reseeding peaty low lying meadows

Jimbob91

Iv have 30acres of low lying peety/boggy meadow land. Its getiing harder and harder each year to get silage from it. Between rushes and the bad weather its producing poor quality bales. I need advice on what to do regarding reseeding..prices,time of year,drainage etc

The Cuban

Better off by a mile to plant it

Jimbob91

If the next few summers continue in the same pattern you could be right. Its a last resort but im anti forestation.

The Cuban

I was too till I started collecting all the Tax free monies. I`m thinking of buying a bit of good land instead

Farrell

The Cuban wrote: »

I was too till I started collecting all the Tax free monies. I`m thinking of buying a bit of good land instead

But that's only for your term, the next can't in do your decision & will have extra expense with no government aid

barnaman

What extra expense with forestry? What is the use/purpose of land once its no longer fit to grow grass; that's it for farming it. Rushy poor land that can have a fortune spent on draining, topping, weed licking, reseeding etc for what? Cattle will not thrive on bad land either. Ok so you have to replant but timber is still worth money.

I think forestry is the reality for a lot of average land.

tomwaterford

Jimbob91 wrote: »

Iv have 30acres of low lying peety/boggy meadow land. Its getiing harder and harder each year to get silage from it. Between rushes and the bad weather its producing poor quality bales. I need advice on what to do regarding reseeding..prices,time of year,drainage etc

reseed it

use it to keep lighter/younger animals which wont cut it up......

hytrogen

Consider agroforestry?

Charlie Charolais

what is 60 acres of ready-to-cut softwood worth?

Muckit

The Cuban wrote: »

Better off by a mile to plant it

And how will the cattle eat the trees?? Big chance of them getting timber tongue.

Bass Reeves

Jimbob91 wrote: »

Iv have 30acres of low lying peety/boggy meadow land. Its getiing harder and harder each year to get silage from it. Between rushes and the bad weather its producing poor quality bales. I need advice on what to do regarding reseeding..prices,time of year,drainage etc

I have seen over the last 20 years fields that were good meadowing gone way back. 50 years ago these were often only cut with a horse and mower. Bigger Machiner has not been kind to this type of land. When it was drained orginally a hundred years ago iy was by creating triangle shaped drain using flat stone and these were close to the surface.

Some of this land only needs to be redrained. Newer drains will often rejunivate such land. However I would also be getting the contractor with the smaller tractors rather than the lad that has the large tanker or 30ft mower

yosemitesam1

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I have seen over the last 20 years fields that were good meadowing gone way back. 50 years ago these were often only cut with a horse and mower. Bigger Machiner has not been kind to this type of land. When it was drained orginally a hundred years ago iy was by creating triangle shaped drain using flat stone and these were close to the surface.

30-40 years of artificial fert being horsed out is also a big problem, if the soil is healthy it should be able to bounce back from machinery...

Bass Reeves

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

30-40 years of artificial fert being horsed out is also a big problem, if the soil is healthy it should be able to bounce back from machinery...

I have seen land that had no rushes 30 years ago covered with them now. Fertility may be part of the issue regarding p&k. However drains put into to these fields 100+ years ago were of the type I described. A lot will depend on what level the water table fall to in summer, whether outlet drains are kept clear of mud and water is free flowing when summer comes. It is amazing how drainage changes land.

Water John

Well the OP asked how to reseed it. Drain where its needed, use grass species that suit that soil type. Others may recommend varieties not well up on those.
Sobac might be worth a try. Know little of it but the guy from Roscommon in the IFJ thought it really improved soil and dried it out.

yosemitesam1

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I have seen land that had no rushes 30 years ago covered with them now. Fertility may be part of the issue regarding p&k. However drains put into to these fields 100+ years ago were of the type I described. A lot will depend on what level the water table fall to in summer, whether outlet drains are kept clear of mud and water is free flowing when summer comes. It is amazing how drainage changes land.

Maybe it is just a few drains that's the issue but this modern grass management of high artificial fert use and species poor swards is definitely not contributing as much to the long term maintenance of soil structure and water holding capacity as the old management used to. Less roots, mycorrhiza, worms and other soil life are all a big loss to the soil.

Bass Reeves

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Maybe it is just a few drains that's the issue but this modern grass management of high artificial fert use and species poor swards is definitely not contributing as much to the long term maintenance of soil structure and water holding capacity as the old management used to. Less roots, mycorrhiza, worms and other soil life are all a big loss to the soil.

Type of meadowing I am talking about has not been reseed as long as I remember. But you are right choice of grass seed is often vital in this type of land. Using ryegrass may not be the answer even though teagasc will always push such seed. Too much maintenance. As well a lot of this land is not suitable to really push output. Having said that I think depending on summer water levels a lot is suitable for drainage. It amazing travelling the country to see two farms side by side same land one covered in rushes other covered in green grass

pedigree 6

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

30-40 years of artificial fert being horsed out is also a big problem, if the soil is healthy it should be able to bounce back from machinery...

We're talking peaty soils here.
Peat is high in OM but low in PH (usually 5).
For life to flourish you need a PH of 6.8 to 7.
I'm talking all the bacteria here, the N fixing and phosphorus fixing, the nemotodes and worms all need a PH of 6.8 to 7 to flourish.

If a soil is low in PH, it's not going to be healthy whether in organic or conventional farming.
Pure peat is useless for farming. You need to mix sand and clay with it.
This is where deep ploughing to mix it with the subsoil (if it's not too far down) will benefit. It'll also put a bit of strength back into the ground.
Anyone remember the article in the IFJ of the project in NZ reclaiming the bog by digging up the marl subsoil and mixing the soil.

Bass Reeves

pedigree 6 wrote: »

We're talking peaty soils here.
Peat is high in OM but low in PH (usually 5).
For life to flourish you need a PH of 6.8 to 7.
I'm talking all the bacteria here, the N fixing and phosphorus fixing, the nemotodes and worms all need a PH of 6.8 to 7 to flourish.

If a soil is low in PH, it's not going to be healthy whether in organic or conventional farming.
Pure peat is useless for farming. You need to mix sand and clay with it.
This is where deep ploughing to mix it with the subsoil (if it's not too far down) will benefit. It'll also put a bit of strength back into the ground.
Anyone remember the article in the IFJ of the project in NZ reclaiming the bog by digging up the marl subsoil and mixing the soil.

I think this was carried out with mounding. This was forming little hills on the land so that water drained quickly. However this was carried out in large area's fields of 100's of acres not typical in an Irish set up. There would be no point in carrying out such an excerise in isolation unless multiple farm came on board. As well it may not be suitable for meadowing that is being cut unless mounds are very gentle and you stay away from the 24' or 30'mower.

PH is important but trying to maintain PH in this land is hard. Using ground lime is tough on this type of land as high rates of lime takes the skin off it for years. I have see such excerised of putting clay on top of bog but it can often leave land hungry. However it may have an input but draining is more than likly 80% of the issue. As well I am not sure if OP lands is pure peat. Often lads describe black earth on top of clay as boggy land.

With any of this land it is getting the water away from the surface as quick as possible. Traditionally this was done with flag stone drains that are often now collapsed due to heave machinery ( and cattle have got heavier as well). Lads shy away from drainage as it is expensive but is often the only answer

Mooooo

We dug up approx 6 acres of heavy ground, not quite peaty, in an attempt to change the fall and dry it out. A lot of subsoil mixed with the top layer before leveled again. Now it worked to a degree as is drier now but is hungry wouldn't grow the grass of the rest of the place yet anyway and surface can now go rock hard in dry summer while can still be wet in winter. Better than looking at it submerged every year anyway

pedigree 6

Mooooo wrote: »

We dug up approx 6 acres of heavy ground, not quite peaty, in an attempt to change the fall and dry it out. A lot of subsoil mixed with the top layer before leveled again. Now it worked to a degree as is drier now but is hungry wouldn't grow the grass of the rest of the place yet anyway and surface can now go rock hard in dry summer while can still be wet in winter. Better than looking at it submerged every year anyway

Dung, dung and more dung that's what you need for that field.

I did a bit of drainage myself here a few years ago. The drains went down six foot in the ground (piped and stoned) and all joined in one outlet pipe to an open drain, to keep the water flowing and pipe from silting up. Works a treat.
There was one part of the field, it was just a hollow and full of peaty soil (if you walked in this you were stuck to your waist). So after picking the stones from the rest of the field, I got that stuff dug out and put the stones in the hollow and covered it back with the soil. Then I pulled back a bank near the open drain over that again, to let all surface water flow into the open drain. So there's no hollows now and a slope to an open drain, as well as the underground drains catching any springs or underground water.

Bass Reeves

pedigree 6 wrote: »

Dung, dung and more dung that's what you need for that field.
.

Or slurry if you can get it into it. This type of land will really benifit from slurry however your only chance may well be in the middle of the summer and scarfice N content of slurry. If you are anywhere near a piggery I would horse it on it for 2-3 years at 2-3k gallons/acre.

Mooooo

Haven't had much dung here till this year, have been targeting the better slurry on that field alright and it is slowly improving. The spring after we re seeded it was wet and it took a few months for the ground to settle, I'd say a fair bit of the ryegrass didnt survive the first year

yosemitesam1

pedigree 6 wrote: »

We're talking peaty soils here.
Peat is high in OM but low in PH (usually 5).
For life to flourish you need a PH of 6.8 to 7.
I'm talking all the bacteria here, the N fixing and phosphorus fixing, the nemotodes and worms all need a PH of 6.8 to 7 to flourish.

If a soil is low in PH, it's not going to be healthy whether in organic or conventional farming.
Pure peat is useless for farming. You need to mix sand and clay with it.
This is where deep ploughing to mix it with the subsoil (if it's not too far down) will benefit. It'll also put a bit of strength back into the ground.
Anyone remember the article in the IFJ of the project in NZ reclaiming the bog by digging up the marl subsoil and mixing the soil.

Assumed the op has a sticky silty type soil as opposed to proper peat, this is the type of soil that has to be kept open with roots and soil life if its not to end up as the op described.

pedigree 6

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Assumed the op has a sticky silty type soil as opposed to proper peat, this is the type of soil that has to be kept open with roots and soil life if its not to end up as the op described.

I still stand by the above.
Life depends on ph.

The filtered jfc pipes look to be made for this. Don't know price though.
Or may even have to go to open drains and contoured to the drains.
The deeper the drain the more you lower the groundwater.

Never wrestle with pigs

I have peat soil here with a ph of 7.2. It never got lime. Not all peat is acidic. Open drains (I need to get around to doing this too) is the only job. I like the look of those filtered jfc pipes also.

Waffletraktor

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

I have peat soil here with a ph of 7.2. It never got lime. Not all peat is acidic. Open drains (I need to get around to doing this too) is the only job. I like the look of those filtered jfc pipes also.

The surface might not be but what is it like 2/3 ft down where the roots go?

TPF2012

Waffletraktor wrote:

The surface might not be but what is it like 2/3 ft down where the roots go?

Dressing ground with lime will only lift the ph of the top few inches.

Good loser

What is the depth of the peat layer?

Trees are unstable on deepish peat and subject to windblow. Esp if exposed.

Has neighbouring land of the same nature been successfully drained?

If so go ahead and drain and farm. Intensive draining could exceed €1500 per acre.

If money tight do a fraction of the land first - one third.

blue5000

Or put trees on the worst of it.
Have some wet land here and it's only used for grazing.
Little and often with pasture sward, 27 2.5 5 compound.
Over seed it when you have to. There are mixes with timothy(?) for wetland.

Old thread here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056722207