a bit shortsighted tbh for the price of a night out to have that sort of information at hand

oneten

rangler1 wrote: »

If ICBF are dependable why are farmers not paying the tag levy, is it just meanness, a bit shortsighted tbh for the price of a night out to have that sort of information at hand

Are you gone soft in the head ? or maybe" dependable" means something different to ex IFA men.How many men have bought 5 star bulls and bred replacements to have icbf move the goalposts and end up with heifers that don't qualify for the scheme.
If you're going to tout yourself as the greatest thing in cattle breeding then get it right

whelan2

Icbf are also getting 50 cent per ai serve and 87 cent per cow milk recorded. Losing tag levy shouldn't affect them too much

rangler1

oneten wrote: »

Are you gone soft in the head ? or maybe" dependable" means something different to ex IFA men.How many men have bought 5 star bulls and bred replacements to have icbf move the goalposts and end up with heifers that don't qualify for the scheme.
If you're going to tout yourself as the greatest thing in cattle breeding then get it right

,

Will you get over yourself and read the posts again, you haven't a clue,
Mc Cabe was praising the information and I replied saying if.
As i say you haven't a clue, a share of the rubbish information is coming from the farmers and breeders themselves.

oneten

rangler1 wrote: »

, is it just meanness, a bit shortsighted tbh for the price of a night out to have that sort of information at hand

This is the bit that that shows your hand , sneaky wee dig.

patsy_mccabe

Anyway, back on topic. Noticed yesterday at Ennis Mart that only some of the cows/heifers had their star rating shown on the board. Does the seller request it to be shown beforehand or is it to do with being in HerdPlus?

greysides

oneten wrote: »

Are you gone soft in the head ? or maybe" dependable" means something different to ex IFA men

rangler1 wrote: »

As i say you haven't a clue...

Mod: oneten and Rangler1, cop yourselves on! This manner of discussion is only going to ruin a good thread.

tanko

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Anyway, back on topic. Noticed yesterday at Ennis Mart that only some of the cows/heifers had their star rating shown on the board. Does the seller request it to be shown beforehand or is it to do with being in HerdPlus?

I could be wrong but i think the star ratings only show on the board if the animal is in a herdplus herd.

rangler1

oneten wrote: »

This is the bit that that shows your hand , sneaky wee dig.

bit close to the truth was it.
Withdrawing funding and rubbish information won't help solve it's problems



The mods have gotten fed up of tit-for-tat retaliation. If you don't report the 'tit' then you're going to be caught for the 'tat'.

The Cuban

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Anyway, back on topic. Noticed yesterday at Ennis Mart that only some of the cows/heifers had their star rating shown on the board. Does the seller request it to be shown beforehand or is it to do with being in HerdPlus?

Are you fully signed up to Herdplus? if so is it worth the money?

patsy_mccabe

The Cuban wrote: »

Are you fully signed up to Herdplus? if so is it worth the money?

No, I never signed up. More on principle than anything. Why should I have to pay to access information about my own animals, most of which they derived from info I gave them in the first place. :rolleyes:

charolais0153

oneten wrote: »

I understand the math, its the logic behind the math , that's the headscratcher.I know what I look for in a heifer that I am going to keep ,and feel free to disagree

1 Milk - Doesn't matter about anything else if she cant rear a calf
2 Fertility -1 calf per year every year
3 Docility - Had enough of evil ***** at calving , and weanlings that think they can fit through a letterbox

Your favourite type of cow is a.....











Jersey:D

oneten

charolais0153 wrote: »

Your favourite type of cow is a.....











Jersey:D

:eek:

Farrell

oneten wrote: »

I understand the math, its the logic behind the math , that's the headscratcher.I know what I look for in a heifer that I am going to keep ,and feel free to disagree

1 Milk - Doesn't matter about anything else if she cant rear a calf
2 Fertility -1 calf per year every year
3 Docility - Had enough of evil ***** at calving , and weanlings that think they can fit through a letterbox

Personally I think there's too much emphasis on calving compared to other traits.
For instance some terminal bulls, could be 5 Star for docility, Carcass weight & confirmation & be good sellers in weanling ring, yet be only 1 star due to calving ease

blue5000

Farrell wrote: »

Personally I think there's too much emphasis on calving compared to other traits.
For instance some terminal bulls, could be 5 Star for docility, Carcass weight & confirmation & be good sellers in weanling ring, yet be only 1 star due to calving ease

A 5 star dead calf is still a dead calf.:(

bogman_bass

rangler1 wrote: »

If ICBF are dependable why are farmers not paying the tag levy, is it just meanness, a bit shortsighted tbh for the price of a night out to have that sort of information at hand

I think it is meanness Farmers are more than happy to give out about 50c a head of a levy but will happily hand over money to every lad that comes into the yard selling snake oil

oneten

Farrell wrote: »

Personally I think there's too much emphasis on calving compared to other traits.
For instance some terminal bulls, could be 5 Star for docility, Carcass weight & confirmation & be good sellers in weanling ring, yet be only 1 star due to calving ease

I think calving ease is more important for those working off farm more so than full timers who are there to pull a calf if a cow is under pressure to calve it herself, and can use those harder calved bulls without any real issues , you'll still get the odd one to test your jack but that's swings and roundabouts

whelan2

oneten wrote: »

I understand the math, its the logic behind the math , that's the headscratcher.I know what I look for in a heifer that I am going to keep ,and feel free to disagree

1 Milk - Doesn't matter about anything else if she cant rear a calf
2 Fertility -1 calf per year every year
3 Docility - Had enough of evil ***** at calving , and weanlings that think they can fit through a letterbox

Had a lad here a few weeks ago bought 2 high scc cows as his sucklers are calving down with no milk. That would be a total head wrecker. Without the milk you have nothing

patsy_mccabe

whelan2 wrote: »

Had a lad here a few weeks ago bought 2 high scc cows as his sucklers are calving down with no milk. That would be a total head wrecker. Without the milk you have nothing

Would he get rid of those cows then or would be put them back in calf. Spotted a lot of second callers in the Mart recently. All looked like they were being culled because they had no milk.

whelan2

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Would he get rid of those cows then or would be put them back in calf. Spotted a lot of second callers in the Mart recently. All looked like they were being culled because they had no milk.

I don't know. Limousines he said they were

rangler1

whelan2 wrote: »

Icbf are also getting 50 cent per ai serve and 87 cent per cow milk recorded. Losing tag levy shouldn't affect them too much

It'd amount to €500000+ all the same,
Farmers would be foolish to pay the levy if not all are paying. let them do without it now and increase the charges elsewhere....at least everyones paying the same that way

Just edited to say the tag levy came to €850000 in 2014

croot

ICBF have only really started providing a service to suckler farmers in the last few years other than what dept of ag were paying them for.

When did the tag levy come in for tags again?