Airbus - Fumes in Cabin events

Jack1985

Any regular follower of Avherald will spot numerous publications related to Airbus - Fumes in Cabin events and German carriers being involved in the vast majority of incidents.

It's something I do believe crew and especially those operating on Airbus aircraft are becoming increasingly concerned about. Here's two of the latest incidents on the 05/08 and 30/09 of this year involving Germanwings and Lufthansa:

http://avherald.com/h?article=49fd6e9a&opt=0
http://avherald.com/h?article=49fd68c7&opt=0

What slightly startled me was a statement from Germany's BFU which read;

The occurrence of Sep 30th 2016 was reported to the BFU. After assessment of available information the occurrence was not rated a serious incident or accident according to the rulework applicable. For this reason no investigation of the occurrence was initiated

There are plenty of other incidents, also occurring (although not as regularly) on Boeing aircraft also registered with German carriers. One of interest here being;

http://avherald.com/h?article=45fa1f5b/0000&opt=0

In the above you'll note the UK's Transport Ministry conducted a study into fume related incidents, being unable to find substantive facts regarding fume events. I myself have been involved in a fume related incident, but as a passenger. In 2007 on a flight with MyTravel from Faro to Dublin booked with Airtours at the time.

The aircraft pushed back and immediately a dirty sock, also described as dirty nappy smell entered the cabin during engine start - The safety demo was suspended and the aircraft returned to stand where the smell dissipated rapidly. I remember at the time the APU was given as the reason for the issue, we eventually departed without issue however on final approach to Dublin the smell started to reoccur, the flight after arrival was taken out of service and a further rotation delayed until a spare aircraft arrived.

The aircraft in question was a CFM powered A320 although MyTravel at the time (prior to Thomas Cook merger) operated IAE powered A320's. In the company I currently work for we have not had a fume related incident in years (You would be able to count on one hand the entirety of those incidents since the foundation of the company). The last occurring on an A321 in 2009, the frame in question has since left the fleet.

What are peoples opinions on this? Have members here had similar occurrences? I'd be interested in what people think of the BFU's continued reaction of somewhat dismissal of these incidents as of lately. At the end of the day crew are being incapacitated in their duties and some entering long-periods of sick leave.

If those of you are wondering why crew seem to be incapacitated first it is obvious as they exert more energy throughout the flight and this is something the British authorities excepted outright.

Locker10a

This is something I am following carefully, and numourours unions representing pilots and crew are also closing in on, it will be interesting to follow developments

Jack1985

Locker10a wrote: »

This is something I am following carefully, and numourours unions representing pilots and crew are also closing in on, it will be interesting to follow developments

Indeed. My own union only recently discussing this, with a member being assigned a post to it.

Another incident occurring last night on a British Airways A380 from SFO to LHR diverting to Vancouver. 25 taken to hospitals (20 cabin crew, 3 pilots, 2 pax), all since discharged.

http://avherald.com/h?article=49fd405e&opt=0

I suppose a question I have is why are fume related incidents so prominent with German Carriers, for example a search for ''easyJet Fumes'' produces a total of 4 reported incidents since 2011. This being one of the biggest Airbus operators in Europe. While a search for ''Lufthansa Fumes'' produces nearly 30 fumes related incidents with just 1 being on a Boeing operated aircraft since 2011.

Irish Steve

FWIW, there have indeed been a number of Airbus incidents with fumes, but they are more recent, over time, there have been several incidents that have caused long term injury on both 757's and BAE RJ models.

It's somewhat worrying that the BFU seem to be deciding to not investigate some of the incidents that are being reported, it's also significant that there are an unusual number of reports coming from carriers based in Germany. I don't believe that this is related to a maintenance issue, so it's hard to see why there is this apparent distortion in the numbers of reports that are being put into the public domain.

It is a subject that has generated a lot of comment on AVHERALD, and also in the support forum that operates alongside that site. I know that the operator has raised his concerns about these incidents with the BFU, and has not been completely happy with their response.

Time will tell, I suspect that this is not going to go away, and that it will have to be investigated in more depth sooner rather than later

Jack1985

Irish Steve wrote: »

FWIW, there have indeed been a number of Airbus incidents with fumes, but they are more recent, over time, there have been several incidents that have caused long term injury on both 757's and BAE RJ models.

It's somewhat worrying that the BFU seem to be deciding to not investigate some of the incidents that are being reported, it's also significant that there are an unusual number of reports coming from carriers based in Germany. I don't believe that this is related to a maintenance issue, so it's hard to see why there is this apparent distortion in the numbers of reports that are being put into the public domain.

It is a subject that has generated a lot of comment on AVHERALD, and also in the support forum that operates alongside that site. I know that the operator has raised his concerns about these incidents with the BFU, and has not been completely happy with their response.

Time will tell, I suspect that this is not going to go away, and that it will have to be investigated in more depth sooner rather than later

Couldn't agree more, the unusually number of high reports in Germany and the dismissive attitude of the BFU is quite concerning.

cml387

Funny you should say that

martinsvi

hate to be THAT guy, but are we completely dismissing the possibility that in SOME of the incidents some crew members might just be looking for a nice long paid break? Heavily unionized airlines might be a good breeding ground for people pulling stunts and getting away with that. We live in a time where ambulance drivers are scared of planes, flight attendants suffer unprovable "soft tissue" injuries and so on, all to get away from their duties with big fat lumps of money in their pockets .. maybe BFU has suspicion this is happening and because of the actions of the few these incidents might not get the full attention they deserve .. just my 2pc

Stovepipe

It was very common with the BAe 146 but certainly less so with the A320. In a previous life with the 146, we spent a lot of time pulling the air conditioning ducting apart, changing clamps and seals to stop leaks and cleaning out ducts. The APU on the 146 was notorious for it's ability to leak oil and a great deal of time and effort was devoted to cleaning the APU cavity.Incidentally, on all airliners, a great deal of time is spent changing out valves in the air conditioning and pneumatic systems. Maybe someone should stick the boot to the valve manufacturers because of the failure rate of their parts.

murphaph

Lufthansa has had ongoing industrial relations problems with cabin crew for what seems like years now. Make of that what you will.

Locker10a

murphaph wrote: »

Lufthansa has had ongoing industrial relations problems with cabin crew for what seems like years now. Make of that what you will.

Even removing LH from the equation, it is still an interesting trend , I wish airlines were forced to fit test filters to random aircraft that would be analysed by a third party

PukkaStukka

Stovepipe wrote: »

It was very common with the BAe 146 but certainly less so with the A320. In a previous life with the 146, we spent a lot of time pulling the air conditioning ducting apart, changing clamps and seals to stop leaks and cleaning out ducts. The APU on the 146 was notorious for it's ability to leak oil and a great deal of time and effort was devoted to cleaning the APU cavity.Incidentally, on all airliners, a great deal of time is spent changing out valves in the air conditioning and pneumatic systems. Maybe someone should stick the boot to the valve manufacturers because of the failure rate of their parts.

Could never understand the inherently fumey nature of this otherwise nice little aircraft. It's the one and only complaint I would make of them/

As a pun, may I say that I though this plane had in fact four APU's....two under each wing :pac:

Irish Steve

Stovepipe wrote: »

It was very common with the BAe 146 but certainly less so with the A320. In a previous life with the 146, we spent a lot of time pulling the air conditioning ducting apart, changing clamps and seals to stop leaks and cleaning out ducts. The APU on the 146 was notorious for it's ability to leak oil and a great deal of time and effort was devoted to cleaning the APU cavity.Incidentally, on all airliners, a great deal of time is spent changing out valves in the air conditioning and pneumatic systems. Maybe someone should stick the boot to the valve manufacturers because of the failure rate of their parts.

A very good friend of mine used to be very much involved with 146's, and from conversations with him, a number of crew members with several operators were caused harm by oil fumes that entered the cabin. I suspect that the issue is more related to seals in the engines rather than valves, with the result that the air getting into the cabin from bleed air has been polluted with oil that is in places that it's not supposed to be. As to how that oil gets there, I don't have an answer, my suspicion is that it is draining out through seals when the engine is not operating, and pools in the combustion areas and is then blown into the cabin via the air conditioning systems upon startup, but I may be off beam there. I don't see an easy solution, bleed air from the engines is needed to provide pressurisation, and short of designing a device like a car turbo that could provide higher pressure air without using bleed air, there is no easy way to square that circle, and such a device will still need oil to protect the bearings, so the same contamination issues could arise, and it's extra weight to carry permanently without a massive gain.

And yes, I too would wonder at the concerns about the use by union activists of fume issues as a rod to beat the back of management, but if that is the case, those abusing such issues do no favours to the small number of proven cases where crew have been disabled by their exposure to fumes.

Irish Steve

PukkaStukka wrote: »

As a pun, may I say that I though this plane had in fact four APU's....two under each wing :pac:

Actually had 5, but we won't go there today

Jack1985

Irish Steve wrote: »

And yes, I too would wonder at the concerns about the use by union activists of fume issues as a rod to beat the back of management, but if that is the case, those abusing such issues do no favours to the small number of proven cases where crew have been disabled by their exposure to fumes.

Nail on head.

pepe the prawn

A380 with fume issues in recent days

http://avherald.com/h?article=49fd405e&opt=0

PukkaStukka

Found this on AVHerald

http://avherald.com/h?article=4a20760d&opt=0