Commuters should be forced to use public transport

amcalester

There are too many people driving to work when there are perfectly suitable public transport options.

My suggestion is that commuters who live on a public transport route between home and work are given a tax saver ticket by their employer to encourage commuter to use public transport.

This will reduce the amount of traffic on our roads.

Obviously this would only work where there is a viable public transport option.

Golfgorfield

You were stuck in traffic driving to work this morning i assume?

Gumbo

amcalester wrote: »

There are too many people driving to work when there are perfectly suitable public transport options.

My suggestion is that commuters who live on a public transport route between home and work are given a tax saver ticket by their employer to encourage commuter to use public transport.

This will reduce the amount of traffic on our roads.

Obviously this would only work where there is a viable public transport option.

How do you get to work OP?
Will Dublin Bus employ more staff so they can put on more buses as the routes are packed as they are!

seamus

Virtually every employer is already involved in the tax saver scheme, you can't force an employee to get one.

In reality car parking spaces should be chargeable as BIK for every employee who has full-time access to one. So if the average hourly parking cost is €2 around the office and an employee has access to a space full time, that should be chargeable as a €2 x 40 x 48 = €3,840 salary bonus and taxed accordingly.

Would probably make quite a few people reconsider the wisdom of the commute when it costs them money to drive in.

drunkmonkey

I don't think there should be any tax incentive, put a special tax on fuel in Dublin and increase the price of dart/bus tickets to fund investment in world class high speed rail network. A bit of pain now but a lot of gain in the future. Dublin to limerick should be less than an hour with cork and galway about the same. It's only a little island, it shouldn't be as hard and as long to travel around the island.
Decentralisation needs to be looked at again but quick commuting is essential and not just confined to the east coast.
All the country is crying out for jobs and dublin is getting everything, there's not even houses to put the people in dublin in. Time to move out jobs to places where 100/200 jobs could transform the future of towns around the country.
So my plan,
Add one euro to the cost of every dart and dublin bus ticket. ( I estimate this to bring in 400 million in year one.
Extra tax on fuel in dublin fuel stations. (Estimate of 600 million in year one)
I'm not sure what funds are required but an investment of 3 billion over 3 years should have a serious impact.

Dubliners won't be happy but I don't believe the carrot of tax incentive will work, need to beat the dubs with a stick until the money falls out of their pockets and we fix this transport mess.

jimgoose

seamus wrote: »

Virtually every employer is already involved in the tax saver scheme, you can't force an employee to get one.

In reality car parking spaces should be chargeable as BIK for every employee who has full-time access to one. So if the average hourly parking cost is €2 around the office and an employee has access to a space full time, that should be chargeable as a €2 x 40 x 48 = €3,840 salary bonus and taxed accordingly.

Would probably make quite a few people reconsider the wisdom of the commute when it costs them money to drive in.

By that rationale those of us who have "access to a space full time" by dint of living in the relatively spacious 'Burbs should be taxed similarly, given that some people in city-centres have to pay extra premium to park a car. Be careful what you wish for, because this sort of thing mightn't necessarily stop until we're all levelled by tax.

amcalester

amcalester wrote: »

when there are perfectly suitable public transport options.

Bahahahahahaha!

Tabnabs

seamus wrote: »

Virtually every employer is already involved in the tax saver scheme, you can't force an employee to get one.

In reality car parking spaces should be chargeable as BIK for every employee who has full-time access to one. So if the average hourly parking cost is €2 around the office and an employee has access to a space full time, that should be chargeable as a €2 x 40 x 48 = €3,840 salary bonus and taxed accordingly.

Would probably make quite a few people reconsider the wisdom of the commute when it costs them money to drive in.

And penalise those who don't have public transport options, or a public transport commute of 2+hrs vs. a 45 minute drive. Where can I subscribe to your newsletter...

ThisRegard

seamus wrote: »

In reality car parking spaces should be chargeable as BIK for every employee who has full-time access to one. So if the average hourly parking cost is €2 around the office and an employee has access to a space full time, that should be chargeable as a €2 x 40 x 48 = €3,840 salary bonus and taxed accordingly.

Would probably make quite a few people reconsider the wisdom of the commute when it costs them money to drive in.

You'd need a strictly defined perimeter as to where to apply these charges, within the 2 canals for example might be workable, but to tax someone who has the use of a space in one of the business parks won't.

An employer could also say the spaces are just in a pool and no employee 'owns' them, it's a first come, first serve basis or the likes.

I had an assigned space within the city centre for years, only time I used public transport was when I was going to the pub after work, it was always quicker to drive or cycle than it was to get the bus.

peneau

Why bother with democracy and a modicum of freedom of choice let the state completely mandate in everything what's good and best for all and be done with it ...ks sake, what next !

Del2005

amcalester wrote: »

There are too many people driving to work when there are perfectly suitable public transport options.

My suggestion is that commuters who live on a public transport route between home and work are given a tax saver ticket by their employer to encourage commuter to use public transport.

This will reduce the amount of traffic on our roads.

Obviously this would only work where there is a viable public transport option.

They seriously need to improve public transport before they start forcing more people to us it, it's close to dangerously over crowded now.

I live close to the LUAS and plenty of buses. Only problem is that they all travel into the city and I don't work there, so for me to get public transport to work would involve travelling into the city, ~1 hour, then connect and travel back out again, ~1 hour, for a journey that takes 30 min by car not along with I work shift so for days there is no public transport option to get me to work on time.

seamus wrote: »

Virtually every employer is already involved in the tax saver scheme, you can't force an employee to get one.

In reality car parking spaces should be chargeable as BIK for every employee who has full-time access to one. So if the average hourly parking cost is €2 around the office and an employee has access to a space full time, that should be chargeable as a €2 x 40 x 48 = €3,840 salary bonus and taxed accordingly.

Would probably make quite a few people reconsider the wisdom of the commute when it costs them money to drive in.

That would work except that the people who benefit the most from it and would have to implement it, public sector employees, have a huge amount of free parking within the canals in Dublin.

Kensington

Not a chance.

When we had the bad snow that time and everyone abandoned their cars at home instead of driving the Dublin Bus service was carnage. Every bus was working yet during both peak commute times you had buses leaving the first stop already full leaving everyone behind at the following stops the entire way to/from the city centre.

The LUAS was not much better.

Padraig Mor

seamus wrote: »

Would probably make quite a few people reconsider the wisdom of the commute when it costs them money to drive in.

You seem to be assuming that it costs commuters nothing to drive in currently. A rather bizarre stance given the punitive costs of motoring in Ireland. Unfortunately it's all too common among a certain subset of commentators - "Dem commuters are all driving in coz dey're lazy and want to park outside the door and coz it costs dem nothing. Dey should be cycling or getting the bus instead". This rather ignores the reality for a huge number of commuters - how bad or unsuitable is public transport that they will fork out massive sums of cash to get on the road, endure the misery of long traffic choked commutes and missing time with their families - yet it's still preferable to using public transport?

biko

amcalester

Golfgorfield wrote: »

You were stuck in traffic driving to work this morning i assume?

No, just a conversation yesterday in work that made of think of this.

LIGHTNING wrote: »

You mean the tax saver scheme that doesn't really save you any money unless you go for the really expensive one that you probably don't need.

Well, now that people would get more use out of it then it would save them more money.

kceire wrote: »

How do you get to work OP?
Will Dublin Bus employ more staff so they can put on more buses as the routes are packed as they are!

I alternate between driving and cycling, I would use public transport but that would be more than a 3 hour round trip which isn't feasible.

I think this would work, the public transport network is there so people should use it.

Dravokivich

amcalester wrote: »

There are too many people driving to work when there are perfectly suitable public transport options.

My suggestion is that commuters who live on a public transport route between home and work are given a tax saver ticket by their employer to encourage commuter to use public transport.

This will reduce the amount of traffic on our roads.

Obviously this would only work where there is a viable public transport option.

My public transport options take me further away from where I work.

seamus

seamus wrote: »

Virtually every employer is already involved in the tax saver scheme, you can't force an employee to get one.

Actually they arent that easy to get. My partner can't get one due to some snafu in her office, and my current employer doesnt do them yet either. I had one in my previous company and to be honest, it actually doesnt save you much at all. If you get the luas and bus ticket it costs 156 euros, which saves you 78 euros. If you touch on and off on the luas and use the leap card on the bus, the weekly cap is 27.50, so in a month your maximum spend would be 110, so where does the other 46 euros go?

I alternate between driving and cycling, I would use public transport but that would be more than a 3 hour round trip which isn't feasible.

So under your own suggestion, you would be one of the people forced to use public transport but to the detriment of your own convenience.

Thats mighty patriotic of you.

amcalester

Deleted User wrote: »

Actually they arent that easy to get. My partner can't get one due to some snafu in her office, and my current employer doesnt do them yet either. I had one in my previous company and to be honest, it actually doesnt save you much at all. If you get the luas and bus ticket it costs 156 euros, which saves you 78 euros. If you touch on and off on the luas and use the leap card on the bus, the weekly cap is 27.50, so in a month your maximum spend would be 110, so where does the other 46 euros go?



So under your own suggestion, you would be one of the people forced to use public transport but to the detriment of your own convenience.

Thats mighty patriotic of you.

No, I suppose I would just have to cycle more often. There would obviously have to be some criteria as to what constitutes a "via public service option" for example within a 10 minute walk of a route and no more than 1 change with a maximum total journey time.

Again, if the option is there motorists should be forced to use public transport. Afterall that is why its there.

ThisRegard

amcalester wrote: »

Again, if the option is there motorists should be forced to use public transport. Afterall that is why its there.

You'd be mad to if it was slower.

jimgoose

amcalester wrote: »

...Again, if the option is there motorists should be forced to use public transport. Afterall that is why its there.

And what about the catastrophic effect on my day? After being herded onto the cattle-truck and trundled to the office, I'm stuck there for the day until it's time to Raus! Raus!! back on it and go home. I can't pop out to lunch, run a couple of errands around the place when I have a spare half-hour, pop home to open up for the boiler service guy, etc. etc.

ianobrien

OP, public transport is totally out for me. According to the transport for Ireland website, it would take 1:45 to get to work with two bus changes, with me arriving about an hour late. The return journey would take 2:25, with me leaving work at 15:15!

Also, it takes 25 minutes for me to drive to work. So it's either spend over 4 hours in public transport to work less than a full day, or 50minutes to drive with me deciding on what time I come or go?

seamus

jimgoose wrote: »

By that rationale those of us who have "access to a space full time" by dint of living in the relatively spacious 'Burbs should be taxed similarly, given that some people in city-centres have to pay extra premium to park a car. Be careful what you wish for, because this sort of thing mightn't necessarily stop until we're all levelled by tax.

They already are. A property with space for vehicles is valued higher than one without, which means you pay a higher property tax.

If your employer provides parking somewhere on-street parking is free anyway, then your BIK and subsequent liability is zero anyway.

If you live way out beyond public transport, then you drive to somewhere you can avail of it and leave your car there.

Or drive in and pay your BIK.

I'm not exactly suggesting anything revolutionary here, charging commuters for using private vehicles within heavily congested areas is in use in many places.

amcalester

jimgoose wrote: »

And what about the catastrophic effect on my day? After being herded onto the cattle-truck and trundled to the office, I'm stuck there for the day until it's time to Raus! Raus!! back on it and go home. I can't pop out to lunch, run a couple of errands around the place when I have a spare half-hour, pop home to open up for the boiler service guy, etc. etc.

ianobrien wrote: »

OP, public transport is totally out for me. According to the transport for Ireland website, it would take 1:45 to get to work with two bus changes, with me arriving about an hour late. The return journey would take 2:25, with me leaving work at 15:15!

Also, it takes 25 minutes for me to drive to work. So it's either spend over 4 hours in public transport to work less than a full day, or 50minutes to drive with me deciding on what time I come or go?

But you're both just being selfish for taking up valuable road space for other more important road users. Those messages could easily be done on foot or on public transport. Its already there so you should just use it. Sure why wouldnt you.

jimgoose

amcalester wrote: »

...Sure why wouldnt you.

Because my time is worth some serious coin, bah. :cool:

jimgoose

seamus wrote: »

They already are. A property with space for vehicles is valued higher than one without, which means you pay a higher property tax...

Indeed. Sooo... we're good?

bucketybuck

Is this the same public transport that likes downing tools and holding the city to ransom every few months? That public transport?

Nah.

bazz26

This thread is awesome and makes me wanna go out and buy a bigger car with a thirstier and dirtier engine so that I can drive at 40kph on the overtaking lane annoying more tree hungers on my commute to work. Bring it on.

Rory28

We need more motorbikes on the road. It is the best way to clear traffic that doesn't need a 5 year govt plan.

TheQuietFella

Golfgorfield wrote: »

You were stuck in traffic driving to work this morning i assume?

Were you on the M7 heading out of Dublin on Friday last???

Maybe that's the usual amount of traffic on a Friday but it has gone beyond a joke at this stage. There should have been rail lines laid years ago to service Dublin and the outer commuter regions. It's all too little too late!

When you look at the transport system in the UK and we should have been following their lead on a smaller scale. It couldn't have been that difficult!

ianobrien

amcalester wrote: »

But you're both just being selfish for taking up valuable road space for other more important road users. Those messages could easily be done on foot or on public transport. Its already there so you should just use it. Sure why wouldnt you.

I'm going to assume you are trolling at this point and not bother to take the bate.......

bazz26

Is there anything to be said for saying another mass?

Rory28

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I was going to get a bike years ago when it looked like I was going to have to work in city west. Well the insurance quotes put me right off. Apparently as a car driver all my years of experience mean nothing. We dont use the same roads I think /s

What bike did you try and insure? Initial cost is admittedly high but you will save it in the long run on petrol/tax/no nct/parking. I commute on a 125 and get roughly 200km for 7euro petrol.

Insurance is steepish at 450 but thats because they are robbing bastards.

the.red.baron

Rory28 wrote: »

What bike did you try and insure? Initial cost is admittedly high but you will save it in the long run on petrol/tax/no nct/parking. I commute on a 125 and get roughly 200km for 7euro petrol.

Insurance is steepish at 450 but thats because they are robbing bastards.

How long have you been insured, 3rd party for me on a 600cc is 240 this year

amcalester

ianobrien wrote: »

I'm going to assume you are trolling at this point and not bother to take the bate.......

Not trolling, simply suggesting that because the public transport network is there people who can use it should be made use it.

While this may in some cases be inconvenient, it would be beneficial overall.

Rory28

the.red.baron wrote: »

How long have you been insured, 3rd party for me on a 600cc is 240 this year

2nd year now. Passed my test tho so it should take a drop next year with the full licence. I was honest on my insurance form. I never should have said I will be commuting on it.

Live and learn.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

There are too many people <doing something that annoys me> when there are perfectly suitable <other> options.

Rory28

LIGHTNING wrote: »

If I remember correctly it was a 125 and the insurance was close to 2k

wowzers. how old were you at the time? I got my first bike at 27 so my insurance was never going to be that bad.

Maybe get the train.

Idbatterim

funny I come across this thread, after coincidentally reading the below a few minutes ago. I have a few big issues with this.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/david-mcwilliams/want-to-get-to-grips-with-gridlock-charge-commuters-34663287.html


Firstly so what if you live on a luas or dart line or bus route? does it mean it will take you, where you want to go? Of course not. Nothing here is linked, there is no transport "network" as such...

In terms of the suggestion of higher fuel prices in dublin or whatever to pay for acceptable infrastructure, alternatively, we could simply stop subsidising the rest of the country with billions from dublin. This dublin gets everything s**te, I would argue relative to our scale, we are the hardest done by...

Rory28

Idbatterim wrote: »

I would argue relative to our scale, we are the hardest done by...

Go away out of that.

Mc Love

Bus stop a good 15 min walk from my house. Not ideal when weather is crap. Plus i dont want to be packed onto a bus like a sardine or sit next to someone that has bad hygiene or wants to tell you their life story, yes I know, two extreme cases! Much easier to drive and park across the road from work.

jimgoose

Rory28 wrote: »

Go away out of that.

Ssh, don't antagonise the Cylon Overlord or we mightn't get any more freee potatoes!

amcalester

Idbatterim wrote: »

funny I come across this thread, after coincidentally reading the below a few minutes ago. I have a few big issues with this.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/david-mcwilliams/want-to-get-to-grips-with-gridlock-charge-commuters-34663287.html


Firstly so what if you live on a luas or dart line or bus route? does it mean it will take you, where you want to go? Of course not. Nothing here is linked, there is no transport "network" as such...

In terms of the suggestion of higher fuel prices in dublin or whatever to pay for acceptable infrastructure, alternatively, we could simply stop subsidising the rest of the country with billions from dublin. This dublin gets everything s**te, I would argue relative to our scale, we are the hardest done by...

Mc Love wrote: »

Bus stop a good 15 min walk from my house. Not ideal when weather is crap. Plus i dont want to be packed onto a bus like a sardine or sit next to someone that has bad hygiene or wants to tell you their life story, yes I know, two extreme cases! Much easier to drive and park across the road from work.

These are minor complaints and really are just excuses for taking the car, the network is there people are choosing not to use it.

Special Circumstances

amcalester wrote: »

These are minor complaints and really are just excuses for taking the car, the network is there people are choosing not to use it.

What are the major complaints for not using it? Wherever "there" is?
Plague monkeys and ignorant annoying yokes would be well up in my top 5 reasons I have to say!

Idleater

amcalester wrote: »

Not trolling, simply suggesting that because the public transport network is there people who can use it should be made use it.

While this may in some cases be inconvenient, it would be beneficial overall.

I'd say that there would be more likelihood of the idea working if you reversed it - Incentivise someone that is willing to commute by public transport to do so.

Thereby making it a choice.

What undermines this is the fact that there may not be sufficient public transportation options available to someone willing to accept the incentive.

As a society, removing the stipulation that the public transport service must be run at a profit would allow for unviable routes which would in turn increase the number of viable alternatives to the car centric commute alluded to in the op.

Mc Love

And the last thing I want to do when I'm finished work is walk home, and in this country probably in the rain.

amcalester

Idleater wrote: »

I'd say that there would be more likelihood of the idea working if you reversed it - Incentivise someone that is willing to commute by public transport to do so.

Thereby making it a choice.

What undermines this is the fact that there may not be sufficient public transportation options available to someone willing to accept the incentive.

As a society, removing the stipulation that the public transport service must be run at a profit would allow for unviable routes which would in turn increase the number of viable alternatives to the car centric commute alluded to in the op.

Incentivising doesn't really work in Ireland, besides we already have tax saver tickets to do just that. People are still choosing to use their car.

We've tried the carrot now for the stick.

Idbatterim

ncentivising doesn't really work in Ireland, besides we already have tax saver tickets to do just that. People are still choosing to use their car.

We've tried the carrot now for the stick.

no we havent tried the carrot, we dont have a transport network. do you expect people to be martyrs and take crap public transport for the sake of it?

Metro north and dart underground, were just kicked back five years minimum by the current shower. Throw those into the mix and you are someway towards a semi decent network. Metro west is now off the agenda, so many areas of dublin for example, are not feasible to service with public transport. The car will remain a necessity for many. DU and MN could take large volumes off the road however, massively reducing the gridlock...

_Kaiser_

For me to take public transport to work would involve a bus/train and a significant walk to a LUAS each way.. ball-park (assuming no delays) let's say about 2 hours each way - nevermind the cost
Contrast that to a 55 minute commute by car each way which is still significant, but the price I pay for the ridiculous rental market in Dublin that I'm not prepared/able to cough up for just to be close to the office, but yet I still have to work there thanks to no similar jobs in my current area.

As said above we don't have an integrated public transport network, what we do have is slow, doesn't go where people want without a detour through the city centre, and isn't exactly cheap either of course - fix that and then talk about "forcing" people out of their cars.

amcalester

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

For me to take public transport to work would involve a bus/train and a significant walk to a LUAS each way.. ball-park (assuming no delays) let's say about 2 hours each way - nevermind the cost
Contrast that to a 55 minute commute by car each way which is still significant, but the price I pay for the ridiculous rental market in Dublin that I'm not prepared/able to cough up for just to be close to the office, but yet I still have to work there thanks to no similar jobs in my current area.

As said above we don't have an integrated public transport network, what we do have is slow, doesn't go where people want without a detour through the city centre, and isn't exactly cheap either of course - fix that and then talk about "forcing" people out of their cars.

But it doesn't matter that it's not integrated, the government have spent all this money on the network so people should use it. Currently not enough are so those that aren't should be forced to.

Otherwise all that money will have been wasted.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

In Dublin at least, if you're not going to "an lar" you're goosed. Even if an option is available for you, they are usually jammed and (in the case of the buses) late/too full to stop. If we forced people to use public transport tomorrow it would be a total disaster.

If my option is to stand in a sweaty, stinking bus for 90 minutes each way, or sit in my car for the same 90 minutes I'll take the car,the cost be dammed.

Idbatterim

If my option is to stand in a sweaty, stinking bus for 90 minutes each way, or sit in my car for the same 90 minutes I'll take the car,the cost be dammed.

the notion to me of not having a car, even in dublin is laughable, unless you live very central and can walk to work etc.

you can guarantee there will be industrial unrest with luas and dublin bus etc going forward! relying on them? not a chance...

If my option is to stand in a sweaty, stinking bus for 90 minutes each way, or sit in my car for the same 90 minutes I'll take the car,the cost be dammed.

a lot of new cars can now drive autonomously, you dont even have to be doing anything...

But it doesn't matter that it's not integrated, the government have spent all this money on the network so people should use it. Currently not enough are so those that aren't should be forced to.

Otherwise all that money will have been wasted.

what money has been spent, anything that has been spent is a pittance, the capital budget was decimated at the start of the downturn. To protect other sacred cows. We are still spending the least in europe on our infrastructure on the gdp ration, despite our infrastructure deficit.

Funny enough, a decent transport network, could actually sort out a large chunk of dublins housing crisis...