Employer refusing annual leave

Parachutes

Hi guys,

Just a quick query regarding annual leave, I have surgery coming up with a weeks recovery time and my employer is refusing to allow me take the time off using my holidays as it's medical, implying that it has to be certified sick leave.

I'm working 20 hours a week at the moment and I'm not one to take holidays regularly, This year I've only taken 1 or 2 half days for holidays and have upwards of a fortnight of days left (the excuse is that it's coming up to Christmas and the company is really strapped for hours) I'm just wondering what are my rights in this regard as I would really not like to take sick leave (Haven't called in sick ever) even if it is certified.

These are full day holidays and during the week I only work half shifts so in total I'd be missing 4 days.

The procedure is elective if that changes anything.

Yenwod

Why do you want to take them as Annual instead of Sick? Do you think taking them as sick is going to have an impact on you?

It could be your boss is being nice and thinks its madness for you to waste your annual leave entitlement on something like that. I have had bosses like that in the past

nikkibikki

Well one reason would be for income. You'd get paid if it was annual leave. Most places don't pay for sick leave.

_Brian

I think you'll have no options here.

An employer can refuse any holiday request if it doesn't suit the business. They can also refuse to grant holidays when it's known the employee is sick unfit for work.

Many employers will allow this but it's not something you can push for.

davo10

It really shouldn't make a difference to your employer, but he/she could not force you to take annual leave while out sick. The only reason I can see for his stance is that the company closes at Christmas and you have to retain holiday leave for that period.

_Brian

davo10 wrote: »

It really shouldn't make a difference to your employer, but he/she could not force you to take annual leave while out sick. The only reason I can see for his stance is that the company closes at Christmas and you have to retain holiday leave for that period.

It does make a difference, a full weeks pay!

BabySlam

_Brian wrote: »

It does make a difference, a full weeks pay!

The holidays will be available to take or if impossible to take will be paid.

TonyStark

_Brian wrote: »

davo10 wrote: »

It really shouldn't make a difference to your employer, but he/she could not force you to take annual leave while out sick. The only reason I can see for his stance is that the company closes at Christmas and you have to retain holiday leave for that period.

It does make a difference, a full weeks pay!

Not quite, you get benefit from the state for illnesses over 3 days from your PRSI. It's feck all, but there is a form at work for this.

dev100

TonyStark wrote:

Not quite, you get benefit from the state for illnesses over 3 days from your PRSI. It's feck all, but there is a form at work for this.

Is it not 5 days now ? Think it was changed in the budget a year ago or maybe I'm wrong

afatbollix

The most important question here is do you get sick pay?


I had surgery this year and my boss made me cancel my holiday. Think it was company policy. But I've just seen this on citizens advice.


If you are ill during your annual leave and have a medical certificate for the days you were ill, these sick days will not be counted as annual leave days. Instead, you can use these days as annual leave at a later date. An employer cannot require you to take annual leave for a certified period of illness.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/sick_leave.html

PCX

Is there any chance the employer might think that you want to take annual leave at that time for any other reason?

Perhaps, when you told him about it, he wasn't 100% sure that you weren't just making an excuse to get around a ban on taking annual leave during that period. He could have thought that if he makes you realise that you'll have to produce a sick cert you might suddenly change your mind about the surgery if it wasn't real in the first place.

Yenwod

dev100 wrote: »

Is it not 5 days now ? Think it was changed in the budget a year ago or maybe I'm wrong

Nearly...6 days which is very tough for people who don't have a sick pay scheme in work.

Mrs OBumble

I used to work for a multi-national who argued that annual leave is for rest and recreation, and you cannot do that if you are sick, so would refuse to let you use annual leave if you were sick.

It's dubious reasoning IMHO, the financial stress of being unpaid for the first six days and only getting a small payment after (and then only if you qualify) that means that most people cannot afford to do anything recreational during their annual leave. But it keeps HR types happy.

The way around it is to not mention the surgery and recovery at all, and just apply for annual leave at that time. This won't work if they won't usually grant annual leave at that time, but usually does otherwise.

pilly

It may be because if company policy is that annual leave is not allowed around that period then if he gives it to you he may open the floodgates?

Spanish Eyes

Why did you mention the medical issue at all? Should have just applied for leave to cover it.

jippo nolan

Yenwod wrote: »

Nearly...6 days which is very tough for people who don't have a sick pay scheme in work.

You can thank Joan Burton for that!

pilly

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Why did you mention the medical issue at all? Should have just applied for leave to cover it.

Because annual leave is not allowed at the time.

carrieb

Raging on your behalf that you mentioned it at all and didn't just book the holidays. Am also presuming that maybe holidays aren't allowed around this certain time and the fact that it's elective wouldn't go down well if that was the case...
I am also presuming you don't get sick pay in which case it's obvious why you've asked to take holidays.
Sounds like it is at the employers discretion though. Nightmare.

Parachutes

Thanks for all the replies lads.

Yes, I want to take annual leave because I don't get paid sick leave. There's no mandatory time off at Christmas (no days in November or December left for holidays)

Seems mad I can't take my annual leave for whatever I want!

livedadream

Annual leave is considered to be for taking time off from work to relax and unplug. Sick leave is for when your sick or medically unfit for work.

your employer could argue that legally when you are on annual leave if you fall ill you can apply for the annual leave to not count, so he could potentially pay for you the holidays while you are sick, then you could claim back the days saying you have a sick cert and he had to give them back to you, im not sure how it works in terms of the pay but its tricky.

Yenwod

jippo nolan wrote: »

You can thank Joan Burton for that!

Yes and no! It was in the governments plan anyway - she was the scapegoat

pilly

Parachutes wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies lads.

Yes, I want to take annual leave because I don't get paid sick leave. There's no mandatory time off at Christmas (no days in November or December left for holidays)

Seems mad I can't take my annual leave for whatever I want!

To be fair though there are a lot of places that have restrictions on when people can take annual leave depending on peak business times. We've come a long way, it' used to be you HAD to take two weeks off in July/August whether you wanted to go on holidays then or not.

jippo nolan

Yenwod wrote: »

Yes and no! It was in the governments plan anyway - she was the scapegoat

A willing scapegoat!

The_Conductor

Its actually far from unusual to refuse to allow annual leave- if the person is unfit for work and insist on certified sick leave. Even the public sector refuse to allow convalescence from surgery etc- on annual leave (which is an issue for people who have chronic conditions- as all days count towards their sick leave (including Saturdays and Sundays) regardless of whether or not they normally work on those days.

Its pretty much the norm- that you are not allowed take annual leave- if you are unfit for work- some companies may bend the rules (may even habitually bend the rules)- it is not however the norm that it is allowable.

Mrs OBumble

The_Conductor wrote: »

Its actually far from unusual to refuse to allow annual leave- if the person is unfit for work and insist on certified sick leave. Even the public sector refuse to allow convalescence from surgery etc- on annual leave (which is an issue for people who have chronic conditions- as all days count towards their sick leave (including Saturdays and Sundays) regardless of whether or not they normally work on those days.

Its pretty much the norm- that you are not allowed take annual leave- if you are unfit for work- some companies may bend the rules (may even habitually bend the rules)- it is not however the norm that it is allowable.

Which is fine if you have paid sick leave.

But for the majority of workers who don't it's just a source of financial stress which is far worse than most job stress, and it means they cannot afford to do anything relaxing when they do get annual leave.

All the law says is that an employer cannot force an employee to use annual leave when they are sick. It doesnt forbid an employee from choosing one do so.