Heraldry

markothegreat

I own a printing shop and I'm interested in setting up a simple heraldry business as an add on service,
I would like to know does anyone know of any source of information, from what I can see there seems to be limited free info online.
I'm particularly interested in finding a source of high quality coat of arms images so I can start a database! Or software where I could possible design the image myself !
Any help appreciated

tac foley

This might give you a few ideas - http://www.themcs.org/kidsheraldry.htm, but TBH, designing heraldry can be minefield.

This is because so much heraldry actually has been owned or earned and owned, since it was a required part of life in these islands, and the chances of inadvertently causing offence by adopting a style or coat of arms that includes part of a genuine one will land you in hot water from the Court of Heralds in London, and the Scottish equivalent.

Punning heraldry, or the use of a rebus in the design, may well be the way to go. One leg-pull pub sign in a town near us bears a repesenetaion of a pie with a crown on top, and underneath, a large ear.

The name of the pub is The Royal Pioneer. This is a rebus-style heraldic sign.

You have much research to do, ere you start producing heraldry of any kind, to avoid causing offence to either those whose right to bear it is historical, or to the organisations that produce the genuine thing.

tac

snickerpuss

tac foley wrote: »

This might give you a few ideas - http://www.themcs.org/kidsheraldry.htm, but TBH, designing heraldry can be minefield.

This is because so much heraldry actually has been owned or earned and owned, since it was a required part of life in these islands, and the chances of inadvertently causing offence by adopting a style or coat of arms that includes part of a genuine one will land you in hot water from the Court of Heralds in London, and the Scottish equivalent.

Punning heraldry, or the use of a rebus in the design, may well be the way to go. One leg-pull pub sign in a town near us bears a repesenetaion of a pie with a crown on top, and underneath, a large ear.

The name of the pub is The Royal Pioneer. This is a rebus-style heraldic sign.

You have much research to do, ere you start producing heraldry of any kind, to avoid causing offence to either those whose right to bear it is historical, or to the organisations that produce the genuine thing.

tac

Also never mind London and Scotland, Ireland has had a Chief Herald since 1552 who is currently based in the National Library.

pedroeibar1

snickerpuss wrote: »

Also never mind London and Scotland, Ireland has had a Chief Herald since 1552 who is currently based in the National Library.

Ireland has a Chief Herald but only since 1943 ( not since 1552). And he works closely with London and Scotland. Look up Ulster King of Arms.

As Tac said, arms are granted to an individual and are “real property,” i.e. they belong to that individual and cannot be appropriated by another. Using somebody's armorial achievement legally is akin to taking their car and using it (and is governed by the same laws). The heraldic industry has been prostituted for decades, another one will make no difference. The OP could offer to print makey-uppy heraldic headed notepaper for the gullible, once he does not breach copyright. Maybe he could flog them a certificate of national origin and on it print that they are descended from Niall of the Nine Hostages or Brian Boru. Shur it'll be grand, it helps tourism.

Peregrinus

There's nothing unlawful about adopting and using a makey-uppy coat of arms, or about running a business in which you assist people to do so. There's only a problem if you adopt and use a coat of arms which actually belongs to someone else. But, even then, there's only a problem if the someone else complains.

This doesn't happen often. In England, such complaints are heard in the Court of Chivalry, which has only sat once in the past 250 years. (That was in 1954, when Manchester City Corporation successfully sued the Palace Theatre for displaying the Corporation's arms in the theatre.) I'm not aware that there has been any case at all before the Irish courts since 1922. So you may feel that the legal risk involved in running a business supplying heraldic advice and paraphernalia would be small.

dubhthach

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

... on it print that they are descended from Niall of the Nine Hostages or Brian Boru. Shur it'll be grand, it helps tourism.

Well leaving aside Niall Noígiallach -- we at least have genetic result of Baron Inchiquin who has his Y-DNA fully sequence. So bould Brian was R1b-L226+

Peregrinus

dubhthach wrote: »

Well leaving aside Niall Noígiallach -- we at least have genetic result of Baron Inchiquin who has his Y-DNA fully sequence. So bould Brian was R1b-L226+

(Assuming that everyone along the way is the son of the father that he's supposed to be the son of.)

dubhthach

Peregrinus wrote: »

(Assuming that everyone along the way is the son of the father that he's supposed to be the son of.)

Sure, but he does match with other men bearing Dál gCais surnames, some of whom he last shared an ancestor with on order of 500-800 years ago (including other O'Brien's).

Actually there's in general quite a high prevalance of L226 within Dál gCais surnames, the lineage only seems to have undergone expansion on order of 1200-1400 years ago, which make sense as the Dál gCais only really appear into history after this period.
http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=198&star=false

pedroeibar1

If Ancestry have a special offer on DNA testing at the RDS next week I will buy one.
Pedro
(Probably Saxon and whose only hostages are to fortune.)

dubhthach

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

If Ancestry have a special offer on DNA testing at the RDS next week I will buy one.
Pedro
(Probably Saxon and whose only hostages are to fortune.)

Actually got a free kit back when they launched it in Ireland.



thinking of getting my parents tested, would help narrow down perhaps where some of components are coming from.

tac foley

Well, THAT opened real can of worms. TBH, I was not sure that the REPUBLIC of Ireland had not renounced the use of aristocratic titles, it being a REPUBLIC and all that entails.

@Dubhthach - I'm not sure that the OP intended his post to generate interest on the genetic make-up of the inhabitants of the island, but was rather hoping to generate a bit of fun for the current lot and incoming tourists who, like Mr Obama, may or may not have a single cell of genetic material shared with 'Mr Murphy' down the street.

And earn a few bob in the process, of course.

Still, it's nice to have some idea when you came from around 8000 years ago or so, even if it was via the Iberian Peninsula and Southern Scandinavia/Middle Europe.

tac

Peregrinus

tac foley wrote: »

Well, THAT opened real can of worms. TBH, I was not sure that the REPUBLIC of Ireland had not renounced the use of aristocratic titles, it being a REPUBLIC and all that entails.

Titles don't enjoy any legal protection in Ireland. There's nothing to stop you calling yourself "Baron Foley" if you think that will make it easier to get reservations in fashionable restaurants.

pinkypinky

I think it's weird that titles exist in a republic too but there's plenty, both families who've had them for generations and modern....like Michael Smurfit who uses his honorary knighthood.

The real fault lies with Eamon de Valera (like so many things) who encouraged Edward MacLysaght, the first chief herald (rather than Ulster king of arms, which only refers to NI since the founding of the Republic). Some how they decided that arms could be used by anyone with that name, and not just descendants of the armigerous family. Hence, the coasters and plaques market.

OP: I think there's a fair few companies already producing this sort of stuff. There's undeniably a market but do careful research to see if there's enough room for another contender.

pedroeibar1

tac foley wrote: »

TBH, I was not sure that the REPUBLIC of Ireland had not renounced the use of aristocratic titles, it being a REPUBLIC and all that entails.

Having one’s own Arms has nothing to do with aristocracy, anyone or any corporate entity can apply for arms, and all that is needed is the cash to pay the NLI.

Article 40.2.1 of our Constitution prohibits the conferral of any title of nobility by this State, and Article 40.2.2 prohibits acceptance by any citizen of any title of nobility (or honour) without the prior approval of the Government. That was a background-issue in the 'Chiefs of Ireland' row at the time of the McCarthy Mór saga and had a heavy impact on the role/duty of the Office of the Chief Herald (totally discredited at that time).

The French, also a republic, give honours, e.g. the Légion d'Honneur, with different ranks such as Officier (blue ribbon) and the more senior, Chevalier (red ribbon). Their everyday symbols are thread-like flecks worn in the lapel buttonhole. Those awards are a little like the CBE or OBE in the UK and several Irish people have been conferred with them.

Del.Monte

tac foley wrote: »

Well, THAT opened real can of worms. TBH, I was not sure that the REPUBLIC of Ireland had not renounced the use of aristocratic titles, it being a REPUBLIC and all that entails.

@Dubhthach - I'm not sure that the OP intended his post to generate interest on the genetic make-up of the inhabitants of the island, but was rather hoping to generate a bit of fun for the current lot and incoming tourists who, like Mr Obama, may or may not have a single cell of genetic material shared with 'Mr Murphy' down the street.

And earn a few bob in the process, of course.

Still, it's nice to have some idea when you came from around 8000 years ago or so, even if it was via the Iberian Peninsula and Southern Scandinavia/Middle Europe.

tac

The Republic, or any other country, can renounce the use of titles as much as it likes but this will not affect those who believe in or who are interested in such things. Dinosaurs like me.

An interesting snippet about the Greek monarchy on Wiki illustrates this point:

The Greek monarchy was abolished by the then-ruling military regime on 1 June 1973, an act that was confirmed by plebiscite on 8 December 1974 after the regime's fall. The title of king is used by the last reigning monarch, Constantine II (r. 1964–1973). His son, the Crown Prince Pavlos, who was born in 1967, is the heir apparent to the pretended title.

tac foley

Peregrinus wrote: »

Titles don't enjoy any legal protection in Ireland. There's nothing to stop you calling yourself "Baron Foley" if you think that will make it easier to get reservations in fashionable restaurants.

Ah, you mean like 'Baron' Shortt? :rolleyes:

'nuff said.

tac