Brim Bros ceased trading

stecleary

Brim Bros ceased trading today, There goes the hopes of wearable power meters anytime soon.

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/irish-cycling-firm-closes-suddenly-cant-refund-e200k-to-290-investors/

Arthurdaly

That's an expensive little experiment. Guess it's all there in the fine print with regards to refunds but I'd be pretty sore about it. Kickstarter schemes = gambling?

Andalucia

wonder will the wonky stock be given to the kickstarter "investors" or will a renowned Dublin club be using them given connection

how could the fundamental flaws in the design only come to light once in production after the kickstarter campaign was finished? Surely the concept and testing done to date could still be used and there should be some value to the company if offered for sale as an entity for residual value even - questionable series of events here: take the kickstarter funding, the promised delivery date passes and then bang, were gone, tough luck

rollingscone

Arthurdaly wrote: »

That's an expensive little experiment. Guess it's all there in the fine print with regards to refunds but I'd be pretty sore about it. Kickstarter schemes = gambling?

Investing.

Investing = gambling.

People should understand that instead of acting like they thought they were buying a toaster from Arnotts

buffalo

Andalucia wrote: »

wonder will the wonky stock be given to the kickstarter "investors" or will a renowned Dublin club be using them given connection

What's the point in using something that doesn't work?

'oh look, I put out an average of 597W today on my coffee morning spin!"

1bryan

buffalo wrote: »

What's the point in using something that doesn't work?

'oh look, I put out an average of 597W today on my coffee morning spin!"

do you ride for Sky?

godtabh

Andalucia wrote: »

wonder will the wonky stock be given to the kickstarter "investors" or will a renowned Dublin club be using them given connection

how could the fundamental flaws in the design only come to light once in production after the kickstarter campaign was finished? Surely the concept and testing done to date could still be used and there should be some value to the company if offered for sale as an entity for residual value even - questionable series of events here: take the kickstarter funding, the promised delivery date passes and then bang, were gone, tough luck

I'd say it was down to the manufacturing process. Building them by hand they got units that worked. Put them in the mass production and the manufacturing process/QA meant that the were unreliable and to get them to work would require an expensive manufacturing process and push them above their rrp.

smacl

godtabh wrote: »

I'd say it was down to the manufacturing process. Building them by hand they got units that worked. Put them in the mass production and the manufacturing process/QA meant that the were unreliable and to get them to work would require an expensive manufacturing process and push them above their rrp.

Pretty much what I heard. Easy enough to underestimate the huge gap between a prototype that works 90% of the time when properly set-up and robust product ready for retail. Bringing a highly technical product into an already competitive market is no mean feat. Sorry to hear it didn't work out for them.

Lumen

rollingscone wrote: »

Investing.

Investing = gambling.

People should understand that instead of acting like they thought they were buying a toaster from Arnotts

Kickstarter is not an investment platform, it's a combination funding/retail platform where you have neither the prospect of profits nor the promise of goods.

It's a great place for people who hate money.

quozl

That's a real shame. A huge amount of time and effort went in to that - years of work. I'm really sorry for them to see it fail in the end.

TonyStark

quozl wrote: »

That's a real shame. A huge amount of time and effort went in to that - years of work. I'm really sorry for them to see it fail in the end.

Am i reading this correct:

Kickstarter amount raised = €183,133
Indiegogo amount raised = $231,364

Cumulative amount?

They might have been better to license their idea to one o the big boys who could have thrown R&D into it and make it into something that could be sold.

tunney

quozl wrote: »

That's a real shame. A huge amount of time and effort went in to that - years of work. I'm really sorry for them to see it fail in the end.

Its been failing for the last five years.

ford2600

http://www.solocheck.ie/Irish-Company/Brim-Brothers-Limited-459327

http://www.solocheck.ie/Irish-Company/Brim-Brothers-International-Limited-542768



At least when you invest, who might get something as a shareholder after creditors pick over the bones.

What remains of value in this instance I have no idea; patents, intellectual property rights maybe ?

It won't matter if you were a Kickstarter "investor"😀

Alek

ford2600 wrote: »

http://www.solocheck.ie/Irish-Company/Brim-Brothers-International-Limited-542768

This Irish company shares its Eircode with at least 250 other companies.

Does this mean that at least 250 companies are registered under exactly the same physical address? :eek:

mathie

From their website

Over the last 8 years we solved so many of the challenges, and created new technologies, but we have fallen short at the last hurdle. We very nearly made it.

I find this hard to believe.
You "very nearly made it" and then what? Just gave up? Didn't have enough funds?
If you very nearly made it surely someone would step in to assist the last push or had that "last push" happened a few times?

Diarmuid

TonyStark wrote: »

They might have been better to license their idea to one o the big boys who could have thrown R&D into it and make it into something that could be sold.

I would think the theory behind a power meter is pretty simple. A few strain guages and accelerometers. it's the engineering that turns it into a manufacturable product that's the hard part.

It's not a great result for the investors or the guys behind it. Never good to see 8 years of work going nowhere.

magicbastarder

i was always curious about this notion that kickstarter is essentially equivalent to investing.
as others have mentioned, it's not investing when all you're (possibly) getting is the product you paid for. you don't get a payoff for the risk you're taking.

ford2600

Alek wrote: »

Does this mean that at least 250 companies are registered under exactly the same physical address? :eek:

Small companies often do that, not necessarily a red flag. Probably address of specialist company who deal in company registrations

godtabh

Alek wrote: »

Does this mean that at least 250 companies are registered under exactly the same physical address? :eek:

The address is more than likely a place older. My company is registered in some place in town. Means nothing really.

Fian

magicbastarder wrote: »

i was always curious about this notion that kickstarter is essentially equivalent to investing.
as others have mentioned, it's not investing when all you're (possibly) getting is the product you paid for. you don't get a payoff for the risk you're taking.

This is not an indicator that you are not investing, rather it is an indicator that you are not investing well. You are not getting an adequate potential reward for the risk you are incurring.

Macy0161

Diarmuid wrote: »

I would think the theory behind a power meter is pretty simple. A few strain guages and accelerometers. it's the engineering that turns it into a manufacturable product that's the hard part.

I don't know anything about the engineering side, but what I've read up on new power meters it's always about the reliable manufacturing rather than the theory/ prototype.

Wearable power meters appear to be the big step - although it's more in a running context that I've really heard about them.

BoatMad

I know Barry , and a more honest , hardworking chap you couldnt meet. He has put his life and soul into this product and its a tragedy for him and his private investors as well as KS, etc. I hate people that belittle failure as if it was mischevious.

The issues were always technically complex and money in these circumstances is always very tight. The R&D was considerable and many challenges were over come.

Barry had considerable personal investment in hard cash as well as huge amounts of sweat equity and I hope he picks himself up and gets going again as soon as possible. He is one of the good guys

BoatMad

Fian wrote: »

This is not an indicator that you are not investing, rather it is an indicator that you are not investing well. You are not getting an adequate potential reward for the risk you are incurring.

Kickstarter is not an investment, Its merely an advance purchase of a product that has not yet been made. You are not investing in anything , ,nor are Kickstarter " investors" actually investors in any common sense of the word.

ht9zni1gs28crp

BoatMad wrote: »

I know Barry , and a more honest , hardworking chap you couldnt meet. He has put his life and soul into this product and its a tragedy for him and his private investors as well as KS, etc. I hate people that belittle failure as if it was mischevious.

The issues were always technically complex and money in these circumstances is always very tight. The R&D was considerable and many challenges were over come.

Barry had considerable personal investment in hard cash as well as huge amounts of sweat equity and I hope he picks himself up and gets going again as soon as possible. He is one of the good guys

The Armchair CEO syndrome you find in these situations are hard to take.

At least he had a go....fair play :cool:

smacl

ford2600 wrote: »

Small companies often do that, not necessarily a red flag. Probably address of specialist company who deal in company registrations

Also quite common for small companies to use their accountants address for their registered address, as they may not have a premises when they set the company up nor wish to use their home address.

terrydel

BoatMad wrote: »

I know Barry , and a more honest , hardworking chap you couldnt meet. He has put his life and soul into this product and its a tragedy for him and his private investors as well as KS, etc. I hate people that belittle failure as if it was mischevious.

The issues were always technically complex and money in these circumstances is always very tight. The R&D was considerable and many challenges were over come.

Barry had considerable personal investment in hard cash as well as huge amounts of sweat equity and I hope he picks himself up and gets going again as soon as possible. He is one of the good guys

Does he have anything in terms of patents etc that he can get some of his and other's money back with? Surely if they've been at it 8 years there is something tangible there that they can recoup some of the losses with?

S. Goodspeed

BoatMad wrote: »

I know Barry , and a more honest , hardworking chap you couldnt meet. He has put his life and soul into this product and its a tragedy for him and his private investors as well as KS, etc. I hate people that belittle failure as if it was mischevious.

The issues were always technically complex and money in these circumstances is always very tight. The R&D was considerable and many challenges were over come.

Barry had considerable personal investment in hard cash as well as huge amounts of sweat equity and I hope he picks himself up and gets going again as soon as possible. He is one of the good guys

Agree with all of this. I just met Barry a couple of times when he was on the investment circuit. Extremely genuine and clever guy, poured his life into this and you could tell that failure for him would be devastating (unlike for at lot of "start ups" where failure is almost a badge of honour). They achieved a huge about over the 8 years. If they were based in the US the necessary funding may have been there but Ireland just doesn't have the Angel / VC network which could back this as much as they needed.

smacl

mathie wrote: »

If you very nearly made it surely someone would step in to assist the last push or had that "last push" happened a few times?

Developing an innovative technical product is invariably an iterative process. A bit like climbing a mountain, you think your about to reach the summit only to find another one hidden behind the one you've just climbed. It is also be time consuming, so when what you thought was going to be a 1 year process and you've budgeted to live off your savings for that period becomes two or three years it gets tough. Been in self funded product development myself for many years and sometimes you just don't get there in terms of product or sales. Fair play to the lads stamina for keeping with it as long as they did, and hopefully they'll pick themselves up and move on.

TGD

I took a punt on this and lost.

To me it looked like it was pretty well developed and that they were trying not to bring in investors for the final phase (as you have to give away something to investors)

"Almost all the production tooling and samples are completed and tested. The electronic boards, the plastic enclosures, and the software are complete, and pre-production samples have been in test for more than a year..... All product development and production preparation to date is fully paid for. Your contributions will be used to fund the final tooling adjustments, final production planning, and to manufacture your Zone DPMX power meter." (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/brimbrothers/the-worlds-first-wearable-power-meter-for-cyclists)

However, they outlined the 'risks and challenges' pretty clearly and I can't complain

BoatMad

If they were based in the US the necessary funding may have been there but Ireland just doesn't have the Angel / VC network which could back this as much as they needed.

+1, +1 , hardware Dev in Ireland , especially consumer hardware Dev is extraordinary difficult to fund in ireland and lack off capital then bedevils these projects . When billon dollar companies like Nest , manage two just consumer products in 6 years, you know how difficult it is

BoatMad

that they were trying not to bring in investors for the final phase

There is no evidence of that , knowing what I know and what I hear from the VC community , the equity was all used up and futher private investment was impossible and would have diluted out all the initial investors. There its only so much road, private capital of limited amounts , can bring you along

seamus

Alek wrote: »

Does this mean that at least 250 companies are registered under exactly the same physical address? :eek:

Very common for a company to engage solicitor & secretarial services to handle all of that registration and account guff. The business then gets registered to the secretarial services.

For example:
http://www.solocheck.ie/Irish-Company/Kpmg-230360

This Irish company shares its Eircode with at least 356 other companies.

BoatMad

mathie wrote: »

From their website

I find this hard to believe.
You "very nearly made it" and then what? Just gave up? Didn't have enough funds?
If you very nearly made it surely someone would step in to assist the last push or had that "last push" happened a few times?

in all small companies , that are relying on private finance , finance " walls" get reached several times and near death is experienced on many occasions. Sometimes though there simply isn't any more rope available !

fundamentally , reading the blogs, the unexpected variability in the production version of the force sensor has scuppered production and the money/time isn't there to both fund the r&D and restart production to solve the problem.

The fact is things fail in real life , thats includes businesses. Theres no badness involved here

Perhaps there might be opportunities in selling the patents/products to a company with deeper pockets , but thats of little consolation to both the investors and the current purchasers , neater of which are likely to be re-imbursed

ted1

Diarmuid wrote: »

I would think the theory behind a power meter is pretty simple. A few strain guages and accelerometers. it's the engineering that turns it into a manufacturable product that's the hard part.

It's not a great result for the investors or the guys behind it. Never good to see 8 years of work going nowhere.

I built one fur my final year project in college (electronic engineering) it worked pretty well. Wasn't cycling back then, but I reckon it could have been commercialised easy enough. I had the strain guages on the crack arms on both sides so that you could see what each leg was delivering

BoatMad

ted1 wrote: »

I built one fur my final year project in college (electronic engineering) it worked pretty well. Wasn't cycling back then, but I reckon it could have been commercialised easy enough. I had the strain guages on the crack arms on both sides so that you could see what each leg was delivering

sure sure, and a flute is just a copper pipe with holes in it.

there is a massive difference between a non commercial student project and a small mass specialised consumer product.

think of the issues in selling a product that requires either new crank arms or users modifying the crank arms themselves , think of long term durability, temperature drift , initial calibration, links to recoding and display devices , power supply and recharging etc

come back to us then !!?

ted1

BoatMad wrote: »

sure sure, and a flute is just a copper pipe with holes in it.

there is a massive difference between a non commercial student project and a small mass specialised consumer product.

think of the issues in selling a product that requires either new crank arms or users modifying the crank arms themselves , think of long term durability, temperature drift , initial calibration, links to recoding and display devices , power supply and recharging etc

come back to us then !!?

I know quite a bit about manufacturing, I worked as a R and D engineer for a large multinational who had a small design house here. We had to get our prototypes and products manufactured abroad and also we had to get certifications for strict environmental usage.

I had a 433mhz wireless unit displaying the data on a handle bar unit, which had storage aswell Charging and batteries were already considered.

With BTE ANT etc there's easier ways to do it now.

godtabh

BoatMad wrote: »

sure sure, and a flute is just a copper pipe with holes in it.

there is a massive difference between a non commercial student project and a small mass specialised consumer product.

think of the issues in selling a product that requires either new crank arms or users modifying the crank arms themselves , think of long term durability, temperature drift , initial calibration, links to recoding and display devices , power supply and recharging etc

come back to us then !!?

Most people I think agree that there was a product there but the difficulties was in the production of it.

I've no doubt that with enough time every one here could probably come up with something similar in terms of a basic concept. Having a manufacture/marketable/sell able product is totally different. Thats why manufacture engineering is big business.

buffalo

ted1 wrote: »

I know quite a bit about manufacturing, I worked as a R and D engineer for a large multinational who had a small design house here. We had to get our prototypes and products manufactured abroad and also we had to get certifications for strict environmental usage.

I had a 433mhz wireless unit displaying the data on a handle bar unit, which had storage aswell Charging and batteries were already considered.

With BTE ANT etc there's easier ways to do it now.

When's the kickstarter? I'm in for two!

ted1

buffalo wrote: »

When's the kickstarter? I'm in for two!

Doing a 5 for 4 special

guanciale

This is a real disappointment for the guys behind Brim, but with a lot of new businesses particularly where proof of concept is required, then survivability is simply a fact of life.
This might be off topic, but Ireland needs a lot more risk takers like Barry and I wish home well for the future. We are overly dependent upon Multinationals using Ireland as a base because of an extensive network of tax treaties with other jurisdictions. This business model is under attack from our EU partners and as a betting person I would wager it will not last the decade. It is for that reason that we need to foster an environment whereby people can try and yes very many of them will fail. They key is to keep endeavouring. It must be difficult in Ireland given all of the usual jaundiced view that everyone who fails in business is in some way a conniving chancer on the make. Sorry for the rant.

lennymc

Alek wrote: »

Does this mean that at least 250 companies are registered under exactly the same physical address? :eek:

1209 North Orange Street, Wilmington, Delaware is home to 285,000 registered companies :eek:


It's a shame to see this fail as it really would have been a great alternative for those with multiple bikes.

doozerie

Inevitably in a situation like this there will be some that label those behind the failed company as criminals (the comments on Kickstarter are mostly very personal and downright nasty), and some that label those who put money into it as reckless with their money at best and entirely stupid at worst. I guess that's human nature, we just love to gossip and some people get a particular kick out of laughing at the misfortune of others.

Whatever your view on this situation, whether it's a source of amusement to you or not, you are mistaken if you dismiss Kickstarter as being simply about money. I pre-purchased a Brim Brothers power meter partly because I liked the idea of such a power meter, partly because their offer price seemed good, but also because I'd like to see a small and Irish company succeed in a field dominated for years by some very large players. Competition in this market is good, I believe, and if that competition can be an Irish success then all the better.

I got burnt, I'm not happy about it but being bitter about it would be silly too. I spent the money knowing I was taking a risk and it didn't work out. Would this stop me from taking such a risk in the future for similar reasons? I hope not, that would be silly too.

seamus

doozerie wrote: »

Inevitably in a situation like this there will be some that label those behind the failed company as criminals

At the end of the day, they've been working on this project for 8 years and raised around €350,000 in project funding from the likes of kickstarter. That's realistically not a lot of money to work with when you have overheads to pay on top of your R&D costs. If Barry was taking any kind of income from the company I'd be surprised.

People give money to companies on kickstarter in the expectation that it's going straight into product development and that the company isn't already in the red. In reality, any company which is relying on crowdfunding to investment is likely on its last legs and making a final effort to save itself from insolvency.

If there was a strong marketable product, banks or venture funds would be their first port of call. If they're on kickstarter, it's because the investors have closed their doors and they've already obtained as many loans from the bank as they can.

doozerie

seamus wrote: »

If there was a strong marketable product, banks or venture funds would be their first port of call. If they're on kickstarter, it's because the investors have closed their doors and they've already obtained as many loans from the bank as they can.

That may well be the case, although I'm not convinced not least because I think there are other motives for some people for going the route of something like Kickstarter. But even if I were to accept what you say, that's to me is still not a reason to never use Kickstarter.

As I say, it's not all about the money, I reckon the world would be a fairly miserable place if the assessment of *every* risk where money is involved was based entirely on potential personal financial benefits/losses.

Lumen

seamus wrote: »

In reality, any company which is relying on crowdfunding to investment is likely on its last legs and making a final effort to save itself from insolvency.

If there was a strong marketable product, banks or venture funds would be their first port of call. If they're on kickstarter, it's because the investors have closed their doors and they've already obtained as many loans from the bank as they can.

Hmmm, sounds like a perfect market in finance. You do recall the banking meltdown, right? A large driver of that was the fact that Irish banks would only lend for property, and that hasn't changed much except in lending volumes.

Kickstarter isn't only a funding platform. A large part of its draw is marketing. If you can get people to pony up for vapourware that proves demand which then attracts equity finance. (I wonder if there's a market in Kickstarter fraud?).

Cond0r

Brim Borthers are (were) not the only company working on a wearable cycling power meter.

https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2016/09/lucks-cycling-power-meter-shoe.html

mossym

some customers, 61 in total i believe were offered a Brin Brothers unit from what they had when they went under. they came with a certain set of conditions. No surprised on lac of support or firmware, you'd expect that, but read the conditions, especially the bit in bold, and tell me you still believe the bull$hit about how close to a manufacturable working model they were.


The functional power meters available are only Zone DPMX Single (left side only). We do not have any Zone DPMX Dual available. This offer to ship a Zone DPMX Single is open to you whether you originally selected Single or Dual on Kickstarter.
The power meters will have no guarantee as to accuracy or robustness.
The power meters will have no specification as to their accuracy or performance. The previously published specifications will not apply.
No support or customer service will be available for the power meters. Brim Brothers is ceasing operations so there will be no staff or resources to provide support.
There will be no firmware updates for the power meters.
The power meters are not accurate. Their accuracy may vary depending on the shoes they are used with, and on the pedalling style of the rider. That includes variations between different riding conditions, such as indoor trainer versus outdoor road, or seated versus standing.
There is a possibility that the power meters will suffer a hardware failure and become unusable. No replacement parts or repair service will be available.
When your power meter arrives you may be liable to pay local taxes and duties.

BoatMad

very suprised that Brim are supplying any product post a cease trade decision, in essence its a form of preferential creditor arrangement that could in fact imperil the Directors. I hope they got legal advice

doozerie

mossym wrote: »

No surprised on lac of support or firmware, you'd expect that, but read the conditions, especially the bit in bold, and tell me you still believe the bull$hit about how close to a manufacturable working model they were.

Their claims might have been rubbish, they might not. Their recent statements prove/disprove nothing so none of us are any better informed as a result. The manufacturing process failed, they said that, so unreliable units is a given, unless you have access to more info than the rest of us then your assessment of how close to/far from a reliable process they really were is pure speculation.

More importantly though, does it even matter at this stage?

Kaisr Sose

It could not be expected that they would say they are great, work problem free, are consistently accuarate, stable across all shoes, pedalling styles etc

If they were all these, they probably would have succeeded and gone to market. As per above, it hardly matters at this stage.

mossym

doozerie wrote: »

More importantly though, does it even matter at this stage?

i imagine those that invested money would like to know the truth. plus if brim brothers was to reappear down the line under a different name, as is quite common, saying how close they were, it would be a lot better that people know how far away they actually were.

You're right that there is no clear admission they were miles away. but in a previous role i worked for several years on a pressure type sensor in an electronic device everyone here uses on a daily basis.i've been through the ordeal of getting repeatable results from sensors into data form that you can use. it's not easy. based on that experience though, i 'd struggle to accept those are manufacturing issues, they are fundamental flaws in the measurement method.

I've no desire to beat someone when they are down, but better that people question that and make an informed decision if this appears for funding again.