How much would you give up for a better society?

Dr Crayfish

The story of the homeless couple in the Phoenix Park and the horrible attitudes of people got me thinking...
If we could pump money into efficient health services and the facilities to deal with homelessness, and the huge heroin problem in Ireland (well Dublin anyway), and better facilities for rehabilitating criminals perhaps to a Scandinavian model standard, and Public Transport links, what percentage of your net wages would you be willing to give up?
I'm going to say 10% myself, and I'd probably be willing to do more if that was the general consensus. Most of us spend a lot of money on crap we don't need like take aways and meals in restaurants and gadgets etc and stuff people didn't need or want 30 years ago.

I'm well aware if we paid more tax our inept powers that be would just have it magically disappear while nothing would improve, but say we outsourced our Government to PWC or Accenture, proper professionals who get things done and account for their spending, not muppets like Jackie Healy Rae and senior Civil Servants who stumbled their way up the ranks, would you be willing to sacrifice some of your salary?

Galwayguy35

I'd pay more tax to give working people who have to pay for everything more services like free health care, refuse collection etc.

The people you mention are already having money allocated to help them out, more than enough I'd suggest.

gifted

Will I just bend over even more??

Atlantic Dawn

You make a choice to take heroin, I'd not be prepared to give as much of the steam of my piss to help anyone taking it.

Dr Crayfish

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

You make a choice to take heroin, I'd not be prepared to give as much of the steam of my piss to help anyone taking it.

You don't make a choice to be born into squalor in Inner City Dublin with parents who don't care about you and no opportunities. Why aren't kids in Blackrock College on heroin I wonder?

milehip

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

You make a choice to take heroin, I'd not be prepared to give as much of the steam of my piss to help anyone taking it.

Dead right hang'em and flog'em I say!!!

gifted

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

You don't make a choice to be born into squalor in Inner City Dublin with parents who don't care about you and no opportunities. Why aren't kids in Blackrock College on heroin I wonder?

Because there parents didn't make a choice to use heroin by any chance?

Dr Crayfish

gifted wrote: »

Because there parents didn't make a choice to use heroin by any chance?

Because they were from an affluent background with lots of opportunities. How sheltered is your existence?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

zSparc

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Most of us spend a lot of money on crap we don't need

I already give up my life, family, free time = work > I earn > I pay taxes > I spend the rest on whatever I please.

gifted

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Because they were from an affluent background with lots of opportunities. How sheltered is your existence?

So you have to come from an affluent background to say no?

Dr Crayfish

gifted wrote: »

So you have to come from an affluent background to say no?

Answer me this - why do you think people from poor areas are more likely to take heroin?

Bigby

I get up at 7 every morning to go to work. I got €3.10 per week extra from this year's budget. A lad down the road hasn't worked in 8 years and he gets €5 per week extra for doing absolutely nothing, he'll also get a Christmas "bonus".

They can go fcuk off, they get too much as it is. Sick of paying for other idiots' bad decisions in life.

toptom

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Answer me this - why do you think people from poor areas are more likely to take heroin?

Its in the breeding you see, Bad parents have bad kids, And the dealers in their estates get them hooked young

Galwayguy35

And your answer OP is to try and squeeze more tax out of us, sorry but that well is gone dry.

PARlance

50% of 4 f**ks.

Dr Crayfish

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

And your answer OP is to try and squeeze more tax out of us, sorry but that well is gone dry.

I'm not sure you got the point of my thread. To help others, the needy in our society, and to improve services in general, would you be willing to give up some more of your salary if you knew it would be spent wisely?

Atticus Jung

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

The story of the homeless couple in the Phoenix Park and the horrible attitudes of people got me thinking...
If we could pump money into efficient health services and the facilities to deal with homelessness, and the huge heroin problem in Ireland (well Dublin anyway), and better facilities for rehabilitating criminals perhaps to a Scandinavian model standard, and Public Transport links, what percentage of your net wages would you be willing to give up?
I'm going to say 10% myself, and I'd probably be willing to do more if that was the general consensus. Most of us spend a lot of money on crap we don't need like take aways and meals in restaurants and gadgets etc and stuff people didn't need or want 30 years ago.

I'm well aware if we paid more tax our inept powers that be would just have it magically disappear while nothing would improve, but say we outsourced our Government to PWC or Accenture, proper professionals who get things done and account for their spending, not muppets like Jackie Healy Rae and senior Civil Servants who stumbled their way up the ranks, would you be willing to sacrifice some of your salary?

This is the biggest hurdle with this scenario. If that got sorted id be more than happy to give up a significantly bigger chunk.

Love the idea of outsourcing the government:D.

Right2Write

In theory, I'd be prepared to share more of our family's assets and wealth. But that would be predicated on everyone in society and I mean everyone (barring those who unable due to genuine disability or ill health) putting their best foot forward and making an active effort to contribute to society.

In practice though, there are people who are prepared to pay their way and those that want to live off the efforts of others. Now you can argue as to why they do this, but it matters not why because it seems to be part of the human condition.

Dr Crayfish

Bigby wrote: »

Sick of paying for other idiots' bad decisions in life.

Homelessness and heroin addiction are down to bad decisions? I feel like I'm at a Donald Trump rally here ffs.

gifted

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Answer me this - why do you think people from poor areas are more likely to take heroin?

I've no idea and tbh I don't care...I work.I pay my bills I try and keep a house over my head and I work I pay my bills I try and keep a house over my head ..you get what I'm saying? Same thing over and over again but I want to do it...it's called real life... why should I give up some of my hard earned wages for someone else..I pay enough tax as it is.

Dr Crayfish

gifted wrote: »

I've no idea and tbh I don't care...I work.I pay my bills I try and keep a house over my head and I work I pay my bills I try and keep a house over my head ..you get what I'm saying? Same thing over and over again but I want to do it...it's called real life... why should I give up some of my hard earned wages for someone else..I pay enough tax as it is.

Fair enough. I feel empathy for those in dire situations, and feel guilty when I'm buying crap sometimes that I don't really need. I wish we could improve the standard of living for those worse off and I'd like to see some new ways of dealing with the problems in our society.

Butters1979

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

You don't make a choice to be born into squalor in Inner City Dublin with parents who don't care about you and no opportunities. Why aren't kids in Blackrock College on heroin I wonder?

Why isn't everyone born into squalor in inner city Dublin on heroine? Some get dealt a more difficult hand. Some rise above it and some use it as an excuse.

Galwayguy35

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

I'm not sure you got the point of my thread. To help others, the needy in our society, and to improve services in general, would you be willing to give up some more of your salary if you knew it would be spent wisely?

I do get the point and I answered it, a shedload of money already goes to the people you mention so maybe it's just that the money isn't being managed properly or else maybe some people just don't want to be helped.

As I said I'd give up more tax to make life easier on all of us who actually contribute to the running of the country.

Dr Crayfish

Butters1979 wrote: »

Why isn't everyone born into squalor in inner city Dublin on heroine? Some get dealt a more difficult hand. Some rise above it and some use it as an excuse.

Have you seen the state of some of the junkie parents dragging their kids around buying benzos off other junkies in the morning?
If you were that kid are you really sure you'd "rise above it"?

Dr Crayfish

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

As I said I'd give up more tax to make life easier on all of us who actually contribute to the running of the country.

Ok. Would you give up money for a world class health care system and better public transport then?

4068ac1elhodqr

I’d contribute the ‘currency of ideas’
- for the proper utilisation of ‘existing funds, generated from taxation’.

One idea or solution, could be to buy a couple of very large ships, moored up at the docks.
One for the sellers, and one for the buyers of specific drugs.
Not prison ships per say, more so ‘out of the way’ dedicated rehabilitation and treatment facilities.

When those guests have received the proper level of psycho-re-orientation, cognitive therapy, healthcare and life skills.
Then they’d be ready, and perhaps even ‘very eager’ to re-join and more effectively contribute to society.

Right2Write

Human societies are usually unequal, there are 'haves' and 'have nots' eventually in every system.. What has changed in the last few decades is that we offer more supports in Western Europe to the 'have nots'. They are less likely now to die in disease and squalor at a young age. This could be seen as a good thing. It can also be seen as detrimental as it can prolong some peoples suffering. In the same way as modern medicine can prolong an elderly person's life, even though their quality of life may be greatly diminished and they might be gladder to have simply succumbed. Life is unequal and our efforts to equalise it are fraught with unintended consequences.

Butters1979

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

I'm not sure you got the point of my thread. To help others, the needy in our society, and to improve services in general, would you be willing to give up some more of your salary if you knew it would be spent wisely?

No. We spend enough on welfare and aid. If you think more is needed you can voluntarily give more rather than expecting everyone to pay even more out of what they've earned. Add more tax and peole with the ability to leave will leave. Any more welfare and peole with little interest in working won't. You can't spread wealth evenly. It doesn't make everybody rich. It makes every body poor.

Galwayguy35

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Ok. Would you give up money for a world class health care system and better public transport then?

Yes, because that would benefit all the citizens of the country.

Butters1979

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Have you seen the state of some of the junkie parents dragging their kids around buying benzos off other junkies in the morning?
If you were that kid are you really sure you'd "rise above it"?

Maybe we gave less child support to junkies they wouldn't see having kids in the first place as another whelfare check.

hytrogen

I'm happy with the price of the multimodal commuter ticket, as well as the cycle to work scheme. I think they're appropriately priced to contribute to the grander scheme of things. And they are an optional "tax" that guarantees funds towards public transport annually. I'd say if every employee in Dublin bought that annual commuter ticket there would be a hell of a lot more in the kitty to fix our transport needs inside the m50.
In terms of healthcare, I don't think we'll ever find sufficient funds to tackle homelessness & drug problems, sometimes it's inherent sadly. However through education, sport & entrepreneurialism there's a chance that could change

FTA69

Butters1979 wrote: »

Maybe we gave less child support to junkies they wouldn't see having kids in the first place as another whelfare check.

What Americanised rubbish is this?

Junkies having kids to get a "welfare check". Jesus like. You don't know what you're on about.

Your Face

What an idiotic post OP.

Butters1979

FTA69 wrote: »

What Americanised rubbish is this?

Junkies having kids to get a "welfare check". Jesus like. You don't know what you're on about.

American? Explain that comment?
If you think they're aren't people out there who have kids for the extra income or the push up the housing list you don't know what you're on about. I've met people who have openly admitted this.

Edit: do you think my opinion is American or this stuff only happens in America?

Right2Write

FTA69 wrote: »

What Americanised rubbish is this?

Junkies having kids to get a "welfare check". Jesus like. You don't know what you're on about.

SO worked with 'disadvantaged youth' in County Dublin. Says that the priority for many older teenage girls was to get pregnant, so that they may make a start on the housing list etc. and the various other social welfare benefits that flow from having children whilst having no income.

I don't blame them for this - they are making a solid economic choice based on the system and supports that society provides.

wakka12

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

You make a choice to take heroin, I'd not be prepared to give as much of the steam of my piss to help anyone taking it.

Its not quite as simple as that. Most heroin addicts are born into a part of society where its more normalised and the detrimental effects arent as well appreciated . If some of your middle class friends or family made the mistake Im sure you'd be more sympathetic to heroin users. Everyone makes mistakes, heroin is a big mistake. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be helped

Butters1979

Butters1979 wrote: »

American? Explain that comment?
If you think they're aren't people out there who have kids for the extra income or the push up the housing list you don't know what you're on about. I've met people who have openly admitted this.

Edit: do you think my opinion is American or this stuff only happens in America?

Welfare check is American spelling and possibly even just an Americanism in general

Butters1979

bluewolf wrote: »

Welfare check is American spelling and possibly even just an Americanism in general

Welfare is not an American word or a spelling. It's also nothing to do with the point.

Dr Crayfish

Right2Write wrote: »

SO worked with 'disadvantaged youth' in County Dublin. Says that the priority for many older teenage girls was to get pregnant, so that they may make a start on the housing list etc. and the various other social welfare benefits that flow from having children whilst having no income.

I don't blame them for this - they are making a solid economic choice based on the system and supports that society provides.

If they do this they're doing it because they don't know any better. Their parents did it and so forth. I would have thought helping these people, the less educated and poorer people, would results in more of them choosing a different life, as they'd be aware of other options.

Hammer89

toptom wrote: »

Its in the breeding you see, Bad parents have bad kids, And the dealers in their estates get them hooked young

You don't get hooked on heroin unless you use it as a means of escape I don't think.

Why do you think the hundreds of thousands of people on morphine - a stronger substance than street heroin - at this very moment will not become junkies as soon as they're released from hospital? Because a huge amount of them weren't the victims of some sort of trauma, be it childhood abuse or neglect. They don't need opiates in their life. But the ones who do are scumbags? I'll probably get banned here but you're a bigger scumbag if that's your genuine opinion. It's so ridiculously offensive.

Butters1979

Hammer89 wrote: »

You don't get hooked on heroin unless you use it as a means of escape I don't think.

Why do you think the hundreds of thousands of people on morphine - a stronger substance than street heroin - at this very moment will not become junkies as soon as they're released from hospital? Because a huge amount of them weren't the victims of some sort of trauma, be it childhood abuse or neglect. They don't need opiates in their life. But the ones who do are scumbags? I'll probably get banned here but you're a bigger scumbag if that's your genuine opinion. It's so ridiculously offensive.

Someone with a different opinion than you? Welcome to real life. People take drugs for all sorts of reasons. Not all our victims. And not all victims take heroine. Stop blanket excusing all drug addicts as if it's everyone's fault but their own.

foggy_lad

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

The story of the homeless couple in the Phoenix Park and the horrible attitudes of people got me thinking...
If we could pump money into efficient health services and the facilities to deal with homelessness, and the huge heroin problem in Ireland (well Dublin anyway), and better facilities for rehabilitating criminals perhaps to a Scandinavian model standard, and Public Transport links, what percentage of your net wages would you be willing to give up?

Nothing, absolutely nothing and if I could stop existing funds being wasted on junkies and convicted violent criminals I would gladly do so.

Butters1979

Butters1979 wrote: »

Welfare is not an American word or a spelling. It's also nothing to do with the point.

Check is ...
Which is probably why FTA said it

Dr Crayfish

foggy_lad wrote: »

Nothing, absolutely nothing and if I could stop existing funds being wasted on junkies and convicted violent criminals I would gladly do so.

I really hope you never have a kid who ends up in a bad situation and becomes an alcoholic or a drug addict. Having a parent like yourself would only make her situation far, far worse.

Surreptitious

Who is the heroine and why does everyone keep taking her?

me_right_one

I'd give my life. Hence why I joined the defence forces at a young age. If Russia or england or Isis ever try to set foot here, I will die protecting the junkies and sheltered naifs living on this island. The point is, they're our junkies and sheltered naifs. We live here together whether we like it or not, and until everybody is at least prepared to give the ultimate sacrifice, then we will never have an equal society.

Butters1979

bluewolf wrote: »

Check is ...
Which is probably why FTA said it

Ah. Cheque. I get it now. My argument is invalid.

Hammer89

Butters1979 wrote: »

Someone with a different opinion than you? Welcome to real life. People take drugs for all sorts of reasons. Not all our victims. And not all victims take heroine. Stop blanket excusing all drug addicts as if it's everyone's fault but their own.

What part of his post is opinionated?

The trouble here is what he said isn't an opinion - it's factually untrue. Would it be an opinion if he said Tottenham won the Premier League last season, or if I said the Vietnam war took place in Sligo? No. It's simply not true and neither is what your man said.

To answer the OP's question, I wouldn't mind an extra tax hit if the money was spent on an empathy course for Butters and his pal.

FURET

How about junkies give up junk in order to create a better society.

In Ireland we have a welfare state. No one need be homeless or hungry. Everyone is equal before the law.

The state is not competent enough to remedy every failure of personal responsibility, nor should we be coerced to assist, which is what you're driving at.

foggy_lad

People need to take responsibility for their own actions and addictions. Throwing resources at such people to make their lives better is only facilitating their drug/gambling/alcohol abuse.